Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Boney]

@Boney Regardless of how it'll be perceived, which option does Mathilde believe will help the most people in Praag?

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I'll know what Mathilde believes when the vote closes.

Hm, it's odd that nobody seems to have given Mathilde a straight answer to this question yet. We're here, in Praag, with a waystone, and two witches, and everyone is still keeping quiet about the nexus' location. I get that it's a national security issue, but surely someone should have told us by now?

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Most of the people who knew Praag's secrets died in its defence, including practically all of the magic-users of the Fire Spire. The Ice Witches, who should be on top of that sort of thing, have been suppressed in Kislev for seven generations.

I do not buy that, not even a little bit, these things are too expensive to deploy in troll country and they are too expensive to deploy for marginal increases to the land fertility of northern Kislev. There is no way for Boris to grasp just how bloody expensive they are since he is not a magician so he is just wrong in wanting that as far as I'm concerned.

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Marginal grazeland is barely better than nothing, but is hugely better than Chaos wastes.

I feel like our conceptions of the time scales involved are too different to make reasonable conversation about the pros and cons, then. I'm operating on the assumption that results will be visible next turn, and you've implied that you think it'll occur after a few decades.

@Boney, do we have any idea what the timescale is imagined to look like? I feel like we should at least have an idea of what it would look like operating inside some spherical tainted areas, with our +15 to Waystones.

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It depends entirely on factors outside Mathilde's control and knowledge, most important being how fast the Waystones are produced, which is entirely a product on how much effort, money, and influence Boris initially and the Z'ra once it's proven put into lining up the required expertise.

 

[Prime 2.0]

The votes very directly say which one will resonate with the citizens of praag.

Its oldtown.

 

[pucflek]

The votes very directly say which one will resonate with the citizens of praag.

Its oldtown.

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It says which one will be immediate people pleaser and yes, as i said that part makes sense.

I maintain my opinion. The people that stayed and some that resettled Praag are hardasses and if they minded casualties that much, they would be in Kislev, Erengard or in some other village miles and miles away from the place that makes ground zero of chernobyl immediately post meltdown look like pleasant picnic park. That they are not tells us very clearly on where they stand on "should i poke it for more ancestral ground?" scale and anything that helps with it should be accounted for as a positive as well.

This is not a sentiment that is transferablle to many places on the planet. Maybe Sylvania, maybe Moussilon. Nowhere else are people as doggedly determinated to live in face of such bullshit despite centuries of proof that its going to exact heavy toll.

 

[Nimbus]

Well, this looks close. Strong arguments being put forward on either side…

It's important to remember that there will be Waystones at the Karlsbridge and the Bridge of Death. The good that the latter will do in the long term will happen regardless of what we choose. As such, I would contend that we should operate on the appropriate timescales: get the most we can out of the short-term, politically savvy move by setting up at the Karlsbridge, then use that goodwill to push on with the long-term plan for Praag, and the Old World, as a whole.*

This applies in several ways.

• I have argued before that the establishment of the Project's inaugural Waystone should be as grand and publicised an event as possible. While we could invite nobles and dignitaries to Praag to put the Waystone at the Bridge of Death, putting political elites on the very edge of a place so fundamentally tainted with Chaos carries unavoidable risks; more likely, any event would have to be conducted at a distance, possibly out of sight of the Waystone itself. A Waystone at the Karlsbridge is far more suited to this; being both less under Chaos' direct influence and in spitting distance of the Magnus Gardens, which would be ideal for a grand ceremonial occasion of this kind (and comes with the benefit of aptly symbolising the shared fight against Chaos), would allow those attending to actually see the Waystone as it's being set up. That immediacy shouldn't be discounted. We want the representatives of the Old World's various polities to go back home and tell the story of the Project to the great and the good; giving them the opportunity to properly lay eyes on its work is far better for that than giving them a glimpse at a distance or telling them about it secondhand.
  
  
• Points have already been made that setting up the Waystone at the Bridge of Death and pushing directly into the New Town will be costly by virtue of its proximity to the heart of the Chaotic influence in Praag and the necessity of deploying soldiers there, not because the Waystone will itself draw Chaos to it. Conversely, it has been posited that this may cause bad publicity by either the conflation of these factors or merely the brute fact of the death toll. Leaving aside each of these arguments, I would suggest that the soldiers themselves are of particular importance here, since their capability will be crucial to any deployment into New Town. Doing so first, however, means that all they have to go on as to why they're risking their lives is the word of a few wizards that a bunch of big stones will solve Praag's problems. Inertia is a powerful force; never having known anything but the city-as-Chaosscape, there is a concern that the soldiery may see the whole endeavour as pointless or doomed, which risks undermining morale during the rollout's initial stages and in turn causing reverses and delays (which may further harm morale). In a worst case scenario, the entire effort might stall; more likely, it will be bloodier than it could be. By contrast, if said soldiers see the impact of the Waystones in the Old Town first, they will know exactly what they are fighting for, will fight all the harder for it and will bear any losses more easily. That will, in turn, give the rollout into the New Town far more momentum when it happens and hopefully allow the subsequent narrative to become focused on the righteousness and value of the cause rather than, as it would if the New Town push was done first, the toll it took.
  
  
• MrHobbit has suggested that any problems in convincing political elites in the Old World of the Waystone Project's utility, even if the cost of a push into New Town becomes widely known before the success of the effort, will be lessened by the presence of wizards as political advisors to many of said elites. This is true to an extent, especially (as MrHobbit also noted) in Kislev and Bretonnia where mages have substantial institutional and cultural sway. That said, I think that we shouldn't be relying on that valuable resource to compensate for the Project appearing distasteful; we should be capitalising on it by giving the mages and intellectuals of the Old World as unambiguous a demonstration of the Project's success as possible so that they can advocate for it effectively. As argued above, the best way to do this is by showing the world an initial, clear victory for the project in Praag. If others happen to bring the news South and West and those advisors suddenly have allies arguing for the same thing, so much the better!
  • Notably in Praag, because that name is far more likely to be known by people in the Empire or Bretonnia, or even in other parts of Kislev, than any particular district of the city. Whether the initial deployment goes well or poorly, it will be a success or failure in Praag, The Cursed City, that is spoken of, not that the blight of Chaos was somewhat weaker in the bit of Praag that the Waystones are being set up in or that the endeavour was particularly bold in trying to tackle New Town first and that that justifies the lives lost. The message that the Project sends here will, inevitably, be filed down by memory, rumour and lack of local knowledge to its most basic; let's make sure that that basic message is a positive one.

With all that said, then:

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

*The approximate timescale, of course, weighs on a lot of the above points. For example, if deployment is swift enough that Waystones are being put into the New Town before any visible effect becomes clear in the Old Town, there will be little of the advantage for morale that the second point describes.

 

[Alliterate]

This is a political decision, not a question of what the ultimate end state of deployment will be, even around Praag.

the first Waystone is going to attract significantly more attention than the twentieth, and establishing the right sort of reputation with it could make your future endeavours a great deal easier.

The first, and also the least offensive and most politically resonant, is to place the first Waystone underneath the Karlsbridge

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The information we need to make the best decision for the Project as a whole, and our ambitions for it across the Old World, is spelled out right there in the post. The most politically resonant choice is also least offensive choice, raising the fewest red flags for other leaders who may need more persuasion than the Z'ra of Praag. The choice appears very clear to me.

[x] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[pucflek]

t seems to serve as an eye-opening experience for the two, as Zlata had thought that the hard-worn stubbornness of a people who only know a life under siege only existed in Kislev, and Cadaeth had required several patient evenings explaining to her that no, there really are no other defences beyond the scant few that are plainly visible. She'd been rather taken aback when you told her that if something came from the east that those defences could not handle, then in all likelihood any of the local population that couldn't or wouldn't flee would die. She'd been significantly more taken aback when she heard the same from a local, who then told her that it had happened twice in the past century, but not to worry, if it happened again the restless dead wouldn't have long to chew on their bones before the Hunter's Daughter would bring the army down upon them.

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Emphasis mine. This is the more fatalistic sort of people we deal with. Except Praagites don´t stay because they can´t run, they actively stayed or resettled a city that bleeds at night. They are insane even by Kislev standards. Revanchism emphasis is definitely a viable path.

 

[Glau]

So show them revanchism is possible. By giving them a haven in the cursed city, rather than more cursed city that has become marginally more habitable

 

[Astro Ambulance]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town

 

[pucflek]

So show them revanchism is possible. By giving them a haven in the cursed city, rather than more cursed city that has become marginally more habitable

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What haven, they already have that, they live in it just fine, the odd additional hand or two nonwithstanding. They already reclaimed that part, but entire parts of their city do not call themselves their city. Much bigger problem.

 

[lentil]

We built waystones to help people and get rid of chaos. Both are going to happen, but the first waystone is going to influence what people think of, and I'd rather they think of waystones as being helpful.

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[hugo239111]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town
Honestly was torn between this and the Old Town. I have to go with the bridge of Death for one very specific reason.

This isn't just about what is best for Kislev, this is a political show of force, tangible results play hard into the minds of a population. The Tsar made it very clear that his concern is with Kislev as a whole, He measures time in how many winters since the great war against chaos in his speech. That has to mean something, this will be the edge, the bridge between old and new and that is important. We are doing more than simply fortifying what we currently have, (that's how I view the Old town despite it's advantages) to staking a claim that we are fighting back. We have the tools to win against you bastards.

Not to mention despite the fact that it would have to be defended it would rouse the actions of the stealthier chaos agents. Sure it will get bum rushed by nearly all the corrupted in the New town, but that includes saboteurs, poisoners, liars and cheats that corrupt the residents. People who are hindering the reconstruction of Praag by their mere presence, once hidden now revealed by the Tsar and his agents.

 

[Mr Apollo]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town

 

[Glau]

What haven, they already have that, they live in it just fine, the odd additional hand or two nonwithstanding. They already reclaimed that part,

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Ummm. I think you and I have very different definitions of "just fine", and I think I've got textual support in this:

Least tainted in Praag is still fairly tainted by any sane estimation

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So I'd like to keep our estimations sane so we stay on the same page and don't fly off I'm opposite directions from opposing hyperbole.

 

[Nimbus]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town
Honestly was torn between this and the Old Town. I have to go with the bridge of Death for one very specific reason.

This isn't just about what is best for Kislev, this is a political show of force, tangible results play hard into the minds of a population. The Tsar made it very clear that his concern is with Kislev as a whole, He measures time in how many winters since the great war against chaos in his speech. That has to mean something, this will be the edge, the bridge between old and new and that is important. We are doing more than simply fortifying what we currently have, (that's how I view the Old town despite it's advantages) to staking a claim that we are fighting back. We have the tools to win against you bastards.

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I think it might get lost in the wall of text that was my previous post, so I'll lay it out here on its own: this line of argument depends on people outside Praag being aware of the differences between areas in the city and the message about the progress being made finding its way to them with that level of detail. Each, at least to me, seems unlikely. As such, the statement being made isn't pushing back Chaos in the Old Town or the New Town; the statement being made is pushing back Chaos in Praag, The Cursed City, and that is more than statement enough!

 

[Rockeye]

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[Alliterate]

This isn't just about what is best for Kislev, this is a political show of force, tangible results play hard into the minds of a population.

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That may help Praag, and Kislev even. But New Town will be covered by a successful rollout whatever we vote for.

The New Town choice however sends the message that the establishment of Waystones is for the most corrupted areas you rule, where you will have to fight tooth and nail to establish each new stone, and may cause a reaction to spill out of those zones. It says to leaders that embarking on a Waystone 2.0 rollout program demands the sincere material commitment to taking and holding those dark areas, that Waystones are not things that can simply be put up around populated areas to make the lives of your existing populace better without that martial commitment. Is that the message we want to send? I personally don't think it's the best for encouraging widespread deployment.

 

[Derpmind]

I'll know what Mathilde believes when the vote closes.

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That's fair enough, I get that this is up to us. Just, the reason I asked is that the vote options and the way Mathilde discusses them are entirely about the political perception. She's choosing how she presents things, and only that. How much each option will help the people of Praag themselves isn't really something she's put much consideration into, or if she has, it's a strictly secondary. But as a voter, I've found that I personally care less about the politics side of things. The priority to me would be which choice would have the most utility for the people who live in Praag. That's the axis I would prefer to decide upon, but it's not one that the narrative puts direct guidance or focus on.

It's an inherently political choice and I get that, but I guess that's just not me.

 

[pucflek]

Ummm. I think you and I have very different definitions of "just fine", and I think I've got textual support in this:



So I'd like to keep our estimations sane so we stay on the same page and don't fly off I'm opposite directions from opposing hyperbole.

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Thats your problem. You think sane. But people chose to live there. They realize its fucked, but they still would rather piss against a hurricane than admit chaos this victory. And they are succeeding.

People make illogical decisions all the time given sufficient emotional prompting and apparently non-insignificant part of Kislev saw the state of Praag and thought "free real estate". Is that really population you want to ascribe the quoted reasoning to?

 

[hugo239111]

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I understand your points, that's why I waffled very hard but on the second read I was reminded of something that made me chose that for my vote.

There are internal politics just as much as external.

Mathilde has seen the proof of it all around her and has seen it in Kislev. There are people who consider themselves Roppsmen, the Gospoders know this wasn't their homeland. Hell, in the most recent threadmark it is made clear that Praag is considered an Ungol city over a Gospoder city. The waystone project is meant to show everyone the benefits that non chaos can offer.

I freely admit I may be misremembering this bit but I believe it was the Ice witch who travelled with us to the wastes who said "Too savage for the south, not savage enough for the Norscans." or something to that effect. The Ungol's are a group of people who are a large minority in what was their former homeland. Pushed out of the fertile south and Ostermark, then pushed to the very edges of Kislev, they have tribes who roam the troll country. They have kin who follow chaos openly. 3 cities and 4 oblasts.

Tsar Boris made a point to try to say that he wants Kislev strong and united. A active move to secure what has always been a somewhat reluctant ally and sometimes enemy into your camp cannot hurt.

 

[Andres]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town

This is necessary practice for when Boris' daughter invades the Realms of Chaos.

 

[Ergosum]

That may help Praag, and Kislev even. But New Town will be covered by a successful rollout whatever we vote for.

The New Town choice however sends the message that the establishment of Waystones is for the most corrupted areas you rule, where you will have to fight tooth and nail to establish each new stone, and may cause a reaction to spill out of those zones. It says to leaders that embarking on a Waystone 2.0 rollout program demands the sincere material commitment to taking and holding those dark areas, that Waystones are not things that can simply be put up around populated areas to make the lives of your existing populace better without that martial commitment. Is that the message we want to send? I personally don't think it's the best for encouraging widespread deployment.

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I mean, that is in practice what we're gonna be doing for the short to medium term. Our Waystone deployments this turn are Praag, Sylvania and the Black Water, three of the most corrupted places in the Old World, and after that our priorities will be the other super-tainted places: Mordheim, the Forest of Shadows, etc.

Widespread deployment will likely happen once all, or at least most of, the Problem Zones have been dealt with, at which point saying "since there's no high priority areas left we're changing strategy and spreading them everywhere, it won't be as flashy but it'll help" should be a pretty easy sell.

 

[chocolote12]

Warhammer Fantasy is contained within the boundaries of a celestial Heavy Metal Album. Sick guitar soloes and hordes of ravenous monsters while we set up our magical monuments to awesomeness are to be expected. We will not have a shortage of righteous warriors so long as our cause is true.

Our waystones have been sharpened to bite into the heart of the evil lands. This is the year where we'll strike fear into them.

 

[Langlock]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town

 

[pucflek]

Im giving it one last try explaining what i actually mean.

This isn´t like, a singular choice. Of course if you tell Praagite you could make his house more livable, he will say "fuck yeah, hit me up".

But like. Consider this. The choice here is between if Ivan Ivanoff will have a house in area where he has 5 kids and rolls a dice on up to 3 of them being mutated (and it going to no children being mutated in next five years) or there being one more house in Praag going from unlivable to about the same as the house Ivan Ivanoff already lives in right now. And to your or mine sensibility, that seems like a pretty staightforward choice right? Kids and all that.

But consider this. There is already a house that Ivan Ivanoff could live in that has zero chance of mutation, and its a house in Kislev City or somewhere even more South. Maybe even Ostermark if he so chooses. But he doesn´t. He stays in the house where 3 out of 5 of his kids end up mutated. He stays in Praag, because one more house in Praag means something to him.

And this is why i think that the choice to reclaim more of Praag first instead of Warding whats already resettled has a chance to have more popular support in at least local residence.

 

[thisisinsane]

Way stones are infrastructure. You build where it is valuable to build and to consolidate your gains, not as a beach head. At least, not with this model.

[x] River Gate and Northeastern Kislev
[x] Karlsbridge and Old Town