Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I actually think it's symbolically very powerful if the first Waystone we present, which is the one that will get the most attention, is like the ancient ones but better. That's a strong message of hope and progress, that by working together the civilized realms can't just recover the wonders of the past, but exceed them.
[] Draft Plan Building A Better Future
-[] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

Maybe something like this? This is an attempt to create the highest quality Waystone we can manage. The only component I'm uncertain of is the [STORAGE]. The Reverse-engineered one is a mess, but this is an area Runes should be quite good at if not the best.
 
[] Draft Plan Building A Better Future
-[] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Runed
-[] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

Maybe something like this? This is an attempt to create the highest quality Waystone we can manage. The only component I'm uncertain of is the [STORAGE]. The Reverse-engineered one is a mess, but this is an area Runes should be quite good at if not the best.
I would replace the storage with Collage version* as well. Both to ensure politically Empire can't be cut out and we don't get overly reliant on Grey Lords but rest is good.
*[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the manteinance issue, I'll just point at the current state of the Network to show why our Waystones should keep working even in the case of mass depopulation or societal collapse: because these things have happened in the past, and will almost certainly happen in the future, and we need the Network to keep working even then. If every time a Waagh! or a Chaos army or someone else invaded the Empire the affected region's Waystones stopped working properly, then the Empire would be in deep trouble (or, well, even deeper trouble than 'just' the waagh!/invasion itself). Secrets can be lost, traditions can be forgotten, people can be killed or displaced or forcibly recruited into the army. We need our Waystones to be able to survive all that.
The current state of the network also shows that there us already something very similar to what you are describing covering most of the important bits of the world.

We don't need to think about eternity here. A cheap good-enough product will show tangible benefits within a generation and when someone interrupts it the region just slowly creeps back to how it was when only the ancient network existed. If you go for a cheaper network rather than a second set of masterpieces that can beggar a nation then it's also less of a tragedy if parts of it stop working in some centuries. They already repaid the investment they required.
 
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost. Requires a connection to the Waystone network.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
Requires High Magic. Simple, negligible cost.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
Requires a Runesmith. Simple, negligible cost. Will result in more Dhar and less of the other Winds when large amounts of multiple Winds are present.
I prefer the Fascis. There's plenty of available people to create it, it's not too difficult and it doesn't create too much Dhar.

[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
Requires a Dwarven Runesmith. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
Requires a magic-user. Simple, low cost.
[ ] [RUNE] Carved
Requires a mason. Trivial, negligible cost.
I'd like the wizard version, but having the dwarfs be necessary to build it will be better for diplomacy.

[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material
No requirements. Trivial, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
Requires a Runesmith. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
Requires Von Tarnus or an Elven Archmage. Very difficult, low cost. Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers.
[ ] [STORAGE] None
No requirements, no cost. Not compatible with leyline transmission.
I préfère the wizard version. It's a comprise between effective and availability.

[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
Required an engineer or clockmaker. Moderately difficult, low cost.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
The Grey Lord is better imo. The clockwork needs regular maintenance, and in places that need waystones the most it's difficult to do. And light wizard diminishes the number of people who can do it and would give too much influence to the light order.

[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Requires a speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantia. Simple, trivial cost.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
Requires a Hedgewise. Simple, trivial cost, requires weekly maintenance. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Jade)
Requires a Jade Wizard or Druid. Moderately difficult, low cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)
Requires negotiation with the river's spirit. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation. ? difficulty, ? cost. Reduces difficulty and cost of Foundation.
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
Requirements as per Riverine component. Very difficult, moderate cost.
The leyline version is easy and cheap, let's do that.

My proposition is as follows:

[ ] Plan: Compromises
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline


[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
It prevents 7/8th of spellcasters to contribute, and would give too much influence to one single College.

[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
Requires Von Tarnus or an Elven Archmage. Very difficult, low cost. Difficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers.
There's few Archmages and even less Gelts of Von Tarnus. Their time is by consequences very, very valuable. It means that nearly no humans can create it.
 
Last edited:
Okay, with that answer from Boney:
Could we have an elf cast the Hysh spell for the foundation? Specifically this one?

I have a plan. Specifically the V1 prototype plan. The idea behind this is a to make this as sure as possible to succeed, using some basic optimization.

Here, we are using the Stone Flower for the first attempt. In the future, we should likely be using the collegiate Fascsis, but for a prototype, I don't want to engage in cost cutting (yes, even though the stone flower is negligible cost, the high magic is effectively high cost).

I used a Dwarven Rune for the best possible guess, but it's worth experimenting with other possibilities.

Storage is going to be expensive, but not restrictive. I'm a little shaky on this, but the others seemed more restrictive for little gain. I think spending a turn talking with our new elven partner on the reverse engineering version could help though,
but that's for the future. For now, I've used a very expensive one as this is the very first new waystone. I put down another with cheap storage as well.

The Collegiate Foundation is the best by far, but the issue is us casting it. If we teach it to elves, that's completely dodged.

I want to use the original stuff as much as possible right now, so the Elven Leylines. Let's have as few chances to screw up as possible.

[ ] Plan Minimum Viable Product (expensive storage)
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Expensive Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[ ] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

[ ] Plan Minimum Viable Product (cheap storage)
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Cheap Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[ ] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
 
Last edited:
The current state of the network also shows that there us already something very similar to what you are describing covering most of the important bits of the world.

We don't need to think about eternity here. A cheap good-enough product will show tangible benefits within a generation and when someone interrupts it the region just slowly creeps back to how it was when only the ancient network existed. If you go for a cheaper network rather than a second set of masterpieces that can beggar a nation then it's also less of a tragedy if parts of it stop working in some centuries. They already repaid the investment they required.
I think we should build the best we can now and then create 3 more desings that every polity can build themselves in the future if they longterm co-operations doesn't pan out or gets interrupted.
 
General Thoughts:

I feel anything requiring frequent Maintenance (or Maintenance at all really) should be a last resort. The reason the old world remained inhabitable as much as it is at all is that the network kept running for millennia without proper oversight. We don't want something that lasts trough the next few years before priorities do shift again, we want something that can last us into another golden age. All these complaints thorek had about humans being idiots, or all possibilities for chaos to sabotage stuff are so much more relevant when there's active maintenance needed. Even some idiot witch hunter could suddenly become a big danger.
Stuff like that should be at most a temporary patch until someone gets around to do it properly, not a long term solution that's meant to outlast us.

The choice of rune is relatively unimportant. Id put it at whoever we have left, or whoever should not be left out. It impacts little else.

For the capstone I'm leaning towards stone flower if we have the high mages left over, but we may need them elsewhere. Its not much difference if we substitute it with the Collegiate one, though that makes it getting a backup to the rivers harder.

Foundation... the elven stuff may also be the best option, if we have the means. Probably go for the grey lord foundation, done by humans. Storage is more difficult, though maybe we should invest the effort in waystones (or presumably dedicated research actions) to get the difficulty on the storage enchantment lower, until the colleges can produce it properly. Rather avoid dipping into dhar creation as long as other options exist.
 
It prevents 7/8th of spellcasters to contribute, and would give too much influence to one single College.
We could instead have elves do this. First, this dodges giving one college too much influence. It also doesn't have the issue that casting High magic does, as it doesn't need an expert. Finally, it doesn't involve humans dealing with Dhar at all.

I agree with you about the Fascis, that's the better for mass production, but for the prototype I'd prefer the certainty of the stone flower, just as a proof of concept.
 
[ ] Plan Tripartite Waystone
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)


The idea to make best Waystone we can create without leaving any one polity out of the work. Ensure they co-operate. We can crate 3 more variation where every polity can create their own later. I do think gettin Transmission both would be useful but I think Thread is not interested so I left this at the Leyline.

@picklepikkl to add to the list.

Edited: Plan update for being same with another plan.
Edit 2: A different name is taken for the same plan.
 
Last edited:
I would replace the storage with Collage version* as well. Both to ensure politically Empire can't be cut out and we don't get overly reliant on Grey Lords but rest is good.
*[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
Requires a Wind-based Wizard. Simple, low/moderate/high cost.
I'm using Runed storage, which uses a Runesmith, not a Grey Lord. And I think magical energy storage is an area where Runecraft might have the qualitative edge. Also, my plan uses the Jade river transmission, requiring a Jade Magister to make.
My proposition is as follows:

[]Plan Compromise:
-
Your plan appears to have been lost in editing.
 
The current state of the network also shows that there us already something very similar to what you are describing covering most of the important bits of the world.

We don't need to think about eternity here. A cheap good-enough product will show tangible benefits within a generation and when someone interrupts it the region just slowly creeps back to how it was when only the ancient network existed. If you go for a cheaper network rather than a second set of masterpieces that can beggar a nation then it's also less of a tragedy if parts of it stop working in some centuries. They already repaid the investment they required.

I'm not talking about expensive masterpieces, there are alternatives that are just as cheap and efficient. The Jade leylines are more expensive than the Hedgewise ones but they're a lot more efficient, and their implementation could be limited to the places where the river spirit and regular leyline methods, also comparable to or better than the stones and fish, aren't available. And the Grey Lord foundation is as good as the clockwork one, and while wizards are less common than engineers there are still a lot of them in the Empire alone. It will cost us a little more effort now, but in the long term it will be far cheaper than having to rebuild them every time an area gets occupied by gribblies.
 
Here's my plan:

[ ] Plan: Compromises
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Moderate] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

I think any option that requires regular upkeep is a bad idea, even the salmon thing. Waystones need to work all the time, even if a Waaagh!!! or undead army or whatever rolls in and displaces people. Yeah, it could serve as a warning system, but what if that danger leave the pile of rock unatended for months or years? And what if, in a few centuries, people forget that they need to kill a fish on that rock?

edit:
We could instead have elves do this. First, this dodges giving one college too much influence. It also doesn't have the issue that casting High magic does, as it doesn't need an expert. Finally, it doesn't involve humans dealing with Dhar at all.

I agree with you about the Fascis, that's the better for mass production, but for the prototype I'd prefer the certainty of the stone flower, just as a proof of concept.
The problem with High magic is that there's very few people that can cast it, and so their hours is very expensive and valuable.

Your plan appears to have been lost in editing.
Thanks, but I knew :) I was on my phone when I wrote that post, and edited it correctly when I got on my computer.
 
Last edited:
I'd very much like both.
Yeah I noticed there was already a plan with only leyline but not with both on this combinations so updated.
[ ] Plan Tripartite Waystone
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

Edit:
To explain my plan Stone Flower is in the sweet spot of quality and avaibility. Not putting Dwarves on the Rune seem wrong to me and who knows Vlag might be involved in their creation even. Storage I think is a good place for Collage Enhancters to do the work. and Foundation Grey Lords since it can't be Collages legally with transmission Both being big selling point about this being better than Goldan Age Waystones and would be a great selling point to everybody.
Edit2: A different name is taken for the same plan.
 
Last edited:
[ ] Plan Tripartite Waystone
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade Riverine)

The idea to make best Waystone we can create without leaving any one polity out of the work. Ensure they co-operate. We can crate 3 more variation where every polity can create their own later.

I do think gettin Transmission both would be useful.
This one I like, this is a stone we can literally plop down everywhere we could think of.

Also I do like the dual usability of rivers and leylines because it is a fallback point.
 
The idea to make best Waystone we can create without leaving any one polity out of the work. Ensure they co-operate. We can crate 3 more variation where every polity can create their own later.
If you are looking for that, could I interest you in this instead?
[ ] Plan Minimum Viable Product (Fascis)
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Expensive Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[ ] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

This would ensure all three were needed, while swapping a moderate difficulty Foundation for a moderate difficulty capstone. But the moderate difficulty capstone is better as it isn't limited by high magic. It still forces everyone to cooperate though as the colleges aren't legally able to cast the foundation spell. (and do whatever you want for the Transmission)
 
If you are looking for that, could I interest you in this instead?
[ ] Plan Minimum Viable Product (Fascis)
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Expensive Material
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
--[ ] Cast by an elf (Boney approved)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline

This would ensure all three were needed, while swapping a moderate difficulty Foundation for a moderate difficulty capstone. But the moderate difficulty capstone is better as it isn't limited by high magic. It still forces everyone to cooperate though as the colleges aren't legally able to cast the foundation spell. (and do whatever you want for the Transmission)
I don't like Collagiate Facis. SO wrote my own plan saying "Ganbatte Mathilde" for the best product we can build.

Shit that might have been a better name for the plan. :p
 
Last edited:
I don't like Collagiate Facis. SO wrote my own plan saying "Ganbatte Mathilde" for the best product we can build.

Shit that might have been a better name for the plan. :p
That definitely would have been the better name! But why the issue with the colligiate fascis, if you are using leyline transmission or both?

Also, why the Grey Lord option, and not the elven cast of the Hysh Foundation? If you want to ensure elven participation but not make it expensive and requiring high magic, that's the way to go.
 
But why the issue with the colligiate fascis
I am not sure how that will react to Both Leyline option if there is no waystone left downsteam after it kicks to rivers from the absance of Leyline. I feel like there is a failure point in there somewhere so less reliable in my mind. I mean no point going for both if we are not taking full advantage of the extra reliablity. Plus I reseved that for Empire only Waysone I am planing for the future.
Also, why the Grey Lord option, and not the elven cast of the Hysh Foundation?
Because Grey Lord option can be copied by collages even if it is not understood at the moment which means if Grey Lords in the future stop supplying it Collages will know how to do it as well. Plus Hysh version is going no where and can be made later for pure Empire Waystone same as PanCollage fascis.
 
Last edited:
My proposal was this:

[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (specify which Riverine)
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Spirit)

That is:

FunctionNameRequiresDifficultyCostNotes
CapstoneStone FlowerHigh MagicSimpleNegligible
RuneDwarvenDwarven RunesmithSimpleLow
StorageReverse-engineeredVon Tarnus or an Elven ArchmageVeryLowDifficulty and requirements will reduce over time if built in large numbers
FoundationGrey LordWind-based WizardModerateLow
Transmission (Both)n/an/aVeryModerate
Transmission (Waystone)LeylineA speaker of Anoqeyån or Lingua Praestantian/an/a
Transmission (Riverine)SpiritNegotiation with the river's spiritn/an/a

It has two simple, one moderate, and two very difficult components. That is indeed a more challenging option, but I think the difficulty of the Storage option is managed because the people who would be building that section of the prototype for us are members of the Grey Lords who have done so successfully before.

The fact that the difficulty of the Storage component would trend down over time also incentivises making this the initial design so there's more time to work the bugs out.

Side thought about storage mechanisms, all the material options probably have the same issue (if smaller) as the Loralim, as making a Waystone out of valuable material makes it much more attractive to break them open and steal the insides to resell. Quite possible back to the Project after laundering the origin.
I agree with this except for capstone, I think that wind-based method is worth the risk because with how rare high magic is it. I think it would be a bottleneck for the rest of the waystone.
 
Empire alone can build a waystone in the future. So I want to create a Waystone that is best of all 3 polities on it now to as a proof of concept and if in the future there is a problem we can build something like this;

Pure Empire build for the future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork OR [ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline


Plan Dwarven Build for future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And this is the Dwarven version. Leyline might be a bit iffy but until we examine the Dwarven network I am leaving it like this.

Plan Eonir Build for the future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And finally Eonir here.

But these are future plans for me. I want to mix these up for the best effect, for our first build.
 
Last edited:
Imo, the clockwork Foundation and fish Riverine Leyline are the worst choices by far. They require regular maintenance, and the places where waystones are the most needed are the ones where ensuring permanent maintenance will be the most difficult. And we run into the risk of people simply forgetting in a few decades or centuries to continue maintaining it.
 
Imo, the clockwork Foundation and fish Riverine Leyline are the worst choices by far. They require regular maintenance, and the places where waystones are the most needed are the ones where ensuring permanent maintenance will be the most difficult. And we run into the risk of people simply forgetting in a few decades or centuries to continue maintaining it.
Lol I put that to Dwarven only waystone. Dwarves are not going to forget it like ever. But that is a future plan for me yes.

IT is why I want to create the best we can right now. There needs to be something to draw all 3 polities together even once they get their own way of making Waystone and My plan delivers that by making if better more reliable by using best and most realiable parts for each job.
 
Question on the Collegiate Fascis:

Several weeks later you reconvene and piled upon the table are several proofs of concept. Your own is a thin rod of iron flanked by two wooden rods holding identical enchantments in two different Winds. The form of the enchantments is a very simple mechanism to attract the Wind in question - Ulgu for one, Hysh for the other - into it, and it's been deliberately stretched out throughout the length of the rod without anything being done to reinforce or stabilize it. The attractive presence of Dhar or the repulsive presence of other Winds will, in sufficient quantities, press against the energies that make up the enchantment until they're distorted enough that the enchantment no longer functions.

Does the distorting of the enchantment in the bolded bit outright break the enchantment, or just turn it off until the pressure disappears?
 
Back
Top