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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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DocMatoi said:
The more designs there are, the wider spread the knowledge of creating "A Waystone" will be. The wider spread the knowledge is, the less likely it is to be lost again.
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Something to add to this. It's entirely possible to make a College-only Waystone, a Grey Lord-only Waystone, and a Dwarven-only Waystone. It's also completely politically non-viable to do any one of these three designs. But if we test multiple kinds of components in different designs, a 'faction'-only design will be much easier to create in the future if necessary. Ensuring that the knowledge of how to make some kind of Waystone is far harder to completely lose. (Hopefully, at the same time we'll be able to demonstrate that with-our-powers-combined makes superior Waystones. That's not a given, mind, but I'm willing to bet that's how it'll turn out.)
 
I actually think it's symbolically very powerful if the first Waystone we present, which is the one that will get the most attention, is like the ancient ones but better. That's a strong message of hope and progress, that by working together the civilized realms can't just recover the wonders of the past, but exceed them.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Seven is definitely too many, but coming up with a couple of different designs for different areas or situations still seems reasonable...especially if the version we come up with this time doesn't go combined Riverine/Leyline.
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At most I'd accept two, one basic bitch ass waystone that we can cheaply and quickly bolt down in semi safe areas, and one meant for adverse areas where control is tenuous. More are really not needed.
 
Alratan said:
I actually think it's symbolically very powerful if the first Waystone we present, which is the one that will get the most attention, is like the ancient ones but better. That's a strong message of hope and progress, that by working together the civilized realms can't just recover the wonders of the past, but exceed them.
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If we want to do Bretonia next turn with the Protector we need a working Waystone, not an overambitious attempt at one that turned out not to work. The dual one is more likely not to work since it adds complexity.
 
Make a basic but durable waystone that works (without maintenance), this will cover about 90% of the cases we need it for and the last 10% we probably will need an army anyway.
 
I think we should go for the most complicated and resilient waystone design with both trassmission methods, we have put the everyone to work together on this waystone, including Ranald, we are the best position to manage a difficult design and if we want a simpler with a specific focus later we can manage with less effort.


Also Boney could you elaborate how the storage methods compare qualitatively ? I am assuming the wind and runed methods are mostly equivalent for a certain price point, and the Reverse-engineered has more capacity that we could make otherwise but I am uncertain how much better that is and how the improve ones compare to just material.
 
Boney said:
In any case, the Waystone you design today will hopefully be dotting the landscape of the Old World for centuries to come.
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In my eyes, the question is "do we make the cheap one now and the complex one later, or the complex one now and the cheap one later?". Which ever one we do first will be seen as the "default" waystone, and later ones will be seen as iterations of it—so what do we want to prioritise?

Pros and cons for both approaches.

Cheap Now (Riverine):
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Carved
[ ] [STORAGE] None
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
Easy to make and deploy, we can start immediately. Can be deployed in areas with rivers but no waystones, like Sylvania or Troll Country. If the project ends or Mathilde dies or whatever, then the rest of the project members can simply copy-paste it across the continent cheaply. Due to the river leyline, no storage component is needed.

Downsides is that it requires upkeep, and the Runic Inductor is unstable and makes Dhar. Requires Hedgewise, Lightwizards, and a Runesmith—so potential bottlenecking due to a lack of speclists. The Light Wizards would also be messing with Dhar, which is politically inconvenient.

Cheap Now (Leyline):
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Carved
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap] Material
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

Same as above, but with no upkeep or Hedgewise involvement. May have difficulty being deployed in Sylvania etc., and has a slightly increased cost due to the storage component. Going for cheap materials is... probably not a good idea, they are going to have to withstand a lot of energy being pumped into them over a very long period of time.

Complex now:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

Able to cover multiple uses (both transmission methods), more durable, and an equal or outright superior product to the original. Getting started early on the Reverse-Engineered storage mechanism would mean we simplify it faster—this waystone gets easier to make the more we make of them.

Downsides is the expense and the possibility of being bottlenecked by a lack of skilled craftsmen—which is the exact problem Eltharion has right now, and why he came to the Empire in the first place. It requires Runesmiths, Jade Wizards, and High Magic to construct.

Plan Something in-between?
Plan Middle of the Road
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)

A mid-difficulty waystone that draws exclusively on Wind Magic—every component can be made by a human or elven wizard. This definitely favours the Colleges and House Tindomiel. Cost and Complexity is middling, but it's perhaps not using the strongest option in each category.

Something to consider for the capstone is which method will have the biggest bottleneck—the moderately complicated Collegiate Fascis, which requires 8 different enchanters, or the High Magic Stone Flower, which needs a rare and valuable High Mage to make? I'm honestly unsure on this point. It can probably be knocked down to just using leyline transmission, but I don't see the point when we're making sacrifices on the rune and the storage mechanism anyway.

Political Victory
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Hedgewise)

This one pulls the best components from each faction that contributed, forcing political unity. Requires High Magic, a Runesmith, and a Hedgewise, as well as normal Wind users to build. Has an upkeep, but isn't actually that hard to deploy, outside of the storage mechanism.

Khazukan Kazakit-ha!
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

Do I need to explain this one? the only part the dwarves can't replicate is the leyline—and we have the option to research a physical leyline in the future, so that can be substituted out eventually.
 
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Zaratustra said:
Also Boney could you elaborate how the storage methods compare qualitatively ? I am assuming the wind and runed methods are mostly equivalent for a certain price point, and the Reverse-engineered has more capacity that we could make otherwise but I am uncertain how much better that is and how the improve ones compare to just material.
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No unit of measurement exists for this. More is more.
 
I'm extremely biased towards no upkeep. Other options have pros and cons, but requiring regular maintenance is the absolute no from me.
 
DragonParadox said:
If we want to do Bretonia next turn with the Protector we need a working Waystone, not an overambitious attempt at one that turned out not to work.
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My proposal was this:

[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)

That is:

FunctionNameRequiresDifficultyCostNotes
CapstoneStone FlowerHigh MagicSimpleNegligible
RuneDwarvenDwarven RunesmithSimpleLow
StorageReverse-engineeredVon Tarnus or an Elven ArchmageVeryLowDifficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers
FoundationGrey LordWind-based WizardModerateLow
Transmission (Both)n/an/aVeryModerate
Transmission (Waystone)LeylineA speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantian/an/a
Transmission (Riverine)SpiritNegotiation with the river's spiritn/an/a

It has two simple, one moderate, and two very difficult components. That is indeed a more challenging option, but I think the difficulty of the Storage option is managed because the people who would be building that section of the prototype for us are members of the Grey Lords who have done so successfully before.

The fact that the difficulty of the Storage component would trend down over time also incentivises making this the initial design so there's more time to work the bugs out.

Side thought about storage mechanisms, all the material options probably have the same issue (if smaller) as the Loralim, as making a Waystone out of valuable material makes it much more attractive to break them open and steal the insides to resell. Quite possible back to the Project after laundering the origin.
 
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The problem I see with the stones of the hedgewise is that for the use case we identified for river transmission (now that normal leylines are an option) they are just the worst option.
The rivers are best for areas under the most pressure where the network is not established or was destroyed. That's currently Sylvania and kislev northern wastes... Having someone there do a fish ritual every week can be a big ask if not a impossibility.
 
Tobtorp said:
The problem I see with the stones of the hedgewise is that for the use case we identified for river transmission (now that normal leylines are an option) they are just the worst option.
The rivers are best for areas under the most pressure where the network is not established or was destroyed. That's currently Sylvania and kislev northern wastes... Having someone there do a fish ritual every week can be a big ask if not a impossibility.
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It can be done by cults as part of their rituals—I'm sure bogpriests wouldn't mind having a few of their fellows employed to walk up and down a river. It could also be done by River Wardens and Road Wardens who could include it in their patrols, and most locals would probably be fishing nearby anyway.

And I actually see the failure state as a sort of benefit. If people don't do the ritual, then the river will get messed up, and that will be noticed downstream. Send a River Warden to investigate, and oh, it turns out that village got eaten by beastmen, and now we need to rally the state troops. The Empire already uses the smaller, outlying villages as an early warning system, this would just be adding an extra layer to that.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It can be done by cults as part of their rituals—I'm sure bogpriests wouldn't mind having a few of their fellows employed to walk up and down a river. It could also be done by River Wardens and Road Wardens who could include it in their patrols, and most locals would probably be fishing nearby anyway.

And I actually see the failure state as a sort of benefit. If people don't do the ritual, then the river will get messed up, and that will be noticed downstream. Send a River Warden to investigate, and oh, it turns out that village got eaten by beastmen, and now we need to rally the state troops. The Empire already uses the smaller, outlying villages as an early warning system, this would just be adding an extra layer to that.
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That's true in Sylvania, much, much less so in Kislev. Even without the issue of not having a sedentary population over much of the territory, the northern rivers might well freeze over for months in the winter making fishing impossible.

The other issue with the Hedgewise riverine approach is that it's just significantly less good at clearing Dhar down than the other options. In places like Sylvania that may matter a lot.
 
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reignonyrparade said:
People very much do live in Sylvania, feels like you're overstating things there.
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Sure, Sylvania is now somewhat safe, is it safe enough to send someone out every week to kill a fish at the riverbank? In winter? During a storm of magic? During a siege? During any sort of attack?the stones need to be maintained under any circumstances. Hey maybe even then... But you know what's even more safe and can't be disrupted by someone kicking over a pile of stones? A fuck off Menhir at the bottom of the river that no one needs to look after.
Hell even the spirit solution is less prone to being disrupted because you would need to get the river spirit to stop their part of whatever bargain is struck.
 
Actually, a question for @Boney, I may have missed it in the update, but when the options talk about difficulty, do they mean the difficulty to integrate the existing component into the first prototype this turn as well as the difficulty of mass production?

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I haven't seen any mention that it's less good at moving Dhar than the other options, only that it needs upkeep to maintain. I thought it was just as effective.
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Based on this quote:

Boney said:
The Hedgewise contribution is a leather pouch full of river stones with various patterns of dots carved into them, to be piled up on the site and a salmon or trout killed atop the pile every week. Testing it is very simple: it is set up, and a sufficient amount of Dhar is created and allowed to settle into the end of the tunnel while you watch from a safe distance. Under normal circumstances, the Dhar would remain here indefinitely, possibly oozing a ways back out the tunnel, and would begin to noticeably fade away into the stone over the course of years to decades. But here and now, with slowness that certainly feels like years to decades but is no more than a couple of hours, the Dhar is pulled up against and eventually into one of the walls. If all has gone according to plan, it is destined to make an inexorably slow journey downstream until it reaches the stone below the Black Gulf, at which point it will... well, you're not sure. Hopefully fade away. It might seep back up and into the Gulf, adding one more drop to thousands of years of corruption the oceans have been called upon to absorb.

The Jade Order's showing, appropriately enough is a man-sized menhir that seems like it took more effort to move down here than carving the pattern of flowing lines that covers it, though probably not more than the enchantment within it. When the menhir is planted into the mud at the bottom of the tunnel, the first indication that it's working is the mud drying out as the water from it tries to obey the flow of the river above and pools against the tunnel wall. Dhar, when released, obeys the same inexorable pull and disappears much faster into the wall than previously.
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The Jade Order's enchantment, at least, pulls the Dhar away much faster than the Hedgewise's.
 
Regarding the manteinance issue, I'll just point at the current state of the Network to show why our Waystones should keep working even in the case of mass depopulation or societal collapse: because these things have happened in the past, and will almost certainly happen in the future, and we need the Network to keep working even then. If every time a Waagh! or a Chaos army or someone else invaded the Empire the affected region's Waystones stopped working properly, then the Empire would be in deep trouble (or, well, even deeper trouble than 'just' the waagh!/invasion itself). Secrets can be lost, traditions can be forgotten, people can be killed or displaced or forcibly recruited into the army. We need our Waystones to be able to survive all that.
 
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Alratan said:
The problem is that Kislev is a hostile place and, worse, a lot of the parts of Kislev we want to cover with Waystones is populated by nomads rather than by a settled population who can live permanently next to a Waystone and feed it fish. A Waystone in northern Kislev may well not see a person between the autumn and spring equinoxes as the nomads move their herds south to over-winter in warmer climes.
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On the other hand, the rivers are exactly where you'd expect to see a more settled population.

If the local Ungols stay local year-round, I think maintenance on the bag of rocks would be doable- Ungol Krugs are used to following whatever the Hag Witches say they should do even if it doesn't make sense to them.
 
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