OK question: Do you think that when the Ice Witches, you know the native magical tradition of Kislev shifted the flow of magic to Castle Alexandronov people there rioted or something? Living next to magical infrastructure is normal, half the cities of the Old World are built around it. Praag is special because Praag has a hell quarter, no other inhabited city has this problem except maybe Mussilion and we'd have to conquer that anyway.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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OK question: Do you think that when the Ice Witches, you know the native magical tradition of Kislev shifted the flow of magic to Castle Alexandronov people there rioted or something? Living next to magical infrastructure is normal, half the cities of the Old World are built around it. Praag is special because Praag has a hell quarter, no other inhabited city has this problem except maybe Mussilion and we'd have to conquer that anyway.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
You're posting like we can skip the part where the army of Praag comes into the Newtown and has to fight the inhabitants and the literal walls. We can't. This is because those walls are eating people right now.
The exorcism is unpopular because it means fighting battles where the citizens can see them being fought, not because it involves sacrificing civilian lives. Those enemies are still there and they're still going to come out to fight the waystones eventually.
This isn't a "Sacrifice X innocents for a cooler result" option. It's the "Do a Battle Turn to defeat local monsters" option. Battles aren't popular. Battles near people's houses are especially not popular. We are not deliberately killing X uninvolved civilians about this.
The option entails accepting the mixed reputation of the conflict, not instigating it where it wouldn't have otherwise happened. Does Mathilde value a reputation of the stones providing comfort or a reputation of the stones exorcising evil?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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- Vermont
Yeah, literally the only thing that first part is saying is 'The Z'ra will like it'.
Waystones cost money (and other more intangible resources but money too), that money comes from the nobles' dues.
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- Location
- Greece
Again, by that logic, option 3 is best because it provides the general economic benefits.
Yes, but the stones are not good at that, we built them (i.e. over-designed them to hell until they were better than the Golden Age models in some ways) to drive them into the heart of the taint not get more grazing land. They are not remotely fit for that purpose.
The question is how interested will they be and what will they want it for. Putting your opening waystones in a way to root out the worst bits of corruption, and succeeding, says that your waystones are extremely effective. Getting around to those areas after you have already established a foothold is much less of a statement of their efficacy. That is a statement that they want waystones now, so they can get to those areas, rather than putting it off even longer.
Every option is going to be dealt with eventually. The question is what the people around the world take of the first thing the Project goes for.
That's not the reading I took and that doesn't really follow from our waystone. There is no geographical attachment to the statement that people with wizard employees will view it positively. It's not unlikely that there is only one person in Praag that statement applies to: the Z'ra. The Ice Witches and Hag Witches loath the city and it's dangerous for casters. There's not much point in generalizing the statement. Meanwhile us putting the waystones in the New Town means that our waystones can purify the absolute worst part of Praag. The ensuing mutant attacks are explainable as Chaos reacting to the threat it poses.
That sentence is too vague for it to be referring to the Z'ra alone, how many wizards do you think are even in Praag? It's just about one of the worst places in the Old World to be a wizard. The native traditions disliked the city for inviting the Fire Spire even before Asavar Kul. It's not unlikely that Becher is the only legal wizard (or at least, not illegal) in the whole city regularly. If not, how many can there really be? Five?
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- Location
- Chicago
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- She/They
No, I'm posting like it's going to happen anyways. There's no scenario in which it doesn't happen.
The only question is if we skip the step of showing people why they should be happy we are doing it or not.
I'm not quite sure that's true. They have two native traditions of witchcraft; but according to RotIQ they think that magic based on the Winds it's evil and inherently corruptive; which is why they won't use arcane magic.
And how is random peasant man aware of that the Winds of Magic are? We are going to install the thing with the aid of two witches ergo it's wholesome witch magic.
If any of the population of Praag would not be happy to see the Hell quarter gone someone should really call a witch hunter because those are cultists
Jokes aside they will never dislike fighting gribbles in the streets no matter how much we massage the tumor because the problem is the fear of gribbles in the street and Waystones in Old Town in no way make that less scary.
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That doesn't match the interpretation Boney has given the witches—they both obviously think their magic is superior, and the Ice Witches are notably wary of any man trying to meddle with their magic—but their disdain for the colleges seems to be mostly social/political in nature, rather than a belief that wind magic is inherently bad for you.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
I mean, you posted this, so that wasn't really my takeaway.
When I see people say 'hard men making hard decisions' I've pretty much only ever seen it as 'sacrificing X civilians for y reason'.
Prioritizing comfort over actually stopping people from dying doesn't feel like it falls on the right end of that dichotomy.
Alright. I think that people, who think that second option will give us more fame in the rest of the world, overlook one thing.
First option is "the most politically resonant", straight up.
No "nobility is more active than peasant", no "aggressive expansion is more attractive to army". No "rulers with magic advisers". No "mass will miss, but rulers will know".
Maybe Z'ra won't be diplomatically active and will focus on battle, or Chaos activity will overtake news about Waystone, or information about Waystone will be classified for a time, or million different reasons. Maybe "rulers with magic advisers" is talking only about Z'ra and how he will liked it.
But Karlsbridge is the most politically resonant.
Bridge has many good arguments, but fame in the world isn't it.
First option is "the most politically resonant", straight up.
No "nobility is more active than peasant", no "aggressive expansion is more attractive to army". No "rulers with magic advisers". No "mass will miss, but rulers will know".
Maybe Z'ra won't be diplomatically active and will focus on battle, or Chaos activity will overtake news about Waystone, or information about Waystone will be classified for a time, or million different reasons. Maybe "rulers with magic advisers" is talking only about Z'ra and how he will liked it.
But Karlsbridge is the most politically resonant.
Bridge has many good arguments, but fame in the world isn't it.
I just keep thinking of earlier in the quest, where the dwarves were shocked that humans would destroy critical magical infrastructure just for the free twine.
I really think that we need every iota of legitimacy we can get with the local peasantry if we want these to last.
I really think that we need every iota of legitimacy we can get with the local peasantry if we want these to last.
Hm, it's odd that nobody seems to have given Mathilde a straight answer to this question yet. We're here, in Praag, with a waystone, and two witches, and everyone is still keeping quiet about the nexus' location. I get that it's a national security issue, but surely someone should have told us by now?
OK then what do you think the second option does? Is it just a trap option in your eyes?
- Location
- Canada
I'm ultimately fine with either of the leading options
They're different approaches with different upsides and drawbacks
But I really feel like arguments constantly circle back to points that are missing the forest for the trees
There's this constant reoccurring assumption that because Z'ra likes option 2 that means option 1 has no appeal to him
When Feudal rulers absolutely have plenty of reason to appreciate the radiation spill in the densest population center of their city being cleaned up
And then there's the assumption that what the Z'ra likes will automatically be what all governing nobles like, which is explicitly not the case
Then there's people arguing about whether the Waystones do more good Old Town or New Town, despite this explicitly not being a vote about what the Waystones accomplish since the Waystones are going to be deployed in all the locations mentioned in time
They're different approaches with different upsides and drawbacks
But I really feel like arguments constantly circle back to points that are missing the forest for the trees
There's this constant reoccurring assumption that because Z'ra likes option 2 that means option 1 has no appeal to him
When Feudal rulers absolutely have plenty of reason to appreciate the radiation spill in the densest population center of their city being cleaned up
And then there's the assumption that what the Z'ra likes will automatically be what all governing nobles like, which is explicitly not the case
Then there's people arguing about whether the Waystones do more good Old Town or New Town, despite this explicitly not being a vote about what the Waystones accomplish since the Waystones are going to be deployed in all the locations mentioned in time
The citizens of Praag are a self selecting group that have stuck it out for two centuries in a hellhole believing they can reclaim it. I expect there will be some resignation about another boondoggle to start with if the New Town is chosen. But I really don't see that it's going to be some massive issue, and it's not going to take that long for initial results to be seen at which point I imagine attitudes will drastically change.
- Location
- Greece
We overdesigned them so that they CAN work at the heart of the taint. The narration, however, says nothing about where out of all the places, their optimal efficiency would be, because that question is about politics, not making sure that Waystones operate at maximum capacity.
But even if I were to agree with you, If you care about maximum damage against chaos, the best option is the Tzar. The Tzar Having more funds means he'll use more of them for deploying more Waystones, which would do more against the taint than placing them at the best places to make the most damage to it. Seven inefficiently placed Waystones are better than five efficiently placed ones. This is in addition for giving the Tzar more funds for his armies, which are necessary for actually placing Waystones in the middle of the taint if we want that. So the macroeconomic option would be best for deployment and the peasant option best for optics and more indirect benefits, assuming it spreads to more magophobic places. The noble option is best for neither.
Sure. I guess making the first Waystone a visible stress test is a benefit (the only benefit) of the Noble option I cannot refute. But would we want that anyway? Its better to do things by establishing footholds anyway, because a Waystone placed directly into the most tainted areas is very hard to defend. So I'd argue the optimal strategy, aka the one we should advertise for, is based on placing footholds.
- Location
- USA
[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town
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I do not buy that, not even a little bit, these things are too expensive to deploy in troll country and they are too expensive to deploy for marginal increases to the land fertility of northern Kislev. There is no way for Boris to grasp just how bloody expensive they are since he is not a magician so he is just wrong in wanting that as far as I'm concerned.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Most isn't only, pretty much.
Karlsbridge is an easy lay up, but the other three choices all have supporters who will approve of our choice across the world. It will tinge our trying to sell them to other people, not disable the choice, if we choose something other than the easiest form of advertisement.
If we choose the Death bridge, we'll appeal as a form of extreme exorcism. People across the land do not like curses and this will be an option for resolving them. The market is insanely vast.
If we choose the River Gate option, we'll appeal as an economic boon. Every bean counter will be able to read about the way the land picked up 10% in growth numbers or whatever and it'll be an obvious investment. The market for good land is similarly vast.
If we choose the Bleakness, we'll appeal as a religious rite. Every priest and noble concerned about the state of their souls will be able to hear about how the dead sleep soundly in Praag and look to acquire waystones for their own salvation. The religious forces of the Old World aren't an undercurrent, they're practically the whole river of society.
They'll have effects on hundreds of square kilometers of Troll Country per stone, if I remember previous descriptions of the options correctly. Outside of Praag their effects are genuinely crazy, and the discussion about putting multiple stones into the city is because it's a nexus of corruption almost without equal in any land where humans dwell, not because that's their general efficiency.