Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Pretty torn on the first two options though I think it's hard to really go wrong here. As some others have already pointed out, I think it comes down to what we want to accomplish politically and which better serves that. With a waystone design completed (and probably a few others to be researched down the line without too much difficulty) our priorities come down to getting the resources to expedite more production and framing how we want them to be used.

You have the same terms available to any that claim to bring miracles - you may attempt whatever you wish to attempt in the worst corners of Praag, and any talk of bankrolling that solution begins only with proven results.

This quote from the Z'ra's advisor ended up pushing me towards option two with expansion towards the new town. We already have significant buy-in from the heads of major polities so now it's time to try to curry favor from the regional nobles. Our overall turn plan also has us placing new waystones in trouble spots like Sylvania and the Blackwater meaning that our target audience for the foreseeable future is leaders in areas of severe corruption. Them getting reports of success from a more aggressive approach to the rollout seems more likely to start a groundswell of meaningful political and financial support for the project. The higher the demand, the more resources we can bring to bear towards enticing the rare experts who can work on the trickier components of the waystones.

In a more meta sense, I think this sets a tone towards reclaiming hostile territory as part of the project which frankly seems a lot more fun than shoring up conditions in "safer" areas. I see it as the first step towards getting people on board for reclaiming something like the brass keep.

[X] Bridge of Death and New Town
 
But consider this. There is already a house that Ivan Ivanoff could live in that has zero chance of mutation, and its a house in Kislev City or somewhere even more South. Maybe even Ostermark if he so chooses. But he doesn´t. He stays in the house where 3 out of 5 of his kids end up mutated. He stays in Praag, because one more house in Praag means something to him.

Ah. I see. You are discounting the cost of moving to another city to zero or close to.

It costs to package up all of your things. It costs to move them. It costs if you choose to abandon them and have to replace them later. It costs to get a new house, to pay for the time before a new job.

Now, normally the way it works is people move in with relatives they've got in the other cities, or are helped by associations of people who had moved there from where the potential emigrees are now. But we learned that Praag has a very different ethnic background from the other cities, which means that both of those things are much rarer and costs go way up. So the percentage of people stuck in Praag, at least if they don't want to be beggars, has to be much higher than usual when a city is sacked or tainted.

"It's not much but it is MINE" is, I think, just as strong or stronger than revanchism, basically.

I'm not saying you are wrong about the strong popularity of revanchism and gritted teeth defiance of chaos. I guess I just think it's as much cope as valid.
 
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One thing I want to say to the death bridge, not about if it's the right choice but to clarify.

The death bridge is in oldtown. it lies directly under the citadel, the most heavily defended part of praag.
If we do choose the death bridge the inauguration will be as safe as can be done in praag.
The stone itself will be as heavily defended as can be just by sheer proximity.
 
A number of arguments have been made for the Karlsbridge option. I think the idea that it will result in the most immediate benefit to the citizens of Praag has some validity, but what really bothers me is how many people have been saying that Mathilde should choose it because it is the most politically convenient and has the least risk of political blowback that could potentially imperil the rollout.

I think that's a bad argument. Even worse, it's un-Mathilde. She's not a political animal and has only played politics very rarely when forced to, and even then in her own inimitable style. Her history is not of careful political maneuvering, but of grand gestures and audacious feats that leave everyone (who knows about them) befuddled and wandering how the hell she accomplished what she just did. Her motto might be "Unseen, but not unfelt" but I think it should really be "Audacity, audacity, always audacity".

And that applies even moreso in this turn, in which Mathilde decided one gigaflex wasn't enough, and decided to do three at once. There's the stones, the bridge through the Schadensumpf and the mass waystone rollout. And now you want to turn aside? In this moment of triumph? Imagine how badass it will be when Mathilde rocks up in Altdorf, fresh off purging the very worst of Praag (as the culmination of a project everyone thought was a boondoggle), and then presents the stones. Being fresh off making the lives of Praag's citizens somewhat better just doesn't have the same energy to it.

And I have a difficult time believing any blowback from the costs of purging Praag could seriously imperil the rollout. The nations of the Old World are used to sustaining incredible hardships for marginal gains against the various gribbles that plague them. Reclaiming Praag, even if the city remains heavily contaminated, is not a minor thing but rather, something that will send shockwaves throughout the Old World and be seen as a comparable accomplishment to levelling Castle Drakenhof. It could cost tens of thousands of lives and still be seen as a very good trade.

Also, I think that attacking the very worst of the Dhar as directly as possible is objectively the best choice. I'm skeptical of arguments that waystones will eventually be deployed to all the places so its fine to choose first a less risky option. There are lots of high-priority targets for waystone deployment throughout the Old World, so I think they should be used to directly address the greatest dangers. If an army of demons turns up at Praag's doorstep, New Town as it stands is a ready-made foothold. And we know that an Everchosen is on the way. But since we don't know when they'll arrive, we should get started immediately on purging it immediately, so that hopefully by the time it happens enough progress has been made that Praag actually has a chance to hold. The quality of life of Praag's citizens is a secondary consideration to a continued existential risk to the city.
 
You are discounting the cost of moving to another city to zero or close to.
I did not see this assumption in his posts.

not as a beach head. At least, not with this model.

This model is actually pretty well suited to being a beach head. We can deploy it all by itself next to a river in an area that has few or no other waystones. Then, we can deploy new stones of other varieties attached to it.

The one area that our stone outperforms the Golden Age stones is that it does not need to be close to another stone to work. It can just use a river that also happens to have a nexus on it.
 
This argument is predicated on it:

"There is already a house that Ivan Ivanoff could live in"
I mean. Maybe not in kislev city. But if he wanted to leave praag and move even just a bit south he would be better off. Praag is the border of the tainted lands, anything further south is "relatively fine" for kislev standards.

But he is staying in praag, which even for kislev standards is bad.
 
I don't know if that is predicated more or less on human nature. The siege mentality, if there is one thing that can be said about humanity in this world is that they are constantly at war. With each other, with chaos, greenskins, skaven, beastmen. There is never not a battle going on somewhere. That is true here as well but not on the same scale.

We have examples of what happens when people say this far and no further, Verdun, Stalingrad, Thermopylae. There are dozens of examples where a small fraction of a nation decided that this piece of dirt is worth dying for. It isn't insane to think the same is true in the Warhammer world.
 
I mean. Maybe not in kislev city. But if he wanted to leave praag and move even just a bit south he would be better off. Praag is the border of the tainted lands, anything further south is "relatively fine" for kislev standards.

But he is staying in praag, which even for kislev standards is bad.

That still involves moving, which means he needs to own land in the new location to farm, or have a profession where he can make money in whatever little village there might be. Assuming people can move from a city to the countryside without starving to death is a big assumption to make and not true for the vast majority. Kislev does not have a strong social safety net if you move away from all your relatives.
 
That still involves moving, which means he needs to own land in the new location to farm, or have a profession where he can make money in whatever little village there might be. Assuming people can move from a city to the countryside without starving to death is a big assumption to make and not true for the vast majority. Kislev does not have a strong social safety net if you move away from all your relatives.
Living in a village would still be about as safe as living in praag period, it is that bad...
As for not being able to move? For the poorest of the poor sure, but we are talking about someone who owns a house in a city. Not the greatest city but people evidently want to live in praag, so selling his house should be a very viable option.
 
This model is actually pretty well suited to being a beach head. We can deploy it all by itself next to a river in an area that has few or no other waystones. Then, we can deploy new stones of other varieties attached to it.

The one area that our stone outperforms the Golden Age stones is that it does not need to be close to another stone to work. It can just use a river that also happens to have a nexus on it.
Beach heads are risky and anything that has high magic, runesmithing, and college enchantment in it is too expensive to risk. If you can't aford to lose it, don't put it in a war zone.
 
Living in a village would still be about as safe as living in praag period, it is that bad...
As for not being able to move? For the poorest of the poor sure, but we are talking about someone who owns a house in a city. Not the greatest city but people evidently want to live in praag, so selling his house should be a very viable option.

It's not really about not having money, it's about not having food or a profession with which to make money. Most people outside of a city are farmers, and most villages don't need a second smith or various other professions. To move, you either need to know how to farm to feed yourself, or have a profession that village you're moving to needs a member of. That's not impossible, but it's a niche situation most people are not in.

Like...a one time infusion of money from selling your house is maybe enough to buy a farm, but that doesn't help much if you don't know how to farm.
 
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It's not really about not having money, it's about not having food or a profession with which to make money. Most people outside of a city are farmers, and most villages don't need a second smith or various other professions. To move, you either need to know how to farm, or have a profession that village you're moving to needs a member of. That's not impossible, but it's a niche situation most people are not in.
See that's an argument for when you need to move right now.
But praag has been this way for 200+ years, there a whole new generations of people who grew up there.
That is where the argument falls apart for me. You got literal decades if you want to prepare to leave, find a village that needs your skill, sell your house wisely. Because praag isn't changing, it isn't getting worse, it isn't getting better.
 
Not the greatest city but people evidently want to live in praag, so selling his house should be a very viable option.

I'm sorry, I snickered as I read this.

The thought was something like...


Top 10 worst jobs in the Warhammer Fantasy world!

#8 Real Estate Agent in Praag

Ever want to spend your life trying desperately to persuade gullible rubes that a house is only a little demon-haunted and it's really not that bad? Well! Have I got an offer for you!

Come to Praag! Take MY job! It's a steal!
 
See that's an argument for when you need to move right now.
But praag has been this way for 200+ years, there a whole new generations of people who grew up there.
That is where the argument falls apart for me. You got literal decades if you want to prepare to leave, find a village that needs your skill, sell your house wisely. Because praag isn't changing, it isn't getting worse, it isn't getting better.

If a lot of people are all doing this, those 'slots' in the little villages are suddenly in very short supply. And not a lot of people are buying those houses in Praag either...I expect there's a lot more people leaving Praag than moving in, which means the people leaving are the ones who get lucky and happen to get enough money together and just the right opportunity...which is to say a tiny subset of the people who would do so if they could.
 
[X] Karlsbridge and Old Town

This is necessary practice for when Boris' daughter invades the Realms of Chaos.

Old Town isn't practice for invading the Chaos Wastes, though. That's New Town.

Beach heads are risky and anything that has high magic, runesmithing, and college enchantment in it is too expensive to risk. If you can't aford to lose it, don't put it in a war zone.

Our Waystones were explicitly called out as excellent beachheads in-quest.
 
Fortunately, all waystones here are going to get built and the only real effect of this decision is a best guess influence on the stories that get told.
 
Thats your problem. You think sane. But people chose to live there. They realize its fucked, but they still would rather piss against a hurricane than admit chaos this victory. And they are succeeding.

People make illogical decisions all the time given sufficient emotional prompting and apparently non-insignificant part of Kislev saw the state of Praag and thought "free real estate". Is that really population you want to ascribe the quoted reasoning to?

Ok, I haven't been here to say this while the discussion was going on, but now that I am here...

People stay in hellholes all the time, not because they are stubborn, but because they have no other options or other options suck too.

Like, uprooting your life and going to another city is hard even today. In medieval times, where so much is tied to your land, or to your shop being a part of the community, is something that will likely result in you becoming a beggar. Assuming you can survive the trip. Assuming you have enough money FOR the trip. Assuming you are even gotta get that grace, considering that everywhere else you are gonna be considered too tainted, or perhaps too Ungol.

I am pretty sure most people here stay because they have no other choice, or because the other choice is too scary while the devil they know, well... at least they know it, not because they are some stubborn superhumans.
 
Beach heads are risky and anything that has high magic, runesmithing, and college enchantment in it is too expensive to risk. If you can't aford to lose it, don't put it in a war zone.
That is a good point about the risk to them. Ideally in my mind, we would have a cheaper model of waystone to attach to the original, expensive beachhead one.

However, their unique benefit from being so packed with high-tier components is that they can be great beachheads.
 
If a lot of people are all doing this, those 'slots' in the little villages are suddenly in very short supply. And not a lot of people are buying those houses in Praag either...I expect there's a lot more people leaving Praag than moving in, which means the people leaving are the ones who get lucky and happen to get enough money together and just the right opportunity...which is to say a tiny subset of the people who would do so if they could.
I'd agree with that. If we didn't know about slums in the oldtown. Which tells us there are more people then houses in praag.
It's been 250 years and there are more people then houses?
 
Slums do not necessarily imply that. It'd be nice if they did, but...
Ok fair, but there is other evidence, the poorest of the poor has to move to Newtown which also supports the argument of "more people then houses."
To me this means praag has people moving into it or no one is moving out at this point.
I am somewhat doubtful praag has a replacement rate of 1 to 1 with just natural births but I can't actually prove that.
 
I'd agree with that. If we didn't know about slums in the oldtown. Which tells us there are more people then houses in praag.
It's been 250 years and there are more people then houses?

What part of 'there are people living in the slums' says to you those people have enough money to buy a house? Like...I'm not saying there aren't more people than houses in Praag, I'm saying that the people who don't have a house probably can't afford to buy one.

Now, 'what about rich people buying them to rent them out?' you might say. And that's fair, but if that's true then most people probably don't have their own house, they're renting. So the renting majority can't move because they don't have any assets to sell and get the money together.
 
Ok fair, but there is other evidence, the poorest of the poor has to move to Newtown which also supports the argument of "more people then houses."
To me this means praag has people moving into it or no one is moving out at this point.
I am somewhat doubtful praag has a replacement rate of 1 to 1 with just natural births but I can't actually prove that.

People in poorest areas, where survival is fraught, tend to birth more progeny so that at least some will make it to adulthood. That ironically means that atrocious living conditions can lead into overpopulation.
 
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