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Plaese, do not initiate chain reactions you can't get outside of blast radius from.

Smoke and Mirrors.

It would be dangerous as hell, but if we could pull it off, if we could unravel the Skaven's great Warpstone spike, the one they use to select members of the Council of Thirteen... that would be the coup to end all coups, a legendary achievement. Still this is a deed for very very late game Mathilde if it's posibile at all.
 
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As said previously, no fool makes his way up to Magister, and it's a fool that would want to research and steal Skaven tech without the capabilities of pulling these heists off or penetrating undetected deeply into Skaven territory. If Johaan is planning to heist weapons from the Skaven, it's very likely he has prepared and is confident of his abilities to get into Skaven territory and smuggle weapons and samples out.

In any case, we don't know how good Johaan actually is as an infiltrator of course, but this is not the same as saying confidently: Johaan is no infiltrator. On the sum of probabilities however, Johaan is more likely capable of infiltration than not with regards to Skaven nests, if he, as a Magister, intends to poke around at the Skaven. Remember, we don't have a full grasp of Johaan's full capabilities, because he was masquerading as a journeyman.
Indeed, one of the big reasons to accompany him is to learn his techniques.
 
Except that I've brought up the point, several times, that poking at the skaven is likely to increase that very risk. And the only argument I've heard in response is that if we poke at skaven tech with Johann we will cripple their ability to attack, despite that not being his desire and certainly not being an explicit part of the action itself. Again, the general problem I see is that people aren't consider what happens when an option fails and fails badly, only what happens if it succeeds and succeeds wildly. Hence my feeling that some bad failure now might be good.
  • I disagre on the first point. I don't feel anything, accept possibly a nat 1, will cause an orginised, large scale responce from Clan Mors.
  • BoneyM has stated that he takes the intention of the Plan maker and the discussion of the thread about what they want actions to accomplish into account. It was just before this vote in fact.
 
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Neither of the currently winning plans really do it for me, mostly because I think Citadel Focus would be better off with Johann poking Skyre while Matilda pokes Mors, but I do perfer it to having Johann write the Waaagh! Paper, because I want Matilda to write that paper Solo and get maximum benefit from it since we're the one with Windsage and WaaaghBane.

[X] Plan Citadel Focus
 
Doing things the Dwarven way may require doing infrastructure differently than the Umgi would set it up, and that's easiest fixed before the factory's finished.

I mean that might be true but that's at worst a small waste in money it's not a big concern for an organisation that's making as much as it is and the benefit of jumping to dwarven quality will bring more money regardless? iirc it also isn't part of the normal plan posts is it? Spending favour like that happens post results?
 
Smoke and Mirrors.

It would be dangerous as hell, but if we could pull it off, if we could unravel the Skaven's great Warpstone spike, the one they use to select members of the Council of Thirteen... that would be the coup to end all coups, a legendary achievement. Still this is a deed for very very late game Mathilde if it's posibile at all.

Smoke and Mirrors has a teleportation range of 100 yards per teleport. The explosion of all Warpstone in Skavenblight would consume us with or without Smoke and Mirrors.
 
Smoke and Mirrors has a teleportation range of 100 yards per teleport. The explosion of all Warpstone in Skavenblight would consume us with or without Smoke and Mirrors.

The whole point is that it's a chain reaction, so we could probably set it off from a fair distance away by leaving a warpstone "fuse" leading up into the area. Obviously, this would have to be a late endgame situation with a ton of leadup building up to it - I just thought it was amusing that one of the largest enemies of man may have built their entire society around what is effectively a giant pile of high explosives.

(It also depends on there not being a way to protect against the effect, so we should read the rest of the Liber Mortis before getting too attached to the idea.)
 
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The whole point is that it's a chain reaction, so we could probably set it off from a fair distance away by leaving a warpstone "fuse" leading up into the area. Obviously, this would have to be a late endgame situation with a ton of leadup building up to it - I just thought it was amusing that one of the largest enemies of man may have built their entire society around what is effectively a giant pile of high explosives.

If it were that easy to kill them then Nagash would have destroyed them reminder that the Skaven actually defeated Nagash via the usage of the Fell Blade. Every Dhar secret we're picking up from the Liber Mortis Nagash knew. Chances are Warpstone is quasi stable in a different way to Dhar and can't be detonated with the same trick.
 
The whole point is that it's a chain reaction, so we could probably set it off from a fair distance away by leaving a warpstone "fuse" leading up into the area. Obviously, this would have to be a late endgame situation with a ton of leadup building up to it - I just thought it was amusing that one of the largest enemies of man may have built their entire society around what is effectively a giant pile of high explosives.

A giant pile of high explosives you have to be a skilled Dhar-user (in ability) if not practice to properly set off.
 
Smoke and Mirrors has a teleportation range of 100 yards per teleport. The explosion of all Warpstone in Skavenblight would consume us with or without Smoke and Mirrors.

We'd need to do something crazy like pirate Skitterleap from Clan Eshin's Lore of Stealth and adapt it to work with snake juice rather than Dhar. When you have a magic telescope line of sight range becomes pretty amazing when the city you're in is in sight of a major mountain range. One hop to get you to the peak of the tallest mountain and the next to jump to the other side of the range.
 
The whole point is that it's a chain reaction, so we could probably set it off from a fair distance away by leaving a warpstone "fuse" leading up into the area. Obviously, this would have to be a late endgame situation with a ton of leadup building up to it - I just thought it was amusing that one of the largest enemies of man may have built their entire society around what is effectively a giant pile of high explosives.

I'm 90% sure that detonating all of Skavenblight's warpstone and thus killing all of its Skaven in a singular moment of concentrated dark magic and death would just lead to a third permanent portal to the Realm of Chaos on Mallus. The 10% is various other horrifying outcomes.
 
@BoneyM, will Johann do something Skaven-related in his free time if we task him with something else? If yes, then can we task him with something else and tag along with him when he goes to Skavens in his free time? Basically can we change his task in "Citadel focus" and then still go with him to Skaven as one of our actions?

I'm sorry if it comes as the attempt to game the system, but it sounds reasonable enough.
 
About 5 pages too late, but I have opinions on Johann/Skaventech
"How can you trust someone who tells lies?" asks Mathilde.

"You just can't," replies Ranald, the God of Lies.
"How can you trust someone?" asks Mathilde.

"You just can't." replies Lord Algard, the Patriarch of the Grey College.
Sad as I am, I have to disagree with these august figures, but it is not the lying which makes me distrust Johann. It is that I don't know why he lied. If we knew he was a lazy bum who wanted to be assigned easier tasks we could work with that. If we knew he thought he was on a secret mission and wanted to keep it secret even from allies, we could be sure this is no longer the case. However, as long as we don't know why he lied, I cannot trust him not to lie again in the future.

Seriously, why is the actual task he is doing the afterthought here? A full study on skaven warptech would be a rare, revolutionary, and tactcally relevant publication, very worth investing an action on.
I put Johann investigating Skaventech in the same category as Mathilde taking the Amberlings to the spiders before before in the beginning: It is potentially useful, it fits his area of expertise, and it may become an official "task" in the future.

I consider our responsibilities as follows:

1. Assigned task:
2. Anything directly in our area of responsibility.
3. Anything that our expertise may apply to.

If Belegar assigns a task, this is basically stamping "URGENT" on it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anything related to wizards is also her job. Building a library and research centers is her job. If a Wizard has or causes trouble somewhere, taking care of it will be Magister Weber's responsibility.
Lastly, anything we can help with is strictly optional, but still something we should do (and are doing). They are like optional mission objectives in video games, and may unlock extra missions or other stuff. (I.e.: Mapping the Skaven gave extra points and unlocked Gromril.)


I consider investigating Skaventech to be one of the more interesting and promising "missions" in category 3. I will drop it the moment we need Johann for a more urgent or interesting task, but I also want him to keep working on this optional mission whenever he is available.

In fact, one of the reasons I voted for getting Johann was because I wanted him to research Skaventech under Mathilde's supervision. Him doing that is exactly why I wanted him in that position.


Pretty literally? Skaventech is his personal pet project/thesis/etc.
Going to the Spiders with the Amberlings was Mathilde"s pet project until Belegar mad it an official task. Surveying the Skaven territories is still Mathilde's pet project. I consider both of those to have been useful work, just as I consider Johann investigating the enemy's tech.
 
Keep in mind the action categories are for organizational purposes only. They don't hold inherent meaning.

So our task:
"If you can figure out a means of communication that works after your Gorzhufokri leave and find them a place behind our defences that doesn't let them crawl into anyone's beds if they're of a mind, they can stay. Otherwise, point them into the Underway with a hearty goodbye."
We have two tasks:
1) Figure out a means of communications that don't rely on two temporary employees. We have a few turns to do this before Esbern and Seija wander off, and we have, Word of Boney, the option to try to retain them before they go.
1.1) Actions which directly advance this:
[ ] Current Task: Have Maximilian teach the We written Reikspiel.
[ ] Current Task: Have Johann teach the We written Reikspiel.
[ ] Teach the We written Khazalid.
[ ] Teach the We written Reikspiel.
[ ] Teach the We Dwarven semaphore.
[ ] Deliver King Belegar's request to the College for a translation item (does not cost an action).
[ ] Request the translation item yourself (does not cost an action; converts 3 College Favour to Dwarf Favour).

As a non-urgent task we do not need to take more than one action in this category, and have a few turns to hash something out.

Actions which indirectly advance this:
2) Resettle the Spiders somewhere thats not a dwarf housing estate. OR send them off with our regards.
2.1) Actions which directly advance this:
[ ] Help the We establish their new nest below the Citadel.
[ ] Help the We establish their new nest below Karag Lhune.
[ ] Help the We establish their new nest below Karag Nar.

2.2) Actions which indirectly/circumstantially advance this:
[ ] Allow him to spend all his time investigating Clan Mors.
[ ] You've mapped the territory of Clan Mors. Go down there and cause some havoc.
[ ] You've mapped the territory of Clan Mors. Go down there and see what you can acquire.

If we settle the spiders into Citadel zone, disrupting Clan Mors lets the spiders get established better.

[ ] Investigate underneath Karag Lhune: the Lhune Deeps and the Grand Abyss.

If we settle the spiders into Karag Lhune, this helps identify what food sources they can tap and what threats they need to beware of.

[ ] The Second Secret of Dhar teaches how to collapse it upon itself. Practice upon local Dhar taint, and see if this works with Warpstone.

If we settle the spiders into the Citadel zone AND take actions to disrupt Clan Mors. Explodifying their warpstone may potentially help. A lot of ifs here though.

Actions in the Current category which doesn't actually advance the mission:
[ ] Current Task: Have Maximilian perform or assist with spider autopsies.
[ ] Current Task: Have Maximilian investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.
[ ] Current Task: Have Johann perform or assist with spider autopsies.
[ ] Current Task: Have Johann investigate the properties of the spiders' webs.
[ ] Study the webs the We produce.
[ ] Perform a series of autopsies upon the corpses of the We; they have confirmed they are okay with this, and would otherwise simply eat them.

None of these actually advance the task, these are academic curiosities to write papers for OR determine what other ways we can benefit from spiderfriends.

Now, heres the thing:

At the moment the two leading plans spread us about doing a dozen different things, some of which I judge to be very risky; it just so happens that one of those is in my opinion less risky than the other. Not that is' good, but that if we fail at a number of things in it it puts less on the table. But they each have way too many moving parts doing way too many different things.
Doing a dozen different things is a given. We cannot directly place multiple actions into an activity. We can choose multiple options, but its also not just the sum of their cumulative probabilities either.
We are expected to invest between 2 to 4 actions into a task, including subordinate tasks.

This turn that means we have only 2 directly contributing actions, which cannot be taken with variants of themselves for obvious reasons:
-Teach Spiders X language with Y character.
-Help Spiders migrate to X location.

So how do we get that last 2 actions for full commitment?
You take actions which can logically project support.
We can help with the language task by assigning multiple characters to it, which can grant a second roll to succeed. However the language task is only urgent on the 2-3 turn range, not the 1 turn range, and Max/Johann cooperation is poor enough to potentially backfire. So nothing there.

So whats left is helping the spiders migrate.
How then, can we help them migrate?
What are the failure points?
-The spiders leaving the Chiselwards isn't a problem, and it is unlikely that they are interrupted moving to the Citadel, the Valley is already walled off so the trolls won't come, and the halflings in the valley are just going to give Mathilde a bemused look as she goes spiderherding.
-Settling into the Citadel basement shouldn't be a major problem. There are complications in that there are vaults and stuff down there, but theres no dwarves living there and spiders currently only value food and don't care about metal or tools.
-Starting up the spiders hunting for food is a potential failure point. If they can't acquire Many-Food, the alliance is poof. We do not have enough in the way of herd animals to feed them that way yet. If the food is too good at fighting back, the spiders might not reach the numbers needed to outskaven the Skaven.
--Therefore, we can help by weakening the food in the area they are in. Skaven without flamethrowers are really a terrible match against giant spiders.

Net result:
3 actions directly contributing to job taken: 2 translation actions, and 1 resettlement action.
2 actions taken supporting the resettlement action. As indirect assistance we can count it as half-an-action towards the job, because we're getting other stuff done while doing them too.

Investment level perceived: 4 actions. A respectable effort, if things go wrong it cannot reasonably be said that Mathilde could have tried harder than this..
 
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