Meanwhile, elves do almost no actual engineering for purposes of war - across the three elven factions in 8e, the only real non-magical war machines that they have are... what, Eagle Claw Bolt Throwers and Reaper Bolt Throwers? (Lothern Skycutters don't count, they only sometimes have compact bolt throwers, are classified as chariots and the archers themselves are only capable of staying afloat due to magic.)
I guess this also reflects elven mentality, in that they clearly prefer magical solutions over mundane ones where possible, prefer making pacts with (or enslaving) great animals, dragons and spirits, and in general seem to prefer not specializing in any one thing (and engineering very much is a specialist thing).
You could make a case that the Black Arks are in themselves engineered war machines. Sure, they include a magically summoned sea beast, but the challenges involved in constructing seagoing fortifications atop a living creature have got to be non-trivial.
You could make a case that the Black Arks are in themselves engineered war machines. Sure, they include a magically summoned sea beast, but the challenges involved in constructing seagoing fortifications atop a living creature have got to be non-trivial.
On the AV book, we need to consider the possibility that we roll badly enough when writing it that it's unintelligible the first time and that it needs rewriting once or more before publication so the readers can make sense of it.
You could make a case that the Black Arks are in themselves engineered war machines. Sure, they include a magically summoned sea beast, but the challenges involved in constructing seagoing fortifications atop a living creature have got to be non-trivial.
Personally I do not see a pressing need to dump the orbs immediately after completion. We do not have a big war on our doorstep and that's pretty much the only time the altars would be rolled out, and if there will be a big war in 6 months I think boney will let us reshuffle that decision.
The book is integral to the orbs reveal because as neat as the orbs are the colleges have already more then one set.
The part that makes our thing so incredible is the ability to reproduce them ad infinitum if we wanted.
In quest, Boney has WoG'd that "Black Ark" is a category that ranges from "A single tower chained on top of a not-particularly-well-enslaved sea beast" to "One of the original cities of Naggarythe torn free of ulthuan by ancient magics"
In quest, Boney has WoG'd that "Black Ark" is a category that ranges from "A single tower chained on top of a not-particularly-well-enslaved sea beast" to "One of the original cities of Naggarythe torn free of ulthuan by ancient magics"
This is a clarification in regards to the nature in which Black Arks are referred to in canon, in which it's somehow supposed to be broken sections of Nagarythe and irreplacable artifacts of immense power wielded by some of the most powerful Dark Elves, but sometimes it feels like there are innumerable numbers of them that are smaller and more inconsequential and yet they're still called Black Arks.
WHF has never been good with consistency, so Boney has to make some decisions at times.
What's the point of making the orbs of not to drop them on the colleges? If you're really concerned about BOOK think of them as a teaser trailer. Given no one else can get AV the book isn't that important anyways.
I think when people say Elves don't do engineering, they underestimate the amount of effort it takes to learn magic.
Elves have a divergent technology tree (which unfortunately isn't really fleshed out).
The parts of their tech tree that are recognizable and comparable (such as their architecture and shipbuilding) are all very advanced.
And from what we know, the elves approach to magic is in itself quite scientific. Their spellcraft is not held together with spit and duct tape, and winging it. It's a form of technology.
Their society leans into "zhuf logic" rather than conventional physics, because all elves have some degree of magical talent.
What's the point of making the orbs of not to drop them on the colleges? If you're really concerned about BOOK think of them as a teaser trailer. Given no one else can get AV the book isn't that important anyways.
What's the point of making the orbs of not to drop them on the colleges? If you're really concerned about BOOK think of them as a teaser trailer. Given no one else can get AV the book isn't that important anyways.
I could see value in researching what kinds of things are made possible in a region of reality softened by the presence of various combinations of Orbs of Sorcery from every Winds.
For example, can you exploit the zhuf-logic applicable in some configurations to perform otherwise impossible processes that produce materials stable in ordinary reality that would be harder to produce by other means.
It's the kind of project Max, Johann, and Eike together might be good at studying if we swore them to secrecy and held onto the orbs for six months before revealing them.
but there would be a very justified suspicion that if they supply a Dwarf-made part to go in a hole in a machine that's somewhat understood by those that currently drive and maintain it, and do the same for a different hole in a second identical machine, and so on over twelve machines and done over again every time they break down, then that amounts to drip-feeding Dwarven steam technology to the Empire.
The Dwarves give primacy to the engineer, who will not allow their inventions to endanger any life but their own, which amounts to an extremely rigid bottleneck on prototyping and field tests.
[*] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts
-[*] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo
-[*] Waystone: Build a Waystone (ALL) (The Gambler)
-[*] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[*] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut with Panoramia
-[*] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Unnatural Shadow)
-[*] SERENITY: Aethyric Vitae Part 1
-[*] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[*] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[*] COIN: The Gambler
-[*] Eike Actions: Ghyran Nut study, Karaz Ankor network, KAU action
-[*] Eike Study: Infiltration and Tradecraft with the Hochlander
It is all well and good to declare that it is time to make a Waystone, but that determination is only the starting point for several subsequent decisions. Over the course of the Waystone Project you and the other contributors have come up with a number of ways to replicate the function of each individual piece of the Waystones, and now it's up to you to decide what the optimal combination of them would be. While there are easy answers for the variables of cost and difficulty, some difficulty arises when you have to choose between cheap and easy.
Even more difficulty arises when you have to account for how some components can only be made by some nations. Would it be better to have something that requires the cooperation of Elves, Dwarves, and humans to create, to give your peoples one more reason to seek peace with each other? Should you look for a design that can be built entirely by the Colleges to increase their influences? Would something buildable by those behind the ancient and proven defences of Tor Lithanel or the Dwarfholds of the Karaz Ankor be more desirable than something built by those behind city walls that have fallen multiple times through the centuries? That's something for you to decide.
---
At the very top of the Waystone is the capstone, the mechanism that draws in Winds from the area around it. In the Golden Age Waystones, this was made of the metal now known as Waystone Gold, an alloy of gold and a metal from the land of the Titans, far to the east. Something about the combination and the way it is cooled after being combined makes it attractive to all eight Winds, except for when it is actively absorbing one of them, at which point it becomes repellent to the other seven. But without a source of titan-metal, you must choose one of the three alternatives that the Project has prototyped.
The first is the Collegiate Fascis, your own invention, which involves eight rods bearing simple enchantments around a conductive core. While this has minimal material costs and could be replicated by just about any Wind-based enchanter, eight separate enchantments is a substantial amount of effort, and it was built under the assumption of a connection to the Waystone Network and will not function without it.
The second is the Stone Flower designed by the Grey Lords Elrithish and Seilph, consisting of a single simple enchantment on carved stone that absorbs and relays energies exactly as needed. The only problem is that it is a product of High Magic, and as such can only be made by a small number of highly skilled Mages from Laurelorn or Ulthuan.
Finally there is the Runic Inductor, Thorek's design incorporating two simple Runes, one of which he rediscovered. While very simple and cheap to make, it is also a very basic instrument, simply absorbing and transmitting energy without regard for the consequences of them intermingling. Most of the time the Winds' tendency to naturally repel each other would be sufficient to prevent the creation of Dhar, but when multiple Winds are present in large amounts and being absorbed by a Waystone incorporating this component, more of it would be transmitted downstream as Dhar than would be the case for the other two components.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost. Requires a connection to the Waystone network.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower Requires High Magic. Simple, negligible cost.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor Requires a Runesmith. Simple, negligible cost. Will result in more Dhar and less of the other Winds when large amounts of multiple Winds are present.
Reinforcing the attractive properties of the capstone is the Rune on the side of the Waystone. On the Golden Age Waystones this was the Rune for 'Waystone' in Eltharin carved by a Dwarven Runesmith, using both Anoqeyån resonances and Dwarven artifice to passively reinforce the intended purpose of the Waystone. This is one element where the Golden Age can be exactly replicated, though if the necessity of a Runesmith could be a problem, an alternate Rune could be devised to be carved by any Wizard. If even that would be a problem, the Rune itself carved by a mason would still have some effect.
The next portion of the Waystone is the storage mechanism, where Winds are kept before being relayed out. The necessity of this is a product of how Winds are relayed through the Waystone Network, where multiple Winds are put into a stable orbit around a small amount of Dhar, which is then subject to the pull of the Great Vortex, and so a single Wind cannot be sent until a second arrives to counterbalance it. A Waystone that doesn't use the Waystone Network would therefore not require a storage mechanism, which on top of the effort and money savings would result in a Waystone much less able to accumulate dangerous amounts of Dhar if disconnected or malfunctioning. It's also one that would have no stored magic for Wizards to take out of them for their own purposes, but as far as you know only the Jade Wizards have techniques to do so.
Failing that, you have a range of options at different levels of cost and effort required, based on the natural properties of various materials and optionally improved by enchantments or runic enhancements. Egrimm and Elrisse were quite exhaustive in their investigations and there are an uncountably large number of possible combinations, but you can broadly break the options down into a few price points with roughly correlated abilities to absorb magical energies. The greater the storage capacity, the greater an effect the Waystone will have during times of high magical saturation - the cheapest options might have no noticeable effect during a storm of magic and only return things to normality over time, while the dearer options might make an area more able to withstand the immediate effects of a storm of magic or a full Morrslieb.
Finally, the Grey Lords Elrithish and Hatalath have recreated the original enchantment of the Waystones, albeit in a monstrously ungainly form. While it is currently a barely-functioning mess, it is likely that cumulative iterations and improvements over the construction of dozens or hundreds of Waystones will make it a lot more manageable.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material No requirements. Trivial, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed Requires a Runesmith. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered Requires Von Tarnus or an Elven Archmage. Very difficult, low cost. Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers.
[ ] [STORAGE] None No requirements, no cost. Not compatible with leyline transmission.
Then there's the base of the Waystone, the mechanism that prepares and drops the magical energies into the leylines of the Waystone Network. This is not just technically difficult, but also legally and politically questionable as in the absence of natural Dhar, it is required to create some. There's a hair to be split about whether an enchantment that creates and takes advantage of the attractive properties of Dhar would be considered a 'sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic', but it's not the sturdiest of arguments and the Colleges would much rather not need to make it. For that reason, it might be preferable to unload that task onto someone else.
The Grey Lords Skathrai and Yngra have developed an enchantment that is not just within the capabilities of the lesser Mages of Laurelorn, but also many of the Colleges' own enchanters. It's a very elegant piece of magical engineering, all interweavings and crosshatchings that can be replicated without being understood, and you're not sure whether to credit that to them being helpful or a deliberate attempt at keeping their methods inscrutable.
Thorek commissioned the Engineers of Karak Hirn for a clockwork instrument that would incorporate a number of Wind-sensitive materials to fulfil the purpose of the foundation with mechanical action alone. While it's an undoubtedly tricky piece of work, it's one that can be done by any moderately-skilled engineer or, for that matter, a clockmaker, which are in higher supply and lesser demand than enchanters. The downside is that it is dependent on a mainspring to power it, and so either needs monthly rewinding or some sort of external power source like a vane or a millrace, making it either dependent on regular maintenance or vulnerable to damage by weather or deliberate sabotage.
Speaking of enchanters, Egrimm and Elrisse found enough components, cantrips, and theoretical writings in the Light Order's libraries that a purely human-sourced enchantment could be cobbled together. While the resultant enchantment would be simpler than that designed by the Grey Lords, it would also make the Colleges directly implicated in the creation of Dhar. It is also dependent on the properties of Hysh specifically, so it would rule out seven out of eight Collegiate enchanters.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork Required an engineer or clockmaker. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
Finally, there's the mechanism of transmission - how the energies gathered, stored, and arranged are pointed in the direction of Ulthuan and sent off to make their long journey there. There's two options here: either you connect it to the existing Waystone Network using the passphrase given to you by Prince Eltharion, or you use the method theorized by the Waystone Project: using the rivers of the Old World as the transmission method, intermingling them with the waters to be recovered downstream, or to be allowed to flow harmlessly into the endless oceans. Because while branches of the Waystone Network can be found throughout much of the world, it's pointedly absent in many parts of the world where it's needed, such as Sylvania and northern Kislev. The sticking point is the Dhar, which would be a bad idea to introduce to the drinking water of a continent, but several methods of sending it underneath the river instead have been put forward.
The Hedgewise method of achieving riverine transmission has been of quite a bit of utility already, as the prototype - a pouch of patterned river stones - has baffled every Elven Mage to encounter it. But while it performs the duty required of it, in exchange it requires the sacrifice of a salmon or trout once a week. Exactly how much of a hardship this would be to maintain varies based on where the Waystone might be located.
The Jade Order has supplied an alternate method, which would require either a member of their order or someone else skilled with Ghyran to create and would require more skill and effort than the Hedgewise alternative would, but does not come with a constant upkeep. There was also a feather-patterned astrolabe bearing an Eonir-made enchantment that performed the same riverine effect as the previous two methods, but it has since been returned to the vault it was originally fished out of and would be quite difficult to pry loose again.
There's also the possibility that Niedzwenka put forward - to negotiate with the river's dominant spirit for them to transport the energies for you, whether that be the Naiads of the wild, the River-Gods of the Empire, the more modest but also more malicious spirits of Kislev's wilds, the Melusines of Bretonnia, or even stranger and more mysterious beings from further afield. While the cost of making the Waystones able to accommodate such an arrangement is trivial, the cost that the spirits involved might extract are unknowable in advance.
Then there's the possibility of creating a Waystone that can interface with the Waystone Network and a river it is built atop. While this would compound the difficulty, a Waystone connected to the leylines that can fall back upon riverine transmission should they be cut off from the wider network would be an actual, tangible improvement upon the Waystones of the Golden Age, and would make for a very hardy foundation from which the most tainted and hostile lands of the continent could start to be reclaimed.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline Requires a speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantia. Simple, trivial cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise) Requires a Hedgewise. Simple, trivial cost, requires weekly maintenance. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade) Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit) Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine) Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.
Of these several hundred possible combinations, it falls to you to choose just one. It would, of course, be possible to create several different Waystone designs if you think it would be easier to make multiple Waystones to fit into the varying political and magical requirements of the continent and possibly beyond, but the necessity of making sure each of the components will work in harmony indefinitely means that each one would take just as much effort as this one will. In any case, the Waystone you design today will hopefully be dotting the landscape of the Old World for centuries to come.
- There will be a twenty-four hour moratorium, both to let you formulate plans and so I have a chance to wake up tomorrow and fix any mistakes I've made in tabulating results across a fair few turns. Voting will be in plan format.
- Please don't ask me to give you any values in hard currency. More cheaper is more better, and the numbers don't make human sense on the scale of continents anyway.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost. Requires a connection to the Waystone network.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower Requires High Magic. Simple, negligible cost.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor Requires a Runesmith. Simple, negligible cost. Will result in more Dhar and less of the other Winds when large amounts of multiple Winds are present.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material No requirements. Trivial, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed Requires a Runesmith. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered Requires Von Tarnus or an Elven Archmage. Very difficult, low cost. Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers.
[ ] [STORAGE] None No requirements, no cost. Not compatible with leyline transmission.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork Required an engineer or clockmaker. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline Requires a speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantia. Simple, trivial cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise) Requires a Hedgewise. Simple, trivial cost, requires weekly maintenance. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade) Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit) Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine) Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.
I think the problem is how much magic is involved in every aspect that the books try to convey about Elves. The sourcebooks are obsessed with representing only the most magical aspects of Elven society, so when we get information about Elven ships or architecture, it's usually all about all the elaborate spells and magical materials the elves end up using to craft powerful magic ships and buildings, and not about the way in which Elves have developed non-magical technology.
If all goes according to plan, this will produce a design that you can copy-paste across a continent. It doesn't necessarily have to be the only one you design, though.
I wonder if it might be worth making a high grade demonstrator model of Waystone to impress existing and potential stakeholders, while also making a later mass deployment model that's simpler but less fully featured.
Then there's the possibility of creating a Waystone that can interface with the Waystone Network and a river it is built atop. While this would compound the difficulty, a Waystone connected to the leylines that can fall back upon riverine transmission should they be cut off from the wider network would be an actual, tangible improvement upon the Waystones of the Golden Age, and would make for a very hardy foundation from which the most tainted and hostile lands of the continent could start to be reclaimed.
I wonder if it might be worth making a high grade demonstrator model of Waystone to impress existing and potential stakeholders, while also making a later mass deployment model that's simpler but less fully featured.
I'd personally go with something robust and affordable, when we present the thing to other people they will ask how much one costs, and when we answer "about 4 wolfships, or a moderately sized wizard tower" they will be annoyed
(Money not to scale)
I'd personally go with something robust and affordable, when we present the thing to other people they will ask how much one costs, and when we answer "about 4 wolfships, or a moderately sized wizard tower" they will be annoyed
(Money not to scale)
And then we say, "this is merely a prototype, as robustly made as we could make it in order to test the idea. The final product will be far cheaper and easier to make."
edit: A reminder of what the first MRI machine looked like
I feel like we should make a bunch of alternative Waystone models later on that basically make it so that any one group getting wiped out doesn't mean Waystones are no longer able to be made again--just in case. Not as the main or theoretically best Waystone model, but as an extra form of security.
And then we say, "this is merely a prototype, as robustly made as we could make it in order to test the idea. The final product will be far cheaper and easier to make."
And then they go "then why didn't you do that from the beginning?" It's also another action you will need to wrangle out of the thread.
Generally I would go for a realistic waystone which one can already just plonk down without ruining the wallet. Because if that doesn't work we got problems.
I'd be willing to aim for over-engineering the first time, and then aiming for an "actual" production model pushed as cheap and easy as we can manage in a followup action.
Seeing where the pain and failure points are should hopefully make the refined version better.
