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that's certainly a price we're gonna ask if they approach us. But if we offer that to them preemptively, obviously they'll think we're desperate somehow and low ball any contribution.
Not really, because they still need waystones, if less urgently. Do all we would do is send someone saying « we have a functional waystone », and they'd themselves ask for the price.

At the very least, I'd like that first waystone to be in kislev to send the message that we're here to save the world, lol.
It sends the message that Laurelorn can go fuck itself. The Eonir are the only reason there is a Project at all, they hosted it, provided a lot of the various options available to create a waystone and most of the components of the one we made. Them not getting the first place for the masse deployment could be excused by saying Kislev is in serious danger right now. But the symbol of the very first new waystone in millennia being shipped of to Kislev? The Eonir would be pissed.
 
I don´t think its entirely reasonable to expect their one single super caster to be doing that to be fair. Thats like coming to get an elven mage and expecting they will all be Teclis.

Besides, the storage should get a lot easier very quickly if we actually commit.

EDIT: I also continue to be dubious on
1) the helpfulness of Bretonnian magical contributions towards waystone nexuses (i am frankly dubious of anyone´s contributions in that field except Elves and Dwarfs and even they can´t make them anymore).
2) the willingness to continue waystone project to the nexus capstone

Making another tributary probably wouldn´t be too bad thought.
Prophetesses can cast from at least three different winds and they've been doing that for millennia. I would be incredibly disappointed in Bretonnia if they couldn't beat some random dude from a year-old tradition bound to a single wind in terms of multi-wind enchantment (admittingly he was taught by Teclis). I also remember Boney saying that just because Damsels aren't known for casting from the Lore of Shadows doesn't mean they are incapable of it. Though I can't find that statement.

The Project cannot research how to build nexuses on its own, even with Bretonnia's aid. It is a political matter. Ulthuan knows how, but they won't share unless they are convinced to. Bretonnia has a lot more connections with Ulthuan than all the other members of the Project. They would help a lot there.

Zlata might even succeed at both the Belthani and Scythian tributary designs!

Edit: Found it, it wasn't about Ulgu.
Don't the bretonnians only use 3 of the winds? So is Mathilde being overly paranoid here or can it be replicated with less than the full set of 8?
Them being know for three particular types of magic is not the same as them being guaranteed to be completely incapable of ever doing anything at all with the others.
 
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Betting on the pride of elves not being bruised at being snubbed is a poor bet. Laurelorn proposed the Project, Laurelorn hosted the Project, Laurelorn provided the most components to the Project, Laurelorn designed the majority of the waystone's components. There's a lot here that says they should be priority for deployment. And ultimately it'd only be a difference of six months for Kislev. Hell, we might even design a simpler waystone without the riverine component in that time. Boris is not expecting to get waystones first.

If we give Kislev waystones first, then Laurelorn will be fourth in line of getting deployables from the Project. We deployed tributaries to Stirland first, then Kislev. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern.

[...]

There is also message that you want to snub the host and greatest contributor of the Waystone Project. :V

Seriously, I really think deploying waystones anywhere other than Laurelorn is a poor choice. We've already ignored them for past deployment actions. We shouldn't do that again.

I mean, Laurelorn isn't being prioritized because they thankfully don't have any Magical Corruption Death Zones like Praag or Sylvanoa or Mordheim or even Moussillon. I think it's understandable, even for Queen Marrisith. Like, we're only a few years into the Project, that's virtually nothing for Elves. Plus I don't think Queen Marrisith expected that we would even be able to build new Waystones at all, let alone this fast. The main benefits they'd get from the Project were always intended to be political, diplomatic and economic (particularly giving more legitimacy to the alliance with Middenland, within both Laurelorn and the Empire), plus whatever magical knowledge they could extract from the other members in the process.

And, well, it's not like they haven't massively benefited from it already. It's given them greatly increased trade thanks to the EIC and (soon) Mathilde's magical mist-bridge. It's allowed them to trade with the Karaz Ankor via Thorek, which will soonTM lead to the first expansion of Tor Lithanel in its history, of which the Queen and her political allies are ready to take advantage of. It's given them insights into College, Ice and even Dwarf magic to some degree. They just signed a treaty in which the Emperor, the Phoenix King and other two major nations in the continent implicitly recognized Laurelorn as a sovereign country.

Meanwhile, Kislev has been one of the Project's main sponsors, and they've got... just about nothing. Wait, no, there were these Norscans that Niedzwenka got Eltharion to destroy. That's about it. While being the country in most urgent need, and the one that will very likely bear the brunt of the next Everchosen in barely a couple decades.

Putting the first Waystone in Praag isn't snubbing anyone, it's a declaration of intentions. It's a giant middle finger to Chaos. I doubt anyone will complain.
 
Prophetesses can cast from at least three different winds and they've been doing that for millennia. I would be incredibly disappointed in Bretonnia if they couldn't beat some random dude from a year-old tradition bound to a single wind in terms of multi-wind enchantment (admittingly he was taught by Teclis). I also remember Boney saying that just because Damsels aren't known for casting from the Lore of Shadows doesn't mean they are incapable of it. Though I can't find that statement.

The Project cannot research how to build nexuses on its own, even with Bretonnia's aid. It is a political matter. Ulthuan knows how, but they won't share unless they are convinced to. Bretonnia has a lot more connections with Ulthuan than all the other members of the Project. They would help a lot there.

Zlata might even succeed at both the Belthani and Scythian tributary designs!

I was more talking about the capstone, which needs high magic, which only Fay Enchantress can use. I´m sure there are at least some damsels that could be said to be Von Tarnuses equal (as there could be some Imperial wizards, if they really put their mind to it), but i think thats wasting resources. Why go the hard way when, if we follow the process, the enchantments will get much, much simpler.

Also, Ulthuan does not, as a matter of fact, know how to build Nexuses. I am not actually sure if Golden Age Elven-Dwarven partnership knew how to. They know how to set one up from parts, which itself would be useful, but the main component stone that does all the mystery work seems to be as much a black box to them as it is to us.
 
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I'm personally inclined to deploy the first batch of waystones around Middenheim's and/or the Pass of Stone's nexuses. It was the alliance between Laurelorn and Middenland that allowed for the Project to happen in the first place, so it does not spurn our hosts, and it directly tackles one of the biggest hot spots of danger around: the Drakwald, which is a threat to both. It's practical and a political W.

Furthermore, we have yet to examine Kislev's network and don't know how exactly it may differ from the rest. It could hopefully end up fine because it was once connected to the main network... Or it could end up needing tweaking. Although I can't imagine the Ancient Widow rejecting more magic being sent her way, there could be some conflict between her and Caledor.
 
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Putting the first Waystone in Praag isn't snubbing anyone, it's a declaration of intentions. It's a giant middle finger to Chaos. I doubt anyone will complain.
There is nothing in this comment that addresses anything I said.

Only being a few years into the Project does not matter for the discussion. What matters is the order of deployment. The elven timespan means that we can take longer before deploying. It does not mean we can put them behind the other nations. We have already put Laurelorn, the host and bigger contributor, behind other members. Tributaries first got deployed to Stirland, then Kislev. The elves will not be annoyed if we start deploying waystones in a decade. They will be annoyed if they aren't first.

Literally anyone would be annoyed if they didn't get first priority for a Project that they have clearly done the majority of the work for.

All the connections that Laurelorn have made are nice! It's great even. But that doesn't matter anything because there are waystones up for deployment and their work isn't being respected. They also are not things that the Project gave them. They're side benefits of the Project. They are things that Laurelorn worked for.

Kislev has gotten tributaries. They aren't making them yet, but that's because they are busy. We did everything on our end to arrange it. And they are not one of the main contributors of the Project, in terms of actual contributions. We've complained about Zlata a lot! While Niedzwenka is delightful to read, and her tributary is nice, she hasn't given us much waystone components. We didn't use the component she provided either. Boris does not expect to get waystones first. Laurelorn does.

I was more talking about the capstone, which needs high magic, which only Fay Enchantress can use. I´m sure there are at least some damsels that could be said to be Von Tarnuses equal (as there could be some Imperial wizards, if they really put their mind to it), but i think thats wasting resources. Why go the hard way when, if we follow the process, the enchantments will get much, much simpler.

Also, Ulthuan does not, as a matter of fact, know how to build Nexuses. I am not actually sure if Golden Age Elven-Dwarven partnership knew how to. They know how to set one up from parts, which itself would be useful, but the main component stone that does all the mystery work is as much a black box to them as it is to us.
They can get capstones from Ulthuan? I was saying that high magic enchanters was not a significant bottleneck. The storage is a bottleneck. Laurelorn alone easily has the capability to provide capstones for the current members, before even considering Ulthuan's enchanters. I do not understand what you are saying about the storage. Getting as many people as possible working on simplifying the storage is the easy way. Just letting elven archmages work on that will slow down the deployment of waystones. It's a basic number game: Elven Archmages + the whole continent's Von Tarnus equivalents > Elven Archmages + the Empire&Kislev's Von Tarnus equivalents, if they even have one. Hell, there's a decent chance that Bretonnia has more people capable of creating the storage than Laurelorn, the Empire, and Kislev combined.

By that standard the elves of the Golden Age didn't know how to build nexuses. Because that's how they built nexuses back in the Golden Age. Take an Old One monolith then turn it into a nexus. We are not going to learn how to replicate the creations of the Old Ones when even the Golden Age could not. I never said anything like that.

I'm personally inclined to deploy the first batch of waystones around Middenheim's and/or the Pass of Stone's nexuses. It was the alliance between Laurelorn and Middenland that allowed for the Project to happen in the first place, so it does not spurn our hosts, and it directly tackles one of the biggest hot spots of danger around: the Drakwald. It's practical and a political W.
I don't think the Pass of Stone will be an option, that's too granular. It'd much easier to write-in Laurelorn and let Mathilde arrange the rest. I'm opposed to Middenland for a similar reason that I'm opposed to Kislev: Laurelorn has carried the entire project. It'd be an insult to do it first anywhere else.
 
I don't think the Pass of Stone will be an option, that's too granular. It'd much easier to write-in Laurelorn and let Mathilde arrange the rest. I'm opposed to Middenland for a similar reason that I'm opposed to Kislev: Laurelorn has carried the entire project. It'd be an insult to do it first anywhere else.
I mean, that's fair, and that could end up happening. But we know that the Middenheim nexus directly connects to Tor Lithanel, so for purposes of them benefiting directly from waystones, it makes little difference whether they get the energy from Tor Lithanel or from Middenheim.

If anything, they'd probably see more energy coming in from Middenheim given that it's closer to the Drakwald and also has the Brass Keep to worry about. While they definitely wouldn't get the explicit political prestige of being the first to get them, and there's probably corners of Laurelorn that need direct help, it is in no sense a loss and I really wouldn't see it as an insult.

Again, I'm not opposed to deploying them first to Laurelorn in general - for all we know we give them waystones and Marrisith uses this exact same reasoning to "share" theirs with Middenheim.
 
There is nothing in this comment that addresses anything I said.

Only being a few years into the Project does not matter for the discussion. What matters is the order of deployment. The elven timespan means that we can take longer before deploying. It does not mean we can put them behind the other nations. We have already put Laurelorn, the host and bigger contributor, behind other members. Tributaries first got deployed to Stirland, then Kislev. The elves will not be annoyed if we start deploying waystones in a decade. They will be annoyed if they aren't first.

Literally anyone would be annoyed if they didn't get first priority for a Project that they have clearly done the majority of the work for.

All the connections that Laurelorn have made are nice! It's great even. But that doesn't matter anything because there are waystones up for deployment and their work isn't being respected. They also are not things that the Project gave them. They're side benefits of the Project. They are things that Laurelorn worked for.

Kislev has gotten tributaries. They aren't making them yet, but that's because they are busy. We did everything on our end to arrange it. And they are not one of the main contributors of the Project, in terms of actual contributions. We've complained about Zlata a lot! While Niedzwenka is delightful to read, and her tributary is nice, she hasn't given us much waystone components. We didn't use the component she provided either. Boris does not expect to get waystones first. Laurelorn does.

I think the Elves will, in fact, understand that we're prioritizing 'turning into the Chaos Wastes every passing day' or 'the nights are filled with the screams of these sacrificed to Chaos in the Great War' in Kislev over the 'concerning, but not urgent' situation in Laurelorn. If you think they'd want some gesture we can always put some tributaries in Laurelorn first/at the same time (does Laurelorn count as 'Nordland' enough for the Halétan one?) but I really think we should put our costly and time consuming Waystones where they can help the most.
If it was just like Mordheim (which is uninhabited) or even Sylvania (which is mostly under control) I wouldn't really mind, but Praag is not only inhabited but also will be the first target of the next Everchosen that attacks the Old World, and it would be really really good if we had cleansed the corruption by then but these things take its time and every year could count.

The Pass of Stone near the Drakwald could be good enough though, since we do really want to put Waystones there in the short to medium term as well. But in, say, Tor Lithanel or the 'core' parts of Laurelorn? I'm not a fan.
 
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From what I understand the whole reason why Laurelon wanted the waystone project was to generate political goodwill and demonstrate the benefits of maintaining good diplomatic relationship with them. As such erecting waystones where they will be pushing back Chaos Wastes/Sylvania/etc. while very publicly giving Eonir credit for being orginal proposers, hosts, and vital lynchpin of the project seems by the best course IMO.
 
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I mean, that's fair, and that could end up happening. But we know that the Middenheim nexus directly connects to Tor Lithanel, so for purposes of them benefiting directly from waystones, it makes little difference whether they get the energy from Tor Lithanel or from Middenheim.

If anything, they'd probably see more energy coming in from Middenheim given that it's closer to the Drakwald and also has the Brass Keep to worry about. While they definitely wouldn't get the explicit political prestige of being the first to get them, and there's probably corners of Laurelorn that need direct help, it is in no sense a loss and I really wouldn't see it as an insult.

Again, I'm not opposed to deploying them first to Laurelorn in general - for all we know we give them waystones and Marrisith uses this exact same reasoning to "share" theirs with Middenheim.
Sure, but it's not the energy that Laurelorn would be pissed about missing. It's about the prestige of being first. It is also about shoring up those areas without waystones. Sure, Middenland cleaning up its land is nice, it's great even! But it's not Laurelorn that is being fixed.

I think the Elves will, in fact, understand that we're prioritizing 'turning into the Chaos Wastes every passing day' or 'the nights are filled with the screams of these sacrificed to Chaos in the Great War' in Kislev over the 'concerning, but not urgent' situation in Laurelorn. If you think they'd want some gesture we can always put some tributaries in Laurelorn first/at the same time (does Laurelorn count as 'Nordland' enough for the Halétan one?) but I really think we should put our costly and time consuming Waystones where they can help the most.
If it was just like Mordheim (which is uninhabited) or even Sylvania (which is mostly under control) I wouldn't really mind, but Praag is not only inhabited but also will be the first target of the next Everchosen that attacks the Old World, and it would be really really good if we had cleansed the corruption by then but these things take its time and every year could count.

The Pass of Stone near the Drakwald could be good enough though, since we do really want to put Waystones there in the short to medium term as well. But in, say, Tor Lithanel or the 'core' parts of Laurelorn? I'm not a fan.
Putting in tributaries is obvious ass-covering and will just piss them off further. Elves do not need tributaries as much as humans. They can deal with magic a lot better than humans can and even prefer it. Laurelorn did basically ALL the work. They even designed the tributary that convinced Ulthuan to fork over the leyline keyphrases! An extra half-year will not save Praag. It will mean that Laurelorn won't be annoyed at Mathilde for snubbing them. The choice here, is obvious.

I expect places like Praag to be an option, but not places like the Pass of Stone. That is too granular, as I already said. Just write-in 'Laurelorn' and Mathilde will handle it.

Laurelorn is not in the Forest of Shadows. Boney has said that if you want to deploy tributaries to to Laurelorn you will need to deploy Dreaming Wood tributaries to Nordland.

From what I understand the whole reason why Laurelon wanted the waystone project was to generate political goodwill and demonstrate the benefits of being in good diplomatic relationship with them. As such erecting waystones where they will be pushing back Chaos Wastes/Sylvania/etc. while very publicly giving Eonir credit for being orginal proposers, hosts, and vital lynchpin of the project seems by the best course IMO.
They get to say that whether Kislev is first to get waystones or not. They do not get to say that Laurelorn was first to receive waystones if Laurelorn was not first to get waystones. Laurelorn is basically 80% of the reason why these waystones even exist. Not putting them there first will piss them off.
 
Putting the first waystone in Praag isn't stubbing anyone, we're already developing tributaries in Stirland and that didn't upset anyone.

The point of the project was always to figure out how to do this stuff and then send that knowledge back home.
Its down to politicians back home to negotiate for time and resources that their local magical tradition cannot supply.

Nobody was expecting Mathilde to personally reinstall the waystone network, it was always the intention that it would be done by others after we'd figured out how to.
In that way the premise is flawed. The first waystone we install will primarily be a proof of concept. And its probably going to be installed somewhere that its fairly convenient and safe to travel to and from incase the experiment fails, so probably not Troll Country
After that its out of our hands and is politically going to come down to who is willing to invest the most, which is probably going to be Boris anyway but any political insult of the first place position being stolen (which frankly seems like a very marginal amount) would be on him not us.
 
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I feel like this can be easily resolved by, uh, simply doing both Kislev and Laurelorn options? We have the AP for both.
 
I don´t think even the Elves can possibly argue that putting the first waystone into a country that is literally transitioning into chaos wastes with each passing year will be some sort of political suicide.

And the ones from Laurelorn are notably more pragmatic than their reputation would suggest.

I feel like this can be easily resolved by, uh, simply doing both Kislev and Laurelorn options? We have the AP for both.
Or that yeah, as remarked earlier, Laurelorn is tiiiiny.

Also:
They can get capstones from Ulthuan?
How the hell do you square that with "Well we are getting nothing from Ulthuan until we contribute further". Are we supposed to just make them their own prototype? I would rather they just negotiate with dwarves tbh.
 
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So, currently I'm leaning towards Laurelorn for the first deployment, not for reasons of prestige and people feeling snubbed, but for this reason:
Could we just ask the Ice Witches if Leyline-based Transmission would work for Kislev? Not any detailed questions about how their sub-network works just a yes or no on whether Leylines work for them. After all, presumably, they would want us to make a Waystone model that they can use and I don't think they'd lose much by answering the question.
You did and they shrugged. They probably wouldn't be here if they still had the level of understanding that completely rebuilt the Waystone network within Kislev.
We don't actually know whether we can plug Waystones into Kislev's Waystone network. This is the reason why I have said that, to me, investigating Kislev's network next turn is non-negotiable, i.e. I will not vote for a plan without it and I will actively campaign for something with it to dethrone a leading plan that doesn't have it.

"But Pickle," you might say, reasonable and wise (and, dare I say it, stunningly attractive) interlocutor that you are, "we can double up! One action to investigate the Kislevite network, then one action to roll out in Kislev. Mathilde will do the investigation first, test out the Anoqeyan commands or get the Ice Witches to test it, and then if it works that's awesome and if not we've still got rivers as backup while we figure out how to plug into their leylines, right?"

Imaginary interlocutor, you are entirely correct from a practical standpoint, as befits someone of your reason, wisdom, attractiveness, &c. The problem is that we justified our exchange with Ulthuan to Tzar Boris by explaining to him the degree to which cleaning up Kislev's Dhar by dumping it in Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov was a bad idea we didn't want to do:
He smiles. "The wealth of Ulthuan is legendary. I can think of many ways Kislev could be convinced."

Yes, everyone else reacted that way at first too. "That may not be the best price to extract from them. The means of connecting a new Waystone to the network cannot be reverse engineered - it has a security mechanism of sorts protecting it - and must be acquired from either Ulthuan or Naggaroth. There are potential workarounds for that we've been working on, but they would be inefficient and could negatively influence the area around them. It was my hope that Ulthuan could be convinced to become a part of the Project, which would involve them providing that means."

He frowns. "Negatively influence, how?"

"It would involve using rivers to transport the energies, and then spilling them out to be reabsorbed by nexuses at the mouth of rivers - in Kislev's case, Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov. The exact effect would depend on the energies in question, but considering the priority for Kislev would be removing the Chaos taint from Praag and Troll Country, it could be very bad for the affected places. It's possible we could refine the details to minimize that problem, but if we had Ulthuan's knowledge, we could build our additions directly into the existing network and not have any of those problems in the first place."
If we then go to him six months later and say "we couldn't get it working just yet so we're instead going to do the thing we specifically told you we didn't want to do and passed up your impoverished nation getting a mountain of gold in order to avoid doing," we look like an idiot and, worse, a callous asshole. I'd much rather investigate Kislev's network and then, assuming that it's nontrivial to hook into their network, dedicate resources to solving that problem so we can clean up Kislev properly rather than dumping dark energies into their port cities. Maybe it will eventually turn out that there's no alternative except to do that! But it should be our last resort, not our immediate backup plan, which is what will happen if we try to hook up our dual-function Waystones and it turns out we can't hook them up to Kislev's leyline network.

So that's why I personally champion "investigate Kislev's network and start the rollout somewhere else, probably Laurelorn but Sylvania isn't a bad choice either" for next turn. In the best-case scenario, where it turns out Kislev's network is plug-and-play and there will be zero problems, we can just start rolling out in Kislev on the turn after -- I 100% agree that it is the highest priority in a vacuum. The six-month delay shouldn't be a huge deal compared to the egg on our face we avoid in the not best-case scenarios.
 
I mean honestly i really like this bit
The configuration you've decided on is one heavily reliant on components designed by the Grey Lords, with only the Dwarven Rune and the Jade riverine transmission being designed by others. If taken as a message, it would be one that argues the wisdom of Laurelorn as the host of the Waystone Project and seeks to justify the nascent alliance Middenland struck with them. But as the piece of magical architecture it actually is, it is a vanguard, and it is in that where one can find the true statement of intent. If all you wanted was to fill already-secured territory to make it proof against the ravages of Morrsleib and storms of magic, or to gradually chip away at the edges of corrupted areas like Sylvania and the Drakwald, then there were much easier ways to accomplish that. This configuration is built for beachheads, to be erected where it is least welcome and to begin the work of draining away the worst pockets of corruption on the continent. In that purpose it not only matches the Waystones of the Golden Age, but exceeds them.
I would honestly rather investigate Kislev network and then try to deploy there turn later. Its almost like we custom made the sucker for Kislev deployment.
 
If we really want to give Eonir their diplomatic win, just give then a very prominent ceremony in Kislev. The very act of healing Prag will result in the greatest possible prestige for everyone involved.
 
Putting the first waystone in Praag isn't stubbing anyone, we're already developing tributaries in Stirland and that didn't upset anyone.

The point of the project was always to figure out how to do this stuff and then send that knowledge back home.
Its down to politicians back home to negotiate for time and resources that their local magical tradition cannot supply.

Nobody was expecting Mathilde to personally reinstall the waystone network, it was always the intention that it would be done by others after we'd figured out how to.
In that way the premise is flawed. The first waystone we install will primarily be a proof of concept. And its probably going to be installed somewhere that its fairly convenient and safe to travel to and from incase the experiment fails, so probably not Troll Country
After that its out of our hands and is politically going to come down to who is willing to invest the most, which is probably going to be Boris anyway but any political insult of the first place position being stolen (which frankly seems like a very marginal amount) would be on him not us.
I feel like Praag fails all of the conditions you mentioned for the first waystone. It's not safe or convenient for the Project. Laurelorn fulfills all those conditions, and the best of any power on the planet. But comparing it to the tributaries is wrong. Tributaries aren't very significant, they're only significant if they establish a pattern.

That's not how Boney has described the deployment of waystones. We need deploy waystones so other people start trying to get them on their own. Laurelorn, however, is the host and greatest contributor of the Project. So obviously all their hard work needs to be honored with dibs. Then arrange for them to go Praag, Mordheim, Sylvania, ect. Probably to the Karaz Ankor too. They're not going to do it on their own any time in the next millennia.

The most straightforward way to get widespread utilization of new Waystones would be to do plenty of impressive little things or a few impressive big things with the Mathilde-driven Waystone rollout that everyone understands their utility and will start pulling strings and calling in favours of their own accord to get it done in their backyard. There are other ways to go about it, but that's the way that's probably the most efficient and probably the most interesting to read about.

I feel like this can be easily resolved by, uh, simply doing both Kislev and Laurelorn options? We have the AP for both.
Eh. I'm not confident that we can. I don't want to deploy waystones to Kislev without investigating their network first. Laurelorn's network is still overseen by Caledor. But Kislev's network is overseen by the Ancient Widow. So who the hell knows if it will work. I've been assuming everyone wants to investigate Kislev's network next turn.

If we know the leyline method won't work for the Karaz Ankor specifically because their network isn't connected to the Vortex, then we also know by induction that it won't work for Kislev, because they share the same issue.
You really wouldn't. The two networks are completely different in a whole bunch of ways.

I don´t think even the Elves can possibly argue that putting the first waystone into a country that is literally transitioning into chaos wastes with each passing year will be some sort of political suicide.

And the ones from Laurelorn are notably more pragmatic than their reputation would suggest.

How the hell do you square that with "Well we are getting nothing from Ulthuan until we contribute further". Are we supposed to just make them their own prototype? I would rather they just negotiate with dwarves tbh.
Sure they can! They did basically all the work involved in the Project. And now Mathilde wants to deploy the waystone to a country that did even less than the Empire? Literally everyone involved in the Project would be annoyed if they put in as much effort into something as Laurelorn has and they didn't get dibs.

...Buy them? Like the enchantment is trivial. The Empire has access to the foundation enchantment. It seems fairly obvious that they'd be given the capstone enchantment. It is just a matter of buying it from them. (Edit: To be clear, giving Ulthuan legos to put together its own waystone will not earn the Project many brownie points.)

The Karaz Ankor doesn't even trade with Ulthuan. Ulthuan buys dwarf engineering products through proxies, and engineers are some of the most 'progressive' parts of the Karaz Ankor. Runesmiths are some of the most conservative fuckers on the planet. Runesmiths will sell Ulthuan runes the day that the Chaos Gods collectively apologize to the whole world for being assholes and embrace pacifism.

If we really want to give Eonir their diplomatic win, just give then a very prominent ceremony in Kislev. The very act of healing Prag will result in the greatest possible prestige for everyone involved.
Do they get to say they got the first waystone in your scenario or not? If yes, then they won't be pissed. If not, they will.
 
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Sure they can! They did basically all the work involved in the Project. And now Mathilde wants to deploy the waystone to a country that did even less than the Empire? Literally everyone involved in the Project would be annoyed if they put in as much effort into something as Laurelorn has and they didn't get dibs.
No they didn´t lol. The Waystone assembled leans on it heavily, but we could have just as easily slapped a much less complicated waystone from other parts. We didn´t sure, but that doesn´t mean that other people didn´t contribute just as much, and that in future, someone won´t decide to slap those simpler waystones together to see what sticks.

Honestly, part of "this is what the waystone is" is even in the update quote. Its a beachhead. Laurelorn is not lost to corruption.

EDIT: Like, politically, you could just as well deploy it smackdab in middle of Mordheim and say "look at what we did with help of elves, Middenland is smart, all hail our glorious helpers" and Elves would go "fuck yeah, one more step away from extinction". They are pragmatic sort. I´m pretty sure they understand enough.
 
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I feel like Praag fails all of the conditions you mentioned for the first waystone.
....
so probably not Troll Country
Glad we agree.
So let me be clear.
I don't think Kislev is a good site for the first waystone, but also I think your reasons for thinking that are stupid.
E:
That's not how Boney has described the deployment of waystones. We need deploy waystones so other people start trying to get them on their own.
Reports that the average Imperial created 0.1 waystones were incorrect. 'Waystones' Mathilde who personally created and maintains over a million waystones was a statistical outlier and should not have been counted.
 
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Putting in tributaries is obvious ass-covering and will just piss them off further. Elves do not need tributaries as much as humans. They can deal with magic a lot better than humans can and even prefer it. Laurelorn did basically ALL the work. They even designed the tributary that convinced Ulthuan to fork over the leyline keyphrases! An extra half-year will not save Praag. It will mean that Laurelorn won't be annoyed at Mathilde for snubbing them. The choice here, is obvious.

I expect places like Praag to be an option, but not places like the Pass of Stone. That is too granular, as I already said. Just write-in 'Laurelorn' and Mathilde will handle it.

Laurelorn is not in the Forest of Shadows. Boney has said that if you want to deploy tributaries to to Laurelorn you will need to deploy Dreaming Wood tributaries to Nordland.


Laurelorn does have a problem with the lornalim, namely the precious metals under them. Not that big of a problem now that most of Nordland's settlements are... not there anymore, but there are still a few left near the coast, and they probably won't have covered all the formerly 'lost' areas yet; and either way, they'd probably appreciate ones that don't need precious metals for historical reasons. Dreaming Wood tributaries could work quite well there.

You watch as a second wisp of Ulgu is greedily drunk by the tree. "They're natural Waystones."

"Yes, for a certain definition of 'natural'. Tributaries to the leyline-streams. But quite dependent on the metals they take their name from, and given a choice between material wealth and the continued existence of life on this world, your kind has a distressing tendency to choose wealth."

You think again of Salzenmund's twin industries of silversmithing and carpentry and wince. "Ah," you say.

"Our long resistance against Drakwald sapped both our and their strength, until they fell to Beastmen and we nearly with them. So when Nordland began to encroach, we measured what lornalim losses we could sustain without our forests becoming thick with stagnant magic and swarming with Beastmen, and for a time we achieved peace with the Nordlanders. But every new generation and each new Grand Baron wanted more, and when more was not given, they took anyway. We were faced with a slow extinction by Beastman predation, or a fast extinction by a new war. Until we encountered an army of Middenland while fighting the slow extinction, and found a third way forward. One that required only a few villages to die." She kneels down and runs a finger along a barely-visible vein of silver along a sapling's trunk. "If we had waited just a few more years, we would have felt the reactivation of Karak Eight Peaks ripple through the leylines and known that there may be a fourth way, a way not so steeped in blood. History seems to delight in making fools of us all."


Also, what Laurelorn did was important, but they certainly didn't do all the work, or even most of it. They did design 3/5 of the components of the current Waystone design, but that's only because we deliberately went with a 'highest possible quality' design, which is closest to the Elven paradigm, as seen by how we used the only three Elf-designed components; if we want a more specialized one (for just leylines, or for just rivers, or even just the most spammable design possible) we would need a lot less of them. Overall, they've made 3 out of the 15 unique components designed, and 1 out of the 3 new Tributary designs. Not counting all the work mappind the Leylines, or locating the Athel Yenlui Nexus, etc. Significant, sure, but I'd argue the Colleges have done about as much together.
 
I sympathize with "we should really give our hosts an obvious Big Win," arguments for giving Laurelorn the first Waystone. As noted Waystones are considered a Big Deal in a way tributaries are not--see Tinodimel (sp? Hekarti worshipping house our elf professor is from) rolling their eyes at crafting tributaries but specifically wanting first right of refusal for Waystone crafting. Symbols are important and the Queen being able to point to The First New Waystone in Ages is much more potent than any number of space trades or cool fog roads.

I think it would be possible to mollify people by making a First!Kislevian Waystone like obnoxiously Laurelorian and a really big ceremony, but I'm kinda eh on the idea. Combined with the imo excelllent point we really ought to look into Kislevs jailbroken network make me really wanna do

--Install first Waystone in Laurelorn
--Investigate Kislev Waystone Network

I'll admit im not sure which camp I'd fully fall into if we knew for certain "oh yeah we can plug n play into Kislevs winter loop" but since that uncertainty dpes exist I prefer the above two vs just going for first install in Kislev
 
So, currently I'm leaning towards Laurelorn for the first deployment, not for reasons of prestige and people feeling snubbed, but for this reason:


We don't actually know whether we can plug Waystones into Kislev's Waystone network. This is the reason why I have said that, to me, investigating Kislev's network next turn is non-negotiable, i.e. I will not vote for a plan without it and I will actively campaign for something with it to dethrone a leading plan that doesn't have it.

"But Pickle," you might say, reasonable and wise (and, dare I say it, stunningly attractive) interlocutor that you are, "we can double up! One action to investigate the Kislevite network, then one action to roll out in Kislev. Mathilde will do the investigation first, test out the Anoqeyan commands or get the Ice Witches to test it, and then if it works that's awesome and if not we've still got rivers as backup while we figure out how to plug into their leylines, right?"

Imaginary interlocutor, you are entirely correct from a practical standpoint, as befits someone of your reason, wisdom, attractiveness, &c. The problem is that we justified our exchange with Ulthuan to Tzar Boris by explaining to him the degree to which cleaning up Kislev's Dhar by dumping it in Erengrad and Castle Alexandronov was a bad idea we didn't want to do:

If we then go to him six months later and say "we couldn't get it working just yet so we're instead going to do the thing we specifically told you we didn't want to do and passed up your impoverished nation getting a mountain of gold in order to avoid doing," we look like an idiot and, worse, a callous asshole. I'd much rather investigate Kislev's network and then, assuming that it's nontrivial to hook into their network, dedicate resources to solving that problem so we can clean up Kislev properly rather than dumping dark energies into their port cities. Maybe it will eventually turn out that there's no alternative except to do that! But it should be our last resort, not our immediate backup plan, which is what will happen if we try to hook up our dual-function Waystones and it turns out we can't hook them up to Kislev's leyline network.

So that's why I personally champion "investigate Kislev's network and start the rollout somewhere else, probably Laurelorn but Sylvania isn't a bad choice either" for next turn. In the best-case scenario, where it turns out Kislev's network is plug-and-play and there will be zero problems, we can just start rolling out in Kislev on the turn after -- I 100% agree that it is the highest priority in a vacuum. The six-month delay shouldn't be a huge deal compared to the egg on our face we avoid in the not best-case scenarios.

This is a good point, but I wonder if we couldn't investigate the Kislev Network and, see if we can connect the Waystones to it, and put them somewhere else instead if we can't?

@Boney , would that be possible? Could we specify in a plan something like '[] Waystone: Deployment (Kislev if by then we know how to connect it to the local Network, Drakenhof if we don't)'?

(I know the answer is probably 'no', but I had to ask)
 
As far as I am concerned anybody who argues for Brettonian waystones before Sylvanian ones are vampire thralls and should be handed over to witch hunters.

Kislev, Sylvania Laurelorn, Middle Mountains and Drachenfels then once they are done we can talk Brettonia. Forest of Shadows can be taken with Brettonian help after that.
Well unless Brettonia somehow offers us something that allows for massively increased waystone production. It's unlikely but if they manage to double our production somehow I can see send a fraction of that increased production their way.
 
Well unless Brettonia somehow offers us something that allows for massively increased waystone production. It's unlikely but if they manage to double our production somehow I can see send a fraction of that increased production their way.

We know Maidens are capable of multi-wind casting without excessive Dhar fuckery, and hypothetically maybe this means they can do the "basic" high magic needed for the capstone. If capstone is the bottleneck for Waystone production (I think storage did succeed in getting somewhat improved?) they might be able to help there?
 
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