Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[picklepikkl]

Did we consider the Protector for the first waystones? Is it invalid because we're not putting ourselves in danger?

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Too indirect.

If you have to explain what the danger is, or how Mathilde protected someone from it, then it almost certainly does not apply.

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"I saved you from drowning": easy. "I pulled your entire Hold out of the grip of Chaos": bam. "I put up a rock and a year later a statistically significantly fewer number of undead were spontaneously rising that might have hurt you/your child was born with no mutation instead of the nasty one they might have had otherwise": no go. There has to be an active, concrete, non-hypothetical danger, and Mathilde's actions need to directly and proximately lead the other party to safety from that danger.

 

[Pyran]

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[Mopman43]

Getting the approval of peasants in CERTAINLY gonna be better for wizards. Its certainly gonna be better for children whose parents hate them. For children whose parents may burn them in the pyre.

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To be fair, this is Kislev.

They're perfectly fine with their own flavor of wizards. And I don't think making things better for Praag peasants is going to somehow impact how Stirlanders act.

Unless you're just taking this as a mission statement of 'This project helps peasants', in which case, fair enough.

 

[Candesce]

[x] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[storryeater]

To be fair, this is Kislev.

They're perfectly fine with their own flavor of wizards. And I don't think making things better for Praag peasants is going to somehow impact how Stirlanders act.

Unless you're just taking this as a mission statement of 'This project helps peasants', in which case, fair enough.

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From the way I understand the vote, the entire thing is about mission statements.

And tbh, by the same coin, pleasing the Z'ra would not actually have any impact to other nobles and pleasing Dash would have no effect to other priests, so the only option that helps us long term is pleasing the Tzar cuz he is the biggest indivindually.

 

[DragonParadox]

Ya know, I was gonna abstain from this vote because there are good points all around, but...

The people who would burn Mathilde were all peasants. The person who saved Mathilde was a peasant who had a better impression of the colleges. The people who hold funerals for their children when they have the gift are peasants. And so are the people who held a party when things changed at K8P. The people who would riot if the next king was a wizard are mostly peasants, the church can only act this way because it knows it could organise them against wizards more easily, and the nobles would be afraid to cross the church on that issue when they cross it all the time in other issues PRECISELY because they know its ground is particularly fertile in that extent.

Getting the approval of peasants may or may not be worse for overall deployment of Waystones. I certainly find it hard to tell, there are good arguments either way.

Getting the approval of peasants in CERTAINLY gonna be better for wizards. Its certainly gonna be better for children whose parents hate them. For children whose parents may burn them in the pyre.

Even if it was not the most ultilitarian choice by pure cost-benefit... I know which one Mathilde would choose. Because peasant approval matters for things that to her are just as important as the Waystone rollout, while the approval of everyone else barely does.

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

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I'm not sure why you are projecting Imperial magi-phobia onto Kislev. They have not one but two native arcane traditions. This has nothing to do with the acceptance of wizards who are fleshy, spread out and easy to burn at the stake. Trying to damage a Waystone that is already being protected from a horde of slavering mutants and their sorcerous leaders is... well I would say not the kind of thing a peasant survives, but that's unfair to their common sense. Not the kind of thing they attempt is more reasonable.

 

[silentorphan]

[x] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[storryeater]

I'm not sure why you are projecting Imperial magi-phobia onto Kislev. They have not one but two native arcane traditions. This has nothing to do with the acceptance of wizards who are fleshy, spread out and easy to burn at the stake. Trying to damage a Waystone that is already being protected from a horde of slavering mutants and their sorcerous leaders is... well I would say not the kind of thing a peasant survives, but that's unfair to their common sense. Not the kind of thing they attempt is more reasonable.

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Welp, this was probably ninja'd by me, but as I said in my post directly above your reply, by that logic, the only one worth pleasing is the Tzar. I assume whatever we do is what will propagate the most in general.

 

[chocolote12]

Even if it was not the most ultilitarian choice by pure cost-benefit... I know which one Mathilde would choose. Because peasant approval matters for things that to her are just as important as the Waystone rollout, while the approval of everyone else barely does.

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Mathilde chooses what we vote on. Peasants not eating wizards is always nice, but Praag is the last place you could go to work that out -- they're kind of famous for having had a wizard college before Teclis showed up.

Personally, I think we voted this turn in on the basis of driving a stake into the heart of the lingering abominations that plague the old world. I certainly wouldn't complain too much about couching it softly for the skittish, but putting it in Newtown is being straightforward about what waystones are and what we made them for.

The other places we're putting them in are Sylvania, to de-vampire-ify that place once and for all, and the Black Water, to nail down what on some introspection is probably an extended reference to the concept of that gate watching octopus monster from LoTR.

 

[MrHobbit]

So, this is something that can't be dodged. Doing it this way is going to create a bad impression on the locals. It *might* improve in the future.

It is not catastrophizing to point this out.

This will not make waystones look like a solution to a problem.


I rather dislike a strategy that relies on tyranny as a Ranaldian.

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It explicitly says that it will be a problem in the short term. But as time progresses the locals will notice that the fancy rocks have carved enormous chunks into the worst parts of Praag. The peasants are not idiots. Meanwhile the powers that be abroad have started wanting waystones months/years prior. The Karlsbad Bridge is the short-term option, the Bridge of Death is the long term option.

Are you willing to give up Mathilde's titles, friendships, belongings, ect? Because I've got bad news about how they all got in that position. I am particularly unsympathetic to this viewpoint coming from a member of the Empire's secret police.

And tbh, by the same coin, pleasing the Z'ra would not actually have any impact to other nobles and pleasing Dash would have no effect to other priests, so the only option that helps us long term is pleasing the Tzar cuz he is the biggest indivindually.

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The update explicitly states that people with wizard advisors will view the Bridge of Death option positively. That happens to be a majority of the nations in the Old World. It's especially good for Bretonnia, where the Damsels said that they would be interested in the Project if it delivered results. And Mathilde driving a stake into the absolute worst Praag has to offer is a big result. It's the most substantial that Mathilde has to offer.

This will undoubtedly do the most good for Praag in the long run and will be looked well upon by the kind of person who has a Wizard in their employ to explain that to them, but in the immediate term most citizens of Praag will only know of riled-up denizens of Chaos and the inevitable death toll that taking and holding parts of New Town to establish Waystones within them will reap.

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[Glau]

But in the aftermath everybody will be able to look at the not-bleeding-anymore streets and say that the rocks definitely work, which is the benefit of the option.

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Do you have a time frame for the aftermath, or a guess?

Two decades till streets stop bleeding? Two decades?

There's a good chance that changes are more noticable in areas that are less corrupted as well, so "hey, the street signs don't demonically scramble themselves any more!" might happen a lot faster than the streets stop bleeding.


Idk. I think it boils down to me seeing the death bridge option as "hard men making hard decisions" and "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you; it is for your own good" and my general aversion to those.

 

[Tasoli]

the only one worth pleasing is the Tzar.

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We already did that. Taking a top down approach is better than skipping middle managers and bottom up approach doesn't really work on a feudal political system anyhow.

 

[eternalpasserby]

I'm not following.

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It's simple. Comment, that I replied to, talked about "retaking lands". Second option is about offence on worst parts of city, which are already parts of town and not that big. Third option is about cleaning new land for country, pushing foreshore of Chaos, so it's also about "retaking", but space is bigger, so "land" is more appropriate. So third option is technically more about "retaking" and "land".

It's not serious argument, I just found it interesting to point out.

 

[065tdsa]

From the way I understand the vote, the entire thing is about mission statements.

And tbh, by the same coin, pleasing the Z'ra would not actually have any impact to other nobles and pleasing Dash would have no effect to other priests, so the only option that helps us long term is pleasing the Tzar cuz he is the biggest indivindually.

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What you are missing is that the peasantry spends most of their time in one place, concerned with their normal lives. Nobles on the other hand travel and gossip and hire spies and seers, they keep track of what's happening across the world as much as they can.

The nobility in Bretonnia will become aware of our Waystone and how it performs years before the peasantry in rural Kislev hears that Pragg has a new rock and it is fancy.

 

[Altom]

He probably thinks Mathilde is the best thing to come out of the Empire since the army of Magnus.

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The Karaz Ankor: "Welcome to the club. Here is your complimentary mug of beer."

 

[storryeater]

Mathilde chooses what we vote on. Peasants not eating wizards is always nice, but Praag is the last place you could go to work that out -- they're kind of famous for having had a wizard college before Teclis showed up.

Personally, I think we voted this turn in on the basis of driving a stake into the heart of the lingering abominations that plague the old world. I certainly wouldn't complain too much about couching it softly for the skittish, but putting it in Newtown is being straightforward about what waystones are and what we made them for.

The other places we're putting them in are Sylvania, to de-vampire-ify that place once and for all, and the Black Water, to nail down what on some introspection is probably an extended reference to the concept of that gate watching octopus monster from LoTR.

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Sure, I never said any choice was out of character. I just stated what I think she'd choose based on my train of thought. I won't really be salty if she chooses another option, I just think that, considering everything, this makes the most sense.

The update explicitly states that people with wizard advisors will view the Bridge of Death option positively. That happens to be a majority of the nations in the Old World. It's especially good for Bretonnia, where the Damsels said that they would be interested in the Project if it delivered results. And Mathilde driving a stake into the absolute worst Praag has to offer is a big result. It's the most substantial that Mathilde has to offer.

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Yeah, sure, i agree and I am generally pro Brettonia rollout, but all the same, I find it hard to believe people with wizard advisors won't be interested anyway. But peasants and magophobes? These are the ones we have to win over. Not only for the project, but in general.

We already did that. Taking a top down approach is better than skipping middle managers and bottom up approach doesn't really work on a feudal political system anyhow.

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I mean, yeah, but, again, there is no point in pleasing the Z'ra because he is only in charge of Praag and he'll be happy anyway. We can either assume these policies are general and will have effects on general deployment, or focus in the biggest indivindual. Maybe focus on the priests of Dazh instead to have one more god on our side, if we assume it pleases all the priests of Dazh instead.

I am going by the assumption there will be a knock on effect in all options, because otherwise they may as well not BE options given how lopsided the power between these groups are.

What you are missing is that the peasantry spends most of their time in one place, concerned with their normal lives. Nobles on the other hand travel and gossip and hire spies and seers, they keep track of what's happening across the world as much as they can.

The nobility in Bretonnia will become aware of our Waystone and how it performs years before the peasantry in rural Kislev hears that Pragg has a new rock and it is fancy.

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Maybe, but as I said, every place with a mage advisor will be easy to convince anyway, because they'll know what the Waystones do regardless of our priorities.

 

[DragonParadox]

Welp, this was probably ninja'd by me, but as I said in my post directly above your reply, by that logic, the only one worth pleasing is the Tzar. I assume whatever we do is what will propagate the most in general.

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Unless the Tsar is secretly Nagash and controlling his armies though direct mental domination what the nobles to whom fealty is owed by the people protecting the stones is kind if important.

 

[ArcanaVitae]

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

 

[storryeater]

Unless the Tsar is secretly Nagash and controlling his armies though direct mental domination what the nobles to whom fealty is owed by the people protecting the stones is kind if important.

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What they (the nobles) think would be a problem if they thought (correctly or incorectly) we were doing something bad or harmful to their base of power. If we were doing something harmless, they'd just shrug, because opposing the Tzar would be more costly. Its not like they are asked to pay for it, and if the problem is paying for it, the option that benefits the economy is optimal.

 

[Ergosum]

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town

I've been going back and forth between this and the Old Town, but in the end I'm picking the Bridge of Death for a couple reasons:

First, it's flashy. The flashiest option, at least in the short to medium term. People will eventually start noticing how the Old Town gets better, but it might take some time before it gets noticeably better (to non-Praag natives), and even longer before news spread. "Praag purges its worst district" is the sort of news that travels fast across the Old World, and if then the Z'ra justifies the "why now?" as "because now we have these things that can make it stick", even better.

And second, and most importantly, this is a show of our intentions, and our immediate goals line up more with "purging gribblie HQ" than with "incremental benefits". We're not going to plant Waystones in Reikland or Averland or the Moot yet: we're going after Sylvania and Mordheim and the Forest of Shadows and other such places. "The average citizen's life gets slightly better" is good, but "we're cleansing notorious magical shithole Praag for good" could more easily draw the attention of the Elector Counts of Nordland or Ostland or Ostermark, who might think "it would be really cool if we could cleanse our local notorious magical shithole for good too!" Cue Mathilde knocking on the door.

 

[DragonParadox]

They would if they thought (correctly or incorectly) we were doing something bad or harmful to their base of power. If we were doing something harmless, they'd just shrug, because opposing the Tzar would be more costly. Its not like they are asked to pay for it, and if the problem is paying for it, the option that benefits the economy is optimal.

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They would what? Genuine question, I'm not sure what you are saying? Are you positing military rebellion if we go New Town?

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

I think a lot of people are interpting this statement wrongly.

This will undoubtedly do the most good for Praag in the long run and will be looked well upon by the kind of person who has a Wizard in their employ to explain that to them, but in the immediate term most citizens of Praag will only know of riled-up denizens of Chaos and the inevitable death toll that taking and holding parts of New Town to establish Waystones within them will reap.

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It's not saying "we need a wizard friendly ruler in order to explain why attacking the worst corruption first is a good thing", it's saying "normally convincing the local ruler to declare war on their own city would be a tricky thing, but thankfully the Z'ra not only employs a wizard advisor, but also listens to him".

It is not a general statement of how nobles around the world are going to be aghast at our deployment, but actually how lucky we are that the local ruler is willing to consider extreme propositions.

Yes, the local population is going to be very disturbed by the literal war happening two streets down from where they live, and they will put pressure on the Z'ra to end it and return to normalcy—but he's willing to disregard their short term discomfort in favour of the long term benefits his wizard advisor has described to him.

 

[Valarauko]

[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

I think the benefits of the general populace of Praag being generally on board with Waystone deployment is very important. We're installing major magical infrastructure; when was the last time normal people were ever happy to live right beside something like that? That's priceless.

We can talk to nobles and clergy and other such interest groups and make our case as necessary and they can then to their own people who they consult on matters magical and can be convinced. What we can't do for any amount of gold, favor, or AP is get the collective testimonials of the ordinary folk of the place worst affected by Chaos in recent history.

Now, our current Waystone design is absolutely more suited for the Bridge of Death and New Town because it's a beachhead stone, and if we had another design and limited quantities of Waystones, then certainly the current design would go there and something less hardened would go to Karlsbridge, but we have no other design and we launched our campaign with the single design we have.

 

[storryeater]

They would what? Genuine question, I'm not sure what you are saying? Are you positing military rebellion if we go New Town?

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Sorry, editing.

Meant to say : What they think would be a problem if...

What I mean is, the nobles won't really care to opposse the Tzar if the Waystones are harmless, never mind beneficial, because oppossing the Tzar would carry a greater cost than letting the wizards give them a new landmark. They would only be a problem if their authority was threatened. Thus, what the nobles of Kislev think does not matter, as long as they do not think it undermines or harms their power base.

 

[eternalpasserby]

What you are missing is that the peasantry spends most of their time in one place, concerned with their normal lives. Nobles on the other hand travel and gossip and hire spies and seers, they keep track of what's happening across the world as much as they can.

The nobility in Bretonnia will become aware of our Waystone and how it performs years before the peasantry in rural Kislev hears that Pragg has a new rock and it is fancy.

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It's still medieval times and it's Kislev, so nobility isn't active enough outside of its country to seriously affect reputation of our project. If Waystone is successful, we will have word of Tzar with us. With Stirland being not that far behind, I don't really concern about gossips.

We have Karak Eight Peaks, Laurelorn, Ulthuan's diplomat, we were on Tzar coronation, our project rise to a country's level, we presented Tributaries, and any place gives us enough fame for cleaning Praag. We don't really hide, so I don't think that spies wouldn't know about us without Bridge or Z'ra.