Relatively Simple - Magic 2 required to learn, Magic 3 to cast reliably.
Curse of Rust: One nearby metal item the size of a breastplate or smaller becomes pitted and useless.
Fault of Form: A single weapon temporarily becomes less suited to combat; any inherent flaws, unreliability or dangers are greatly increased.
Moderately Complicated - Magic 3 required to learn, Magic 5 to cast reliably.
Law of Age: A solid, inanimate object becomes brittle and much easier to break for several minutes.
Fiendishly Complex - Magic 5 required to learn, Magic 7 to cast reliably.
Law of Gold: Temporarily suppresses the abilities of a magical item.
Johann can:
-Instantly destroy any relatively small mundane item.
-Cause Clan Mors warpstone (already notoriously unstable) powered guns to explosively fail when used.
-Make larger items brittle and weak, causing them to be incredibly easy to destroy, or even fail under the forces they're normally exposed to.
-Straight up turn the magic on some items off. (Potentially, it's a Fiendish spell, he might not know it).
I expect that to be incredibly effective at sabotage.
This comes down to the 'Mathilde is not a robot' issue. We've also been told that Johann is not an idiot and so we know he will have a way of infiltrating skaven settlements, stealing their stuff, and getting away. Personally I'm pretty curious about what that is.
Well, maybe, I am somewhat interested in going with him too - if only to ensure he is actually capable of getting in and out without aggroing all Skaven on dwarfs or their allies.
I am just really not convinced that not giving Johann any work relevant to Belegar's task is sensible.
I'll admit that in a moment of frustration I spoke a little more blithely than my actual thoughts ran, but the two statements are not entirely incompatible; the latter is a clarification. I don't want failure, but I think it might be good for us as a thread to experience it on a large scale, myself included, before we get any more complacent. Basically, my frustration is that basically none of the response to me have actually addressed my concerns about failure, instead the assume success. Maybe that's my own fault, maybe I haven't expressed them clearly enough, but they still haven't been addressed.
Part of the stated reasons, to my understanding, for scouting/stealing/spoiling enemy counter attacks with Johann is assuming the possiblity of faliure/counter-attack from the skaven against our action to relocate the We.
As said previously, no fool makes his way up to Magister, and it's a fool that would want to research and steal Skaven tech without the capabilities of pulling these heists off or penetrating undetected deeply into Skaven territory. If Johaan is planning to heist weapons from the Skaven, it's very likely he has prepared and is confident of his abilities to get into Skaven territory and smuggle weapons and samples out.
In any case, we don't know how good Johaan actually is as an infiltrator of course, but this is not the same as saying confidently: Johaan is no infiltrator. On the sum of probabilities however, Johaan is more likely capable of infiltration than not with regards to Skaven nests, if he, as a Magister, intends to poke around at the Skaven. Remember, we don't have a full grasp of Johaan's full capabilities, because he was masquerading as a journeyman.
As said previously, no fool makes his way up to Magister, and it's a fool that would want to research and steal Skaven tech without the capabilities of pulling these heists off or penetrating undetected deeply into Skaven territory. If Johaan is planning to heist weapons from the Skaven, it's very likely he has prepared and is confident of his abilities to get into Skaven territory and smuggle weapons and samples out.
In any case, we don't know how good Johaan actually is as an infiltrator of course, but this is not the same as saying confidently: Johaan is no infiltrator. On the sum of probabilities however, Johaan is more likely capable of infiltration than not with regards to Skaven nests, if he, as a Magister, intends to poke around at the Skaven.
Part of the stated reasons, to my understanding, for scouting/stealing/spoiling enemy counter attacks with Johann is assuming the possiblity of faliure/counter-attack from the skaven against our action to relocate the We.
Except that I've brought up the point, several times, that poking at the skaven is likely to increase that very risk. And the only argument I've heard in response is that if we poke at skaven tech with Johann we will cripple their ability to attack, despite that not being his desire and certainly not being an explicit part of the action itself. Again, the general problem I see is that people aren't consider what happens when an option fails and fails badly, only what happens if it succeeds and succeeds wildly. Hence my feeling that some bad failure now might be good.
It's been not-particularly-subtly hinted by Boney that he has some means of sneaking around - he presumably had a plan for getting Skaven tech more involved than "Leeroy Jenkins into the tunnels" when the Gold College approved this trip. For all we know he spent his College Favors on a ring of invisibility from the Greys.
In the worst case scenario, as long as he doesn't have any passive spells running, we can presumably just Substance of Shadow him.
Between the two leading plans, I find that the Not Really Preliminary Plan to be more to my taste. But, though I understand the importance of maintaining complete honesty in dwarfen trade, I think that would already be pretty apparent, enough that we don't have to instill it immediately. This is probably our last chance to lean on our Dwarfen Favor to improve the Stirland gun factory? After all, if we raise the quality enough, we can open up real dwarfen gun trades, to help bolster K8P's position.
It's not that bad, remember the chain reaction has to jump from Dhar source to Dhar source and stone grounds the magical energies, so we can just blow up everything in a room safely as long as there is no warpstone bridge out of said room.
Unless he has something like an alchemical magic item that uses Chamon to direct Ulgu to replicate that effect, for example. There's a reason that the Gold College make the best enchanters, and it's because they can create magic items that use any and all of the winds if they have the right reagents.
When Mathilde takes Johann and disappears off into the depths beneath the Citadel to mess with skaven at the same time as the We are relocating their hunting grounds there, what's the natural conclusion to draw. Their actions, as seen by an outside observer, should look like they're dedicating significant effort and taking meaningful risks to accomplish the task he's set. Given what Mathilde did last turn if they end up with a mountain of loot it will just look like one of those wizard things to the dwarves.
It's been not-particularly-subtly hinted by Boney that he has some means of sneaking around - he presumably had a plan for getting Skaven tech more involved than "Leeroy Jenkins into the tunnels" when the Gold College approved this trip. For all we know he spent his College Favors on a ring of invisibility from the Greys.
In the worst case scenario, as long as he doesn't have any passive spells running, we can presumably just Substance of Shadow him.
I mean, I do not mind going with him. Part to ensure he is actually capable, part to see what's his plan, part to maybe kill some Skaven or steal another gromril suit of armor.
I am arguing against not giving him any work to do with Belegar's current task.
Between the two leading plans, I find that the Not Really Preliminary Plan to be more to my taste. But, though I understand the importance of maintaining complete honesty in dwarfen trade, I think that would already be pretty apparent, enough that we don't have to instill it immediately. This is probably our last chance to lean on our Dwarfen Favor to improve the Stirland gun factory? After all, if we raise the quality enough, we can open up real dwarfen gun trades, to help bolster K8P's position.
Between the two leading plans, I find that the Not Really Preliminary Plan to be more to my taste. But, though I understand the importance of maintaining complete honesty in dwarfen trade, I think that would already be pretty apparent, enough that we don't have to instill it immediately. This is probably our last chance to lean on our Dwarfen Favor to improve the Stirland gun factory? After all, if we raise the quality enough, we can open up real dwarfen gun trades, to help bolster K8P's position.
Well, we're already 6 months into the construction of the factory. At a year in, it might not be possible to interene to improve quality. And by the turn after next, it will be totally complete.
When Mathilde takes Johann and disappears off into the depths beneath the Citadel to mess with skaven at the same time as the We are relocating their hunting grounds there, what's the natural conclusion to draw. Their actions, as seen by an outside observer, should look like they're dedicating significant effort and taking meaningful risks to accomplish the task he's set. Given what Mathilde did last turn if they end up with a mountain of loot it will just look like one of those wizard things to the dwarves.
Doubt that loot Johann is looking for is comparable to Literal Gromril in dwarf eyes. We are not presenting dorfs with demon blood as a proof of our progress, after all, and warpstonetech of rats is liable to be about the same in dwarf eyes.
Task is to get them out of Hold proper and to teach them communication. The only real success is doing just that, looking at what we were doing matters mostly if we fail to deliver and dorfs look into whether we even tried.
Well, we're already 6 months into the construction of the factory. At a year in, it might not be possible to interene to improve quality. And by the turn after next, it will be totally complete.
I would expect it to have more to do with the skills of the people involved in the factory tbh, I expect getting to dwarf quality would involve a dwarven trainer heading out and teaching the Umgi to be less Umgi.
Doubt that loot Johann is looking for is comparable to Literal Gromril in dwarf eyes. We are not presenting dorfs with demon blood as a proof of our progress, after all, and warpstonetech of rats is liable to be about the same in dwarf eyes.
Task is to get them out of Hold proper and to teach them communication. The only real success is doing just that, looking at what we were doing matters mostly if we fail to deliver and dorfs look into whether we even tried.
Succeeding at the task is relocating them somewhere inside the dwarf held area of the hold so they can nest behind the front lines but away from the current inhabitants living quarters while also giving them means to communicate.
A partial failure would be to just get them outside the hold.
A complete failure would be to fail to even get them to move.
We can only get them to stay as an ally within the dwarves' section of the hold if we can ensure that they have an ample supply of meat, which means their hunting needs to be successful, as the hold has no spare livestock to feed them. Having Mathilde and Johann running rampant over the Under Citadel backed by the Gambler's face seems a sensible way of going about making sure they succeed at hunting.
I mean, I do not mind going with him. Part to ensure he is actually capable, part to see what's his plan, part to maybe kill some Skaven or steal another gromril suit of armor.
I am arguing against not giving him any work to do with Belegar's current task.
