Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[LightLan]

[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Requires High Magic. Simple, negligible cost.

[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
Requires a Dwarven Runesmith. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)
Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.
Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.


This would be my favorite.

 

[Boney]

This gives us the best scalability to performance to long term gain. Am I missing something?

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If you pick one set of criteria to be the only one that success may be measured by, then yes, the decision becomes rather straightforward.

For Leyline transmission, when you connect one of the 'new' waystones up to the network, are you able to then connect to that waystone? As in, will this slowly expand the network, or only allow a more effective catch in the local area?

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Yes.

@Boney What limitations does the whole "password" thing impose on any Kislev new Waystones? I'm guessing it cannot be used there, so would that mean that the Layline transmission method wouldn't work in Kislev because of it?

Or, for the capstone: for Collegiate Fascis it says: Requires a connection to the Waystone network.
-Does that mean a Waystone made with that method cannot be used in Kislev at all? (Since it does not connect to the rest of the Waystone network, just it's own, little one)

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If you assume that your understanding of the matter is complete and accurate, then you would be correct.

 

[Alratan]

I propose this for both immediate mass deployment in Kislev and it's nice collaborative nature. It's very cheap at the cost of requiring two kinds of maintenance, but disciplined manpower feels like a requirement Kislev will gladly accept. It's also very easy at the cost of requiring a lot of different expertise, but that again feels like a welcome downside.

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The problem is that Kislev is a hostile place and, worse, a lot of the parts of Kislev we want to cover with Waystones is populated by nomads rather than by a settled population who can live permanently next to a Waystone and feed it fish. A Waystone in northern Kislev may well not see a person between the autumn and spring equinoxes as the nomads move their herds south to over-winter in warmer climes.

 

[Sinsystems]

Okay so we need to balance several factors here:

1. Difficulty of making the waystone.

2. Effectiveness of the components.

3. Maintenance costs/sabotage resistance.

4. Political connections and other factors.

 

[Shard]

I think we should try to make the waystone involve everyone in the project if possible.

 

[Alratan]

Okay so we need to balance several factors here:

1. Difficulty of making the waystone.

2. Effectiveness of the components.

3. Maintenance costs/sabotage resistance.

4. Political connections and other factors.

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I'd add difficulty of deploying the Waystone. The Hedgewise and Jade College riverine options both require, as I understand it, one of those specific specialists to be present on the ground when the Waystone is set up to perform the required ritual. For something that needs to be deployed internationally on a large scale, that's an issue, potentially a big one.

Edit; This is wrong. The difference is that the Hedgewise and Jade methods need a tunnel to be dug under the river to install the menhir/pile of rocks to segregate it from contaminating the river, which is a lot more work than reqired for the spirit approach

 

[DocMatoi]

I think the transmission method is a no brainer: both(jade). Having a failsafe in a demonstrably dangerous environment is critical, and the hedgewose maintenance requirement, at scale, is problematic for a long term a viewpoint. Though I guess the implementation does give the hedgewise a level of protection from imperial persecution, which is good

Other thoughts: components that require one kind of college caster are basically a non-issue in my eyes. That is not a bottleneck I foresee being an actual problem, in the short or long term

 

[Romv]

Is there a way to connect non-riverine Waystones to riverine Waystones? Or are riverine Waystones effectively a 'network' of at most one Waystone, only capturing magic in a limited radius around the river?
If we make Waystones with both transmission methods and connect them to the larger network, presumably those connections would remain even if cut off from the Vortex, and these smaller networks would, if cut off, start dumping their magic into the rivers.

(Okay, this is very confusing, but I can't find another way of phrasing it. Sorry.)

 

[Copperscale]

I think the problem is how much magic is involved in every aspect that the books try to convey about Elves. The sourcebooks are obsessed with representing only the most magical aspects of Elven society, so when we get information about Elven ships or architecture, it's usually all about all the elaborate spells and magical materials the elves end up using to craft powerful magic ships and buildings, and not about the way in which Elves have developed non-magical technology.

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We've seen the Eonir use magical forestry to tame Laurelorn as part of their "tech tree"

Ulthuan's tech tree is (probably) similar. All that would be needed to make "magical materials" more impressive is to not make the assumption that those materials are naturally occuring.

We know from their ability to make Waystone capstones that they have magical metallurgical techniques to turn Titan metal (presumably nonmagical) into Magically absorbent material. Dwarfs aren't able to forge Ithilmar because Elven metallurgy is equally advanced, but doesn't follow conventional paths.

With some extrapolation: Elves terraformed Ulthuan over the millennia into a plentiful paradise rife with magical useful materials.

The Lothern skycutter is made of lighter than air wood. It becomes a lot more impressive when the tree with wood lighter than air exist because the elves made it. The same goes for the unbreakable lances made from the trees of the eternal grove. Or the starwood that is used to create the Dragonships.

The white tower of Hoeth is a mile high. That's pretty dang fantastic for a race not known for their stonework...

... yes, I love alternate tech paths

 

[Pyran]

If you pick one set of criteria to be the only one that success may be measured by, then yes, the decision becomes rather straightforward.



Yes.



If you assume that your understanding of the matter is complete and accurate, then you would be correct.

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Could we just ask the Ice Witches if Leyline-based Transmission would work for Kislev? Not any detailed questions about how their sub-network works just a yes or no on whether Leylines work for them. After all, presumably, they would want us to make a Waystone model that they can use and I don't think they'd lose much by answering the question.

 

[Ergosum]

This is our proof of concept, so it should be the easiest/simplest one we can build, disregarding political issues and experimentality. My preference would be something like this:

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Less Dhar than runic, and doesn't require connection to the Network
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
They're the experts with Runes, so let them do it. We know that they used secret techniques to improve the effect on the original Waystones; let's give them the chance to do as their ancestors did.
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
This is probably the colleges' expertise. Material and Runed are probably very similar in effectiveness, though, so this is IMO the least clear cut decision.
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Simple, doesn't need manteinance (unlike clockwork), can be done by most colleges' enchanters as well, and is presumably less legally dodgy than the Light one.
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
The other options could be better in some situations, and we should really take a look at Both sometime in the future for incorporation into a hypothetical Waystone 2.0, but this is the probably easiest approach right now.

We can go back in the following turns and make more specialized Waystones, like one with Riverine or Both as transmission method, or 'just-in-case' designs fit for each of the polities involved (like Runic Inductor-Dwarven-Runed-Clockwork for the Karaz Ankor, or Stone Flower-Wizard-Enchanted-Grey Lord for Ulthuan/Laurelorn, or Collegiate Fascis-Wizard-Enchanted-Collegiate for the Empire), and maybe a 'spam' design easier to be mass produced like Runic Inductor-Carved-Material-Clockwork. But for now, a more general design is probably our best bet. It also has the political benefit of needing both elves, dwarves and humans to cooperate.


Edit: adding two variants with material/runed storage:
[ ] Plan Keep It Simple, with Material
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple, with more Runes
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Runic
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

 

[SaltyWaffles]

If all goes according to plan, this will produce a design that you can copy-paste across a continent. It doesn't necessarily have to be the only one you design, though.

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This honestly seems like a weird approach to take. There are a number of different factors that make different waystone designs far more suitable to different locations.

For example, you'd rather not have a Waystone design that is really expensive to make if it's in a location that is far more difficult to properly defend and secure. Similarly, having way more capable waystones makes more sense if they're being placed in locations that are strategically vital or extremely well defended, like Karaks or nexuses.

And stuff like the original enchantment for the waystones being fiendishly difficult and expensive now but being likely to improve iteratively as it gets refined means that we don't actually know how difficult or costly it will be, or when the difficulty/costs will go down.

And lastly, the methods we've discovered seem like ones we'll want to keep well-documented and secure so that if something happens at some point to any one of the parties involved (or if the Grey Lords have to deal with a crisis and aren't available to perform their part, or what have you), the ability to recreate Waystones isn't lost or indefinitely delayed.

That being said, I agree that there is still a great value to be had in having a first design that is well-suited to being mass produced and spread around the continent as proof that the Waystone Project is not only a big success, but that it is worth continued investment by all parties. For example, designing a particularly robust/safe/capable waystone for northern Kislev, because it is sorely needed but must also deal with the very real risk of it being vulnerable to a Chaos incursion (and thus needs to be of little use to to them or be able to be destroyed reliably and safely).

 

[Admiral Kol]

Is there a way to connect non-riverine Waystones to riverine Waystones? Or are riverine Waystones effectively a 'network' of at most one Waystone, only capturing magic in a limited radius around the river?
If we make Waystones with both transmission methods and connect them to the larger network, presumably those connections would remain even if cut off from the Vortex, and these smaller networks would, if cut off, start dumping their magic into the rivers.

(Okay, this is very confusing, but I can't find another way of phrasing it. Sorry.)

Click to shrink...

Unless you choose both, they won't connect. You also need a functional leyline waystone at the end of the river otherwise all that magic just builds up. Most rivers currently accessible have waystones at the end of them.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

The problem is that Kislev is a hostile place and, worse, a lot of the parts of Kislev we want to cover with Waystones is populated by nomads rather than by a settled population who can live permanently next to a Waystone and feed it fish. A Waystone in northern Kislev may well not see a person between the autumn and spring equinoxes as the nomads move their herds south to over-winter in warmer climes.

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It's not a perfect match for generic nomadism, but I doubt it's something that can't be adapted to if stakes are this high. Like, we might get a bunch of cool government-sanctioned cowtroutboys out of the deal.

 

[Genderite]

For both do we know if that very difficult is for us designing it now or the difficulty for the people on the ground making it, because that's a bit of a concern if it makes the rollout much more difficult.

 

[Illusion of Eris]

I just want the bag of rocks
I'm good with most everything else, I just want to fuck with people more. The bag of rocks you slap with a fish will never not be the greatest achievement of all humanity.

 

[Haerdalas]

My thoughts are as follows:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost. Requires a connection to the Waystone network.

This is functional, low cost, and accessible to basically any faction except the dwarves (who have allies who can do it). Stone Flower needs High Magic which is far trickier to source in large amounts, Runic causes unneccessary amounts of Dhar.
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
Requires a Dwarven Runesmith. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
Requires a magic-user. Simple, low cost.

Either of these works for me. Both are fairly easy to spam out across the continent. Wizard is more easily accessed by those far from the Karaz Ankor, but Dwarven gives buy in to the dwarves and its not like "is a runesmith" is *that* rare. Its more common than, say, high magic.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material
No requirements. Trivial, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
Requires a Runesmith. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.

I dont think its worth the extra cost/effort for the reverse engineered method. Elven Archmages are not common and thus that would greatly limit scalability across the Old World. Having no storage at all is a very bad idea given connecting to the leyline transmission is so incredibly useful. I dont really mind which of the others is chosen, though I'd probably go for moderate cost in most places, and I'd be more inclined towards Runic if there are no other dwarven components to give them buy in, and Enchanted if dwarves already have their buy in.

[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.

This seems like a no-brainer to me. Its very widely accessible, isnt restricted to high magic or a single path or anything, and *mostly* sidesteps the political/legal issues with Dhar. The clockwork is impressive but I really dont think we want these Waystones to have upkeep needed on a monthly basis. Ideally we could forget about a Waystone and still have it working centuries from now.

[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.

This makes our Waystones far less vulnerable to several really bad failure conditions. If the forces of chaos destroy all the waystones connecting the empire to Ulthuan by leyline, our Waystones could still function on a backup system. Redundancy is *very important* when dealing with things as critical as this. The Hedgewise method, as much as I love the bag of rocks, isnt the best because it needs upkeep - though I suppose if its just a backup system its not *as* crucial to lack upkeep... the spirit method would also work but I think "Jade Wizard" is easier to access/scale across the continent than "Hag Witch capable of negotiating with riverine spirits", and there is also the unpredictability of exactly what the spirits would demand for this service.

Overall, this setup leads to a moderate to low cost, a fairly high difficulty to make pretty much entirely due to the Transmission (both), which is still not THAT difficult, and is something that can be made by any group that involves the dwarves and wind mages that includes at least some Jade mages. With non-dwarf Runes, it can be done by anyone with Jade wizards, which is to say basically the whole civilised world except dwarves.

 

[Admiral Kol]

This is our proof of concept, so it should be the easiest/simplest one we can build, disregarding political issues and experimentality. My preference would be something like this:

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Less Dhar than runic, and doesn't require connection to the Network
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
They're the experts with Runes, so let them do it. We know that they used secret techniques to improve the effect on the original Waystones; let's give them the chance to do as their ancestors did.
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
This is probably the colleges' expertise. Material and Runed are probably very similar in effectiveness, though, so this is IMO the least clear cut decision.
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Simple, doesn't need manteinance (unlike clockwork), can be done by most colleges' enchanters as well, and is presumably less legally dodgy than the Light one.
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
The other options could be better in some situations, and we should really take a look at Both sometime in the future for incorporation into a hypothetical Waystone 2.0, but this is the probably easiest approach right now.

We can go back in the following turns and make more specialized Waystones, like one with Riverine or Both as transmission method, or 'just-in-case' designs fit for each of the polities involved (like Runic Inductor-Dwarven-Runed-Clockwork for the Karaz Ankor, or Stone Flower-Wizard-Enchanted-Grey Lord for Ulthuan/Laurelorn, or Collegiate Fascis-Wizard-Enchanted-Collegiate for the Empire), and maybe a 'spam' design easier to be mass produced like Runic Inductor-Carved-Material-Clockwork. But for now, a more general design is probably our best bet. It also has the benefit of needing both elves, dwarves and humans too.

Click to shrink...

I'd do runed storage as well, and probably moderate material, although not certain about that (expensive would be far more effective). I trust runes to last longer than any enchantment considering existing examples (and the creators).

 

[DocMatoi]

Is there a way to connect non-riverine Waystones to riverine Waystones? Or are riverine Waystones effectively a 'network' of at most one Waystone, only capturing magic in a limited radius around the river?
If we make Waystones with both transmission methods and connect them to the larger network, presumably those connections would remain even if cut off from the Vortex, and these smaller networks would, if cut off, start dumping their magic into the rivers.

(Okay, this is very confusing, but I can't find another way of phrasing it. Sorry.)

Click to shrink...

You're asking if normal waystones can use riverstones as an alternate dump site and thus failsafe whole regions? I don't see any reason why not

 

[Boney]

Is there a way to connect non-riverine Waystones to riverine Waystones? Or are riverine Waystones effectively a 'network' of at most one Waystone, only capturing magic in a limited radius around the river?
If we make Waystones with both transmission methods and connect them to the larger network, presumably those connections would remain even if cut off from the Vortex, and these smaller networks would, if cut off, start dumping their magic into the rivers.

(Okay, this is very confusing, but I can't find another way of phrasing it. Sorry.)

Click to shrink...

A riverine-only Waystone can be supplemented by tributaries, but you'd need to develop a new transmission method to connect it to other Waystones. You could build them along the entire length of a river, though.

Could we just ask the Ice Witches if Leyline-based Transmission would work for Kislev? Not any detailed questions about how their sub-network works just a yes or no on whether Leylines work for them. After all, presumably, they would want us to make a Waystone model that they can use and I don't think they'd lose much by answering the question.

Click to shrink...

You did and they shrugged. They probably wouldn't be here if they still had the level of understanding that completely rebuilt the Waystone network within Kislev.

This honestly seems like a weird approach to take. There are a number of different factors that make different waystone designs far more suitable to different locations.

For example, you'd rather not have a Waystone design that is really expensive to make if it's in a location that is far more difficult to properly defend and secure. Similarly, having way more capable waystones makes more sense if they're being placed in locations that are strategically vital or extremely well defended, like Karaks or nexuses.

And stuff like the original enchantment for the waystones being fiendishly difficult and expensive now but being likely to improve iteratively as it gets refined means that we don't actually know how difficult or costly it will be, or when the difficulty/costs will go down.

And lastly, the methods we've discovered seem like ones we'll want to keep well-documented and secure so that if something happens at some point to any one of the parties involved (or if the Grey Lords have to deal with a crisis and aren't available to perform their part, or what have you), the ability to recreate Waystones isn't lost or indefinitely delayed.

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I don't understand how what I said precludes any of that.

 

[Romv]

A riverine-only Waystone can be supplemented by tributaries, but you'd need to develop a new transmission method to connect it to other Waystones. You could build them along the entire length of a river, though.

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That's what I thought.
Would the idea of connected Waystones with both transmission systems switching over to dumping magic in the rivers if they become disconnected from the Vortex be correct?

 

[Valmond]

For my preference, i would prefera model that:
1. Minimizes dhar.
2. Minimizes specific group involvement requirements.
If we have to use elves (because high magic), that is a major bottle neck.
Everything that requires a runesmith is another bottle neck.
Wind casters are most widely available, as are clockmakers.

[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost. Requires a connection to the Waystone network.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Requires High Magic. Simple, negligible cost.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
Requires a Runesmith. Simple, negligible cost. Will result in more Dhar and less of the other Winds when large amounts of multiple Winds are present.
Runic inductor is, potentially an issue, so i would prefer collegiate fascis, but a i am not fully against inductor either.

[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
Requires a Dwarven Runesmith. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
Requires a magic-user. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [RUNE] Carved
Requires a mason. Trivial, negligible cost.
Maybe go dawi for the presentation model, with full knowledge it can be replaced with a lesser version if needed.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material
No requirements. Trivial, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
Requires a Runesmith. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
Requires Von Tarnus or an Elven Archmage. Very difficult, low cost. Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers.
[ ] [STORAGE] None
No requirements, no cost. Not compatible with leyline transmission.
Material would be my preference, Enchanted and Runed secondary options.



[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
Required an engineer or clockmaker. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
Tempted to go clockwork just for the no dhar. But it's not really an option anywhere outside of population centers, also probably easier to break, be it on purpose or accident.
So probably Grey lord for now, to avoid having colleges touch the bad magic.


[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Requires a speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantia. Simple, trivial cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
Requires a Hedgewise. Simple, trivial cost, requires weekly maintenance. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)
Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.

This is the hardest decision. All have ups and downs, largely depending on where you are putting one down.
Spirit would probably work best for Kislev, Jade and Leyline for Empire, Laurelorn would probably do fine with any but Hedgewise.
And Hedgewise would be useful in specific parts of the empire, with added bonus for potential legitimacy for hedgefolk, and would baffle all the elves (always a bonus).

 

[Boney]

That's what I thought.
Would the idea of connected Waystones with both transmission systems switching over to dumping magic in the rivers if they become disconnected from the Vortex be correct?

Click to shrink...

Yes.

 

[Ergosum]

I'd do runed storage as well, and probably moderate material, although not certain about that (expensive would be far more effective). I trust runes to last longer than any enchantment considering existing examples (and the creators).

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I've added two variants with Material/Runic storage. As I mentioned, I expect them to be similar in terms of effectiveness (depending on the specific methods used) so I don't particularly prefer one over another

 

[DragonParadox]

This is our proof of concept, so it should be the easiest/simplest one we can build, disregarding political issues and experimentality. My preference would be something like this:

[ ] Plan Keep It Simple
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Less Dhar than runic, and doesn't require connection to the Network
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
They're the experts with Runes, so let them do it. We know that they used secret techniques to improve the effect on the original Waystones; let's give them the chance to do as their ancestors did.
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
This is probably the colleges' expertise. Material and Runed are probably very similar in effectiveness, though, so this is IMO the least clear cut decision.
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Simple, doesn't need manteinance (unlike clockwork), can be done by most colleges' enchanters as well, and is presumably less legally dodgy than the Light one.
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
The other options could be better in some situations, and we should really take a look at Both sometime in the future for incorporation into a hypothetical Waystone 2.0, but this is the probably easiest approach right now.

We can go back in the following turns and make more specialized Waystones, like one with Riverine or Both as transmission method, or 'just-in-case' designs fit for each of the polities involved (like Runic Inductor-Dwarven-Runed-Clockwork for the Karaz Ankor, or Stone Flower-Wizard-Enchanted-Grey Lord for Ulthuan/Laurelorn, or Collegiate Fascis-Wizard-Enchanted-Collegiate for the Empire), and maybe a 'spam' design easier to be mass produced like Runic Inductor-Carved-Material-Clockwork. But for now, a more general design is probably our best bet. It also has the political benefit of needing both elves, dwarves and humans to cooperate.

Click to shrink...

I like this and wold like to also add another argument for it, we do not know if this thing will work so it makes sense to cleave as closely to what we know does work for our first attempt.