Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[henkalv]

[] Political success, moderate cost
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runed
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

Everyone contributes, nobody gets their hackles raised politically, nothing valuable on it that a peasant might run off with, no maintenance, not overly complicated or costly. Needs to be hooked up to the leylines in the existing network and it's not super exciting, but it completes the assignment. @picklepikkl

For the storage, is the reversed engineered one actually better than any of the other options? People are focusing a lot on it getting simpler to make over time, but is it actually a better option than the others?

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's only bad for political purposes. The update explicitly says it's easier (simple, rather than moderately complicated) than the other two options for Foundation.

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It's also not as friendly for throughput, given you are restricting it to roughly 1 in 8 human wizards.

Grey Lord is the clear-cut best option for a magical solution- any wizard can make it, and it doesn't seem to have any particular downside beyond "you are doing this by rote".

Which, much like the "needs literally the best human enchanter in modern history" option, I would expect people to eventually figure out anyway. Because it's clearly not as complex.

 

[Gavin Prince]

Let's say for the sake of argument that you had already done that action and it had revealed that the leyline method is incompatible with the Karaz Ankor network. What alternate transmission method would that cause voters to pivot towards? The one that is also incompatible with the Karaz Ankor network or the ones that haven't actually been invented yet?

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If we discover on our exploration that the leyline method won't work for the Karaz Ankor specifically because their network isn't connected to the Vortex, then we also know by induction that it won't work for Kislev, because they share the same issue.

 

[The Phoenixian]

I don't think requiring upkeep is entirely a bad thing.

A lot of the current issue is that people forgot or just never knew how important the waystones are. Needing to maintain them to keep them functioning could serve to keep them in people's minds.

Human memories are short, but they can be refreshed.

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Oh belch, I was going to respond to this in my proposal but deleted it by accident.

Personally, I feel like the merits and detriments of upkeep is pretty-purpose dependent.

A general use waystone meant to be plonked down wherever, yeah, it's a non-starter. For something meant to protect a community? In that case maintenance requirements become much more reasonable. Especially ritual maintenance in a place where you have enough people to carry on a tradition.

There's also the possibility that you may want the waystone network to shut down in certain circumstances: If a conqueror going ham risks shutting down local traditions, the waystones going offline may be a benefit in some cases.

 

[Boney]

If we know the leyline method won't work for the Karaz Ankor specifically because their network isn't connected to the Vortex, then we also know by induction that it won't work for Kislev, because they share the same issue.

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You really wouldn't. The two networks are completely different in a whole bunch of ways.

 

[CornyBones]

...Omegahugger doesn't appear to be here, so in his stead I will say that I think we can source the solution for this problem via unconventional methods

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We can leverage the labor of an untapped unconventional workforce for the good of the continent! Cheap, and inexhaustible! Whats not to like!!!

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Something like this:

[] All Stars, Extra Dwarf
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

CAPSTONE REASONING

We need to include the elves in the first template somehow, and the stone flower, much as I dislike requiring High Magic, does seem to be the qualitatively best option- the collegiate enchantment isn't very robust, the dwarf method lets extra dhar through. Furthermore, it might be High Magic, but at least it sounds like the simplest possible application, so if it has to be included, this is the least compromise we are getting.

RUNE REASONING

It's a rune. It goes to the dwarves. However, given the fact that it could, apparently, be made just by a muggle mason, I don't think this is enough buy-in.

STORAGE REASONING

This is where we get the real dwarf buy-in. I furthermore think it also just so happens to be a happy coincidence that dwarves are very rich, so the expense isn't as big of a deal, and runecraft sounds like a very, very good method for reliably storing large amounts of magic without shenanigans happening because of it.

This is giving the dwarves arguably the bit most suitable for their skills- reliable storage of energy, materially expensive.

I don't even consider the reverse-engineered option. There is like one human in a thousand years that has managed the level of skill necessary for this. I think it'd be extremely unwise to make that the standard model, even if it may become easier, I wouldn't hold my breath. We have nothing short of three other options which are much simpler and seemingly equally viable- if not better.

FOUNDATION REASONING

Collegiate method is politically not good, and it's also highly restrictive- only Lights mean 1 in 8 human wizards, that's a huge bottleneck and it also creates undesirable internal political pressures, beyond the "messing with dhar" one. Grey Lord method can be done by any flavor of wizard, and is therefore highly scalable, without requiring clockwork's monthly maintenance.

TRANSMISSION REASONING

Leylines is a freebie, no reason not to unless it's literally impossible for a region, given that we have the passphrase, so the hardest part is already done for us. Furthermore, the jade method presents a very good opportunity, both politically and practically.

Politically, it's a massive victory to be able to point at our model and say "this is objectively better than the ancient wonder it's replacing".

Practically, a fuck-off stone monolith at the bottom of the river is a sensational back-up. This means that the network getting temporarily disconnected won't flood an area with pooling magic. It's just an incredible upgrade in keeping the network reliable.

The fact that it creates a buy-in for the empire is icing on the cake.

@picklepikkl This is what I think would be the most optimal performance and balance between political buy-in between Empire, Karaz Ankor and Elves.

Hell, the riverie thing means it probably works in Kislev, too.

 

[Gavin Prince]

Well, I guess it actually is for the best that we didn't do it in that order, as the results would have tainted the discussion whichever way it shook out.

It'd be hard to convince people that discoveries on one network don't apply at least in part to another when the issues overlap. I can accept that's true, but there'd always be the thought of "If it did(n't) work in A, it certainly will (not) work in B"

By leaving the KA results undecided, we have to decide on the best take for Kislev on a blank slate, rather than potentially false data.

 

[chocolote12]

If we give the way stones to the river spirits do you think they'd enjoy having them?

Like, as the geography equivalent of jewelry?

Because it's probably pretty hard for magical abstractions of geographic systems to get jewelry, but a sufficiently large and processed rock that was specifically presented to them to make their environment cleaner and prettier sounds like a good first try.

 

[Aliya]

I actually think that the river spirit ritual might be better than Jade solution, due to being very flexible and capable of being used by non-sind wizards, like Hags or Ice Court.

 

[Gavin Prince]

If we give the way stones to the river spirits do you think they'd enjoy having them?

Like, as the geography equivalent of jewelry?

Because it's probably pretty hard for magical abstractions of geographic systems to get jewelry, but a sufficiently large and processed rock that was specifically presented to them to make their environment cleaner and prettier sounds like a good first try.

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I'd expect it would depend on the whims of the spirit. They might be angered at their ugliness, or if they do see it as pretty, regard it like we would a radium-painted brooch: maybe pretty, but comes with side effects that outweigh its beauty. Or they might, as you suggest, love them fully and enthusiastically. Hard to predict.

 

[ChronOblivion]

Every part of me is screaming to make something cheap and scalable, something that we can hand to all involved parties that they can afford to build a bunch of. It feels insane to build an impractical prototype that few will want to build when we can just do the mass production unit now. The pile of rocks was such a runaway success because it was cheap and easy and immediately useful. Make a bigger version of that, then refine that. Also don't make it codependent enough that the design becomes impossible if any necessary parties are unreachable.

 

[MrHobbit]

Personally, I definitely want at least two versions of the Waystone, with one being the riverine/leyline hybrid. It is a direct improvement with very obvious special case uses, but there's no reason whatsoever to build it where there are no rivers. So the "standard" Waystone, which would probably be the one we make first, doesn't need to be a riverine one. And making one that is only riverine as the first prototype seems like an odd choice.

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The worst part is that rivers are some of the places least likely to need waystones in the Empire. I've said before that they are where the Empire can best deploy soldiers to defend the waystones. So not only are they limited in deployment, but we wouldn't even really need to deploy them in much of the area that we can deploy them. It just adds extra complications.

If we discover on our exploration that the leyline method won't work for the Karaz Ankor specifically because their network isn't connected to the Vortex, then we also know by induction that it won't work for Kislev, because they share the same issue.

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The passcodes worked to disconnect the Karak-waystone to Karak Vlag. But I think the biggest problem here is in convincing Dwarfs to connect waystones to the Karak-nexuses. Boney implied that Dwarfs don't use tributaries and suggested that Dwarfs think that infrastructure outside of the Karak is inherently insecure. Waystones pose a lot more security risk than tributaries. And tradition is on the side of not adding them.

Ulthuan taught Caledor the codes to respond to expand the Network. I don't know how they did it, but I'm sure the Ice Witches could do something similar. It's not like Caledor created the Great Vortex with the expectation that he would be casting the spell for seven millennia and that he would manage the waystone network of half the world.

This is a good point. Boney, if you don't mind my asking: do we know whether "dwarves not using tributaries" is the case, or would finding out whether this is the case be the result of taking the Waystone: Other Networks action for the Karaz Ankor?

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Dwarves have treated any infrastructure outside of a Karak as an inherent security risk since the Time of Woes.

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[chocolote12]

The variable cost might be off-putting, but the secret benefit is that if you put a river spirit on waystone management then that means that there's a river spirit paying attention to it.

River spirits can be pretty scary.

In addition, it would probably be easier to talk to them if you knew that they might be paying attention to a specific part of their banks.

River spirits are certainly worth talking to.

Finally, while there's always the possibility of a watery evil doer desiring something bad, I don't think that the requirements most of them present won't be worth doing for their own sake. That is to say, putting in the hours for their own sake could be fulfilling.

I want River Spirit reputation, even if we're going to be immediately spending the River Spirit favor we get.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Honestly, I think as long as we shoot for "both" in the transmission and avoid the reverse engineered storage and the collegiate foundation, we have a pretty decent argument for most options.

 

[Abhorsen]

[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
Another solid choice. The limitation of only light wizards though counteracts the simplicity and with the political issues the Grey Lord option looks better.

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Note that we can have elves cast this, and then the political issues go away. Boney did approve this. Then we have something simple without political issues.

Yeah, the Light-only foundation is pretty bad.

I don't appreciate that the Grey Lord one is so inscrutable, but giving the Light College all the influence in the making of such vital projects is not wise. It's also unnecessarily restrictive, when another, very good option is right there, even if, again, it's annoyingly inscrutable.

Hell, that might well change. You knock out a hundred of the things, I highly doubt you won't get a gist of how it works, especially when human magic is all savant-like.

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We can just tell the elves how to do this. This cuts out the lights and avoids political issues. Boney approved this.

 

[Gavin Prince]

Boney implied that Dwarfs don't use tributaries and suggested that Dwarfs think that infrastructure outside of the Karak is inherently insecure. Waystones pose a lot more security risk than tributaries.

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Scouting outposts and trade routes are also non-Karak infrastructure, and present security risks. The Dwarves continue to use both regardless as the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I don't think it's a case of "It's outside a Karak so we won't build it under any circumstance", it's "It's outside a Karak, so there'd better be a good reason to justify having to defend it."

 

[Alratan]

On the other hand, the rivers are exactly where you'd expect to see a more settled population.

If the local Ungols stay local year-round, I think maintenance on the bag of rocks would be doable- Ungol Krugs are used to following whatever the Hag Witches say they should do even if it doesn't make sense to them.

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I doubt it, as the rivers freeze probably freeze over during winter and the vegetation will still take a lot of time to recover.

If you look at historical steppe nomads they did migrate along rivers, but didn't particularly form permanent settlements on them. Their herds and them still needed to stay in motion.

This is particularly true in winter, when whole populations would move south.

I would replace the storage with Collage version* as well. Both to ensure politically Empire can't be cut out and we don't get overly reliant on Grey Lords but rest is good.
*[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.

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The problem is that making a Waystone into a piñata for valuable material is a bad idea, as Laurelorn has learned with its tributaries.

Also; as the reverse engineered version is improved Collegiate wizards should become able to make it.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Note that we can have elves cast this, and then the political issues go away. Boney did approve this. Then we have something simple without political issues.

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But you still have something that only the Light college can replicate, and something that is politically fraught for a critical piece of infrastructure. You can have the elves do it, but that just removes yet more agency from the human side and doesn't actually stop the humans from being able to do it.

Which, at some point, they will undoubtedly will be pressured into, either internally or externally. It's a problem waiting to happen.

The Grey Lord option is far and wide the most democratic option amongst the magic ones. Scales much better.

 

[Ergosum]

This is our proof of concept, so it should be the easiest/simplest one we can build, disregarding political issues and experimentality. My preference would be something like this:

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Less Dhar than runic, and doesn't require connection to the Network
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
They're the experts with Runes, so let them do it. We know that they used secret techniques to improve the effect on the original Waystones; let's give them the chance to do as their ancestors did.
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
This is probably the colleges' expertise. Material and Runed are probably very similar in effectiveness, though, so this is IMO the least clear cut decision.
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Simple, doesn't need manteinance (unlike clockwork), can be done by most colleges' enchanters as well, and is presumably less legally dodgy than the Light one.
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
The other options could be better in some situations, and we should really take a look at Both sometime in the future for incorporation into a hypothetical Waystone 2.0, but this is the probably easiest approach right now.

We can go back in the following turns and make more specialized Waystones, like one with Riverine or Both as transmission method, or 'just-in-case' designs fit for each of the polities involved (like Runic Inductor-Dwarven-Runed-Clockwork for the Karaz Ankor, or Stone Flower-Wizard-Enchanted-Grey Lord for Ulthuan/Laurelorn, or Collegiate Fascis-Wizard-Enchanted-Collegiate for the Empire), and maybe a 'spam' design easier to be mass produced like Runic Inductor-Carved-Material-Clockwork. But for now, a more general design is probably our best bet. It also has the political benefit of needing both elves, dwarves and humans to cooperate.


Edit: adding two variants with material/runed storage:
[ ] Plan Keep It Simple, with Material
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple, with more Runes
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runic
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

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@picklepikkl This plan (all three variants) is a relatively simple proof of concept intended to be further iterated while still being good and cheap enough for immediate deployment in large quantities.

 

[MrHobbit]

Scouting outposts and trade routes are also non-Karak infrastructure, and present security risks. The Dwarves continue to use both regardless as the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I don't think it's a case of "It's outside a Karak so we won't build it under any circumstance", it's "It's outside a Karak, so there'd better be a good reason to justify having to defend it."

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It is a lot easier for Dwarfs to monitor the flow of trade and capability of scouting outposts than of magic. Neither of them can be corrupted and turned into a flow of poison either.

And you missed the second argument: tradition. The Dwarfs of the Golden Age did not add waystones to the Karaz Ankor network. They were taught personally by the Ancestor Gods. They clearly had the capability to do it. I really do not think Mathilde has a chance of convincing dwarfs to budge on the issue, especially with both of those arguments.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

We can just tell the elves how to do this. This cuts out the lights and avoids political issues. Boney approved this.

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Far as I understand, Boney said that the elves can also do it. Which of course they can, it's simple Light magic, and the majority of elven mages can pick that up.

I don't see how you keep the Light college blind to this technique when they invented it.

I also don't see why you'd want to exclude the vast majority of human wizards from being able to contribute to a vital piece. Or all human wizards, for that matter.

 

[Abhorsen]

But you still have something that only the Light college can replicate, and something that is politically fraught for a critical piece of infrastructure. You can have the elves do it, but that just removes yet more agency from the human side and doesn't actually stop the humans from being able to do it.

It's a problem waiting to happen.

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The Grey lords thing done by humans is also politically fraught. All of the Foundation ones are, the Hysh one is just obviously problematic.

There's a hair to be split about whether an enchantment that creates and takes advantage of the attractive properties of Dhar would be considered a 'sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic', but it's not the sturdiest of arguments and the Colleges would much rather not need to make it. For that reason, it might be preferable to unload that task onto someone else.

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It also creates dhar, just with a more complicated process. If we want these to come out as quickly as possible, have elves do the Hysh enchantment. If we want an all human one, then sure, do the grey wizard stuff instead.

Far as I understand, Boney said that the elves can also do it. Which of course they can, it's simple Light magic, and the majority of elven mages can pick that up.

I don't see how you keep the Light college blind to this technique when they invented it.

I also don't see why you'd want to exclude the vast majority of human wizards from being able to contribute to a vital piece.

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They don't have to be blind to it, just not involved in doing it. It neatly dodges any politics while also being the best for mass production.

 

[fictionfan]

But you still have something that only the Light college can replicate, and something that is politically fraught for a critical piece of infrastructure. You can have the elves do it, but that just removes yet more agency from the human side and doesn't actually stop the humans from being able to do it.

Which, at some point, they will undoubtedly will be pressured into, either internally or externally. It's a problem waiting to happen.

The Grey Lord option is far and wide the most democratic option amongst the magic ones. Scales much better.

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I think it's better if the lights are able to do it even if we have the elves do it. We have already agreed to give them first refusal and us also having an option to do it stops them from gouging on the price.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

The Grey lords thing done by humans is also politically fraught. All of the Foundation ones are, the Hysh one is just obviously problematic.

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Yeah, it has to be done by rote instead of by understanding its principles, and some my dislike that. But it's not like human wizards aren't used to some unexplainable stuff in their magic, or simply "it just works". There is also, as indicated in the update, much less of a concern for the "this is bad juju" aspect as the one created and deployed by collegiate wizards. "We are just replicating elf magic" goes much, much more smoothly.

I don't see how that is anywhere near as fraught as, y'know, having one single college (1) responsible for a critical (2) and highly prestigious (3) job, when instead we could have most of every tradition in the Old World able to contribute.

There are at least 3 severe inflection points for causing trouble with the Hysh one. Your idea of forbidding them of using the technique they themselves invented just adds another.