Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I assumed turns off untill pressure dissapears otherwise there is no point.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
About the only component that would swing my vote is the transmission method. I want Both, because it means saving an AP when we inevitably want to deploy the things in an area where we need one or the other. And for areas where both are valid, it offers redundancy if one method runs into problems.
Other than that, I trust whatever mix of Cost/Difficulty/Cooperation/Dhar/Politics/Maintenance the plans end up with will probably fall within "acceptable compromise" margins.
Other than that, I trust whatever mix of Cost/Difficulty/Cooperation/Dhar/Politics/Maintenance the plans end up with will probably fall within "acceptable compromise" margins.
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Just turns it off.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
So, there are a few broad approaches I've seen so far:
I think it would be really useful for this vote if we built a "catalogue" of options to allow for easier comparisons, because otherwise I think this vote's combinatoric explosion is going to overwhelm everyone. So I propose that planmakers @ me and categorize what purpose their plan is for, so I can build out a library of plans that will facilitate discussion and make voters' lives easier.
- Quick and easy prototype, here to score a win and prove that our plan is workable, but taking tradeoffs of maximum effectiveness in exchange.
- Overengineered prototype, here to impress the hell out of people but not be cost-effectively scalable.
- Potentially final leyline-based option, here to be a deployment model for places where leylines exist.
- Potentially final river-based option, here to be a deployment model for places like northern Kislev and Sylvania.
- Potentially final hybrid option, here to be a one-size-fits-all deployment model at the cost of increased risk of failure.
I think it would be really useful for this vote if we built a "catalogue" of options to allow for easier comparisons, because otherwise I think this vote's combinatoric explosion is going to overwhelm everyone. So I propose that planmakers @ me and categorize what purpose their plan is for, so I can build out a library of plans that will facilitate discussion and make voters' lives easier.
- Location
- Earth
[] Plan: All-Stars
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] [Expensive] Enchanted
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Jade)
@picklepikkl takes the best results from the partners and makes one very good waystone suitable for all purposes.
And one no polity can build alone.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Personally, I definitely want at least two versions of the Waystone, with one being the riverine/leyline hybrid. It is a direct improvement with very obvious special case uses, but there's no reason whatsoever to build it where there are no rivers. So the "standard" Waystone, which would probably be the one we make first, doesn't need to be a riverine one. And making one that is only riverine as the first prototype seems like an odd choice.
My preference is to go moderate costs for our first Waystone and to involve the Dwarves somehow, for political reasons. But having high and low storage versions seems useful, if the Thread can be bothered to develop them. That said, we could just let House Thindomiel develop those themselves down the road, depending on what type of storage we choose.
That said, it seems rather obvious to me that every single involved polity will look into alternative Waystone versions that can as much as possibly be made with just their own resources plus easily available personell from staunch allies or mercenaries if necessary. And I am not sure how much we should be involved in, say, Thorek's future studies of exclusively or mostly Dwarf-made Waystones. Creating a Collegiate Waystone at home for backup seems like a no-brainer though. Yet like one that Mathilde doesn't have to actually be personally involved in.
Edit: @Boney is there any reason for us/Mathilde to think that the Project members won't look into ways to make Waystones without international cooperation the moment the Project is over? Like something regarding Dwarven or Elven pride or Collegiate proceedings that I am missing?
My preference is to go moderate costs for our first Waystone and to involve the Dwarves somehow, for political reasons. But having high and low storage versions seems useful, if the Thread can be bothered to develop them. That said, we could just let House Thindomiel develop those themselves down the road, depending on what type of storage we choose.
That said, it seems rather obvious to me that every single involved polity will look into alternative Waystone versions that can as much as possibly be made with just their own resources plus easily available personell from staunch allies or mercenaries if necessary. And I am not sure how much we should be involved in, say, Thorek's future studies of exclusively or mostly Dwarf-made Waystones. Creating a Collegiate Waystone at home for backup seems like a no-brainer though. Yet like one that Mathilde doesn't have to actually be personally involved in.
Edit: @Boney is there any reason for us/Mathilde to think that the Project members won't look into ways to make Waystones without international cooperation the moment the Project is over? Like something regarding Dwarven or Elven pride or Collegiate proceedings that I am missing?
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- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
@picklepikkl
These are for the quick and easy (and not politically complicated by having the elves cast the dhar stuff) prototyping.
- Location
- Brazil
Seeing plans for expensive enchanted storages made me realize no one seen to be talking about one of the best points of the reverse engenireed, it gets easier as we make a lot of it.
Why ? Because Von Tarnus could make it, so it does not need high magic, so we could expect as we roll then out and improve the design the requirements should fall below super-savant at some point and we can have colege enchanters make them.
Why ? Because Von Tarnus could make it, so it does not need high magic, so we could expect as we roll then out and improve the design the requirements should fall below super-savant at some point and we can have colege enchanters make them.
These aren't lego, you can't just snap them together. There's going to be a lot of work needed to get everything to play nice together and that's work that has a lot better results when there's experts from a number of different traditions able to troubleshoot and workshop different solutions.
That was my Thought as well. One heavy duty and expensive River-Layline-Hybrid for the problemregions (Sylvania & northern Kislev) and one medium expensive standard one, which can be build anywhere it is needed.
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Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
[ ] Pure Empire build for the future Turns. V1 with clockwork
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
[ ] Pure Empire build for the future Turns. V2 with Colligate
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
[ ] Plan Dwarven Build for future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And this is the Dwarven version. Leyline might be a bit iffy but until we examine the Dwarven network I am leaving it like this.
[ ] Plan Eonir Build for the future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And finally Eonir here.
@picklepikkl These are future plans rather than for the current vote but I think should be added to list as well to show what is the idea after this vote. And who knows somebody might want to vote for them.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
[ ] Pure Empire build for the future Turns. V2 with Colligate
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
[ ] Plan Dwarven Build for future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Runed
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And this is the Dwarven version. Leyline might be a bit iffy but until we examine the Dwarven network I am leaving it like this.
[ ] Plan Eonir Build for the future Turns.
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Wizard
[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
And finally Eonir here.
@picklepikkl These are future plans rather than for the current vote but I think should be added to list as well to show what is the idea after this vote. And who knows somebody might want to vote for them.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
What's your plan? I mean the one for the current vote.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I like it. The only point I disagree with is using both for the transmission because it will make it more difficult to create it. But it's not a dealbreaker either, so I could vote for it.
@picklepikkl
I've already come up with some options here, and described my reasoning for them, but I want to highlight the two plans that I'm most keen on—Plan Something In-Between (which I'm going to rename to Plan Middle of the Road) and Plan Political Victory.
Plan Middle of the Road makes use of mid-tier components to quickly put out an affordable waystone without significantly compromising on quality or making trade-offs in regards to upkeep. If any of the components prove unworkable, then it can both be upgraded or downgraded as needed, and in theory it is flexible enough to be deployed in a wide variety of places. Future iterations can also build of the base of it, again upgrading or downgrading as needed. It's not the objectively best waystone, but it's a "good enough" compromise candidate that isn't too hard or expensive to build and deploy. I think it has a solid chance of standing the test of time, which is important if it's going to be the primary design for centuries to come.
One last thing—I don't know if this is an advantage or a disadvantage, but every component can be provided by the Colleges, making the Empire fairly self-sufficient on its construction. This also pushes both Kislev and the Karaz Ankor to be dependent on either the Empire, the Elves, or possibly even Bretonnia in the future, for the construction of new waystones.
Plan Political Victory goes in the opposite direction—it sacrifices many practical considerations to create a waystone that needs multiple polities to build. It requires specialist knowledge to create, and has the problem of requiring upkeep, but it also celebrates the achievements of the Eonir, the Dwarves, and the Hedgewise, and forces them into a partnership of equals in order to build waystones. This is perhaps more of an ideological waystone than a practical one, that trades off effectiveness in favour of politically empowering our allies. There was a recent comment by Boney about how the Ice Witches had been pretty humiliated by the project so far, having been unable to contribute anything of substance, and this avoids similar sentiments for the Elves and the Dwarves, whilst also giving a solid thumbs up to the Hedgewise that may help to legitimise them.
I've already come up with some options here, and described my reasoning for them, but I want to highlight the two plans that I'm most keen on—Plan Something In-Between (which I'm going to rename to Plan Middle of the Road) and Plan Political Victory.
Plan Middle of the Road makes use of mid-tier components to quickly put out an affordable waystone without significantly compromising on quality or making trade-offs in regards to upkeep. If any of the components prove unworkable, then it can both be upgraded or downgraded as needed, and in theory it is flexible enough to be deployed in a wide variety of places. Future iterations can also build of the base of it, again upgrading or downgrading as needed. It's not the objectively best waystone, but it's a "good enough" compromise candidate that isn't too hard or expensive to build and deploy. I think it has a solid chance of standing the test of time, which is important if it's going to be the primary design for centuries to come.
One last thing—I don't know if this is an advantage or a disadvantage, but every component can be provided by the Colleges, making the Empire fairly self-sufficient on its construction. This also pushes both Kislev and the Karaz Ankor to be dependent on either the Empire, the Elves, or possibly even Bretonnia in the future, for the construction of new waystones.
Plan Political Victory goes in the opposite direction—it sacrifices many practical considerations to create a waystone that needs multiple polities to build. It requires specialist knowledge to create, and has the problem of requiring upkeep, but it also celebrates the achievements of the Eonir, the Dwarves, and the Hedgewise, and forces them into a partnership of equals in order to build waystones. This is perhaps more of an ideological waystone than a practical one, that trades off effectiveness in favour of politically empowering our allies. There was a recent comment by Boney about how the Ice Witches had been pretty humiliated by the project so far, having been unable to contribute anything of substance, and this avoids similar sentiments for the Elves and the Dwarves, whilst also giving a solid thumbs up to the Hedgewise that may help to legitimise them.
Today is the day.
We need at least one dwarf and one elf thing for diplomatic reasons. We want it to be as effective and reliable as possible, this is a show-piece as much as it is a production model.
CAPSTONE: None of them are good. Collegiate Fascis means the river method doesn't work. Runic Inductor makes it more dangerous. Stone Flower results in a potentially crippling bottleneck.
RUNE: …Dwarven I suppose?
STORAGE: Not none. Somewhat against material on the assumption that some idiot will eventually want to steal it. Otherwise no specific preference.
FOUNDATION: Has to be the Grey Lord. Collegiate is politically dangerous and Clockwork required maintenance that we cannot rely on.
TRANSMISSION: We must include Leyline. It is the standard for very good reasons. I'm tempted by both incorporating with Jade or Spirit. I don't consider the Hedgewise method viable because it requires upkeep.
First option:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] ????
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
Simple and effective. Almost guaranteed to work but not special.
Stretch-goal option:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Enchanted
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lord
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Both (Riverine Spirit)
Outright better than any existing Waystone… if it works. Hard to make and needs experts from many diverse factions, but is thus a very strong unifying factor for those factions.
Also while I do not think we should make it now I am very interested in later making a secondary model. One designed specifically for mass production. It would look something like this:
[ ] [CAPSTONE] Runic Inductor
[ ] [RUNE] Carved
[ ] [STORAGE] [Cheap/Moderate/Expensive] Material
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Clockwork
[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Riverine (Hedgewise)
The crippling disadvantage is that it requires constant upkeep. This thing cannot operate without people looking after it. The incredible advantage is that it is extremely easy to make. The Runes are barely apprentice level and the Hedgewise only need be on-site for a day at most. Otherwise no magical expertise is needed at all. We can have these things built by the dozen and still consider the cost insignificant. We can carpet places like Sylvania and Mousillon in these.
glyph
completely and utterly fine
If we're designing a waystone for maximum deployment, we might as well take the reverse-engineered storage, given the promise of it becoming cheaper and easier with further use.
For the rune, I'd prefer a dwarven run for political reasons.
For transmission, I see the point of hybrid being overengineered for our first waystone, but also given that we'll probably need to spend AP on further designs, might be better to get maximum flexibility with our one AP that we'll probably spend on this for the forseeable future. Hedgewise honestly sounds like too much upkeep.
So I think my ideal draft is something like:
[] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[] [RUNE] Dwarven
[] [STORAGE] Reverse-Engineered
[] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lords
[] [TRANSMISSION] Hybrid (Jade)
For the rune, I'd prefer a dwarven run for political reasons.
For transmission, I see the point of hybrid being overengineered for our first waystone, but also given that we'll probably need to spend AP on further designs, might be better to get maximum flexibility with our one AP that we'll probably spend on this for the forseeable future. Hedgewise honestly sounds like too much upkeep.
So I think my ideal draft is something like:
[] [CAPSTONE] Stone Flower
[] [RUNE] Dwarven
[] [STORAGE] Reverse-Engineered
[] [FOUNDATION] Grey Lords
[] [TRANSMISSION] Hybrid (Jade)
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- Location
- Space
They also had an issue with exploding if their outflow got cut, right? Or am I misremembering that?
Feel free to disregard me if I'm poking the abstraction in the wrong way here, but a Cheap from one method is a roughly equivalent amount of storage as a Cheap from another and a Low is a roughly equivalent cost, right?
I am very, very, strongly against the idea of convincing any politicians anywhere that waystones are valid military targets. That seems vastly counter to the overall goals of this project.
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I agree, but I do worry that the trade off there might result in the first few waystones being too difficult to build, stalling the project before it has even begun, especially if we combine it with other high complexity components.
No, that's a danger if that component is damaged in a very particular way.
Very roughly.
[ ] Plan : Cooperation is magic
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
@picklepikkl
This plan's purpose is to create a high-quality, low-maintenance waystone based on collaboration between most parties of the Accords.
All parts outside of the storage can be done relatively easily, with only the Collegiate Fascis being moderately difficult, but doable by any Wind-based Wizard.
While the storage might be a challenge to get going, it's the only part of the Waystone dependant on elves. It will be a way to make sure Eonir Great Houses involved in it's fabrication stay relevant for a long time to come AND make use of Asur collaboration we bargained for. It might take a lot of ressources for both elven polities to keep up with other collaborators in the beginning, but it's also their only responsability AND will get easier with time.
Reliance on the Waystone Network does mean that the network will have to be expanded if we are to cover the Old World, but I think it's a decent price to pay in order to have a standard waystone that doesn't require a river to function. Plus, there is plenty of territory to cover while we figure out how to build/repair the nexuses neccessary to expand the network.
As for the Dhar implications of the Collegiate Foundation... I think getting a dispensation is worth it to avoid bringing more work to elven enchanters who already have their plate full with the reverse-enineered storage or increased maintenance due to clockwork.
-[ ] [CAPSTONE] Collegiate Fascis
-[ ] [RUNE] Dwarven
-[ ] [STORAGE] Reverse-engineered
-[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
-[ ] [TRANSMISSION] Leyline
@picklepikkl
This plan's purpose is to create a high-quality, low-maintenance waystone based on collaboration between most parties of the Accords.
All parts outside of the storage can be done relatively easily, with only the Collegiate Fascis being moderately difficult, but doable by any Wind-based Wizard.
While the storage might be a challenge to get going, it's the only part of the Waystone dependant on elves. It will be a way to make sure Eonir Great Houses involved in it's fabrication stay relevant for a long time to come AND make use of Asur collaboration we bargained for. It might take a lot of ressources for both elven polities to keep up with other collaborators in the beginning, but it's also their only responsability AND will get easier with time.
Reliance on the Waystone Network does mean that the network will have to be expanded if we are to cover the Old World, but I think it's a decent price to pay in order to have a standard waystone that doesn't require a river to function. Plus, there is plenty of territory to cover while we figure out how to build/repair the nexuses neccessary to expand the network.
As for the Dhar implications of the Collegiate Foundation... I think getting a dispensation is worth it to avoid bringing more work to elven enchanters who already have their plate full with the reverse-enineered storage or increased maintenance due to clockwork.
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- Location
- Canada
I looked over the options and put this one together before reading the comments, yeah; it does seem like the closest recreation of the original, but with an extra fallback option to make it a slight improvement on the original. This will be the plan I vote for.
For those worried about the lack of human components here, note that the Empire was not involved in making the original, but there's still a lot of drudgework here that can probably be more profitably done by Human Wizards instead of by Elven Archmages. We can still contribute, it's just a less glorious contribution.
But if "humans not required" feels like a dealbreaker, we could keep the rest but go with the Jade Riverine model instead of the Spirit one, which would nicely tie all three major players in.
That was the other stand-out option on my list. I'm sure the Karaz Ankor can scrounge up a few Runescribes who already speak or can learn one or more of the appropriate languages to an acceptable standard. Honestly, we ought to do this one as a backup to the original design anyways, partly to give the Dwarves an indigenous technology way to rebuild the conduits empowering the works of their Ancestors, and partly to help ensure that the Elves don't drag their feet too hard on that 'availability of Elven Archmages' component.
Yeah, it'd generally be a good idea to get other pure (faction) build models out in the future, since each local project can help stabilize and strengthen the network separately from the best-quality cooperative project, but I agree that this is best suited to future builds; the first model should be a cooperative design, and ideally it should be the best design we have, instead of a kludgy compromise.
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- Location
- Earth
FOUNDATION Grey Lord can still be done by most Collegiate enchanters.
Yours limits it to 1/8 of them.
[ ] [FOUNDATION] Collegiate
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
I think the need for a light wizard might be misleading here? @Boney
Does the fact that this is simple mean that a lower level Light wizard can be used to make the components? like the moderatly difficult components need a journeymen or magister equivalent but the collegiate can get away with apprentices? That would change the calculus considerably
Requires a Light Wizard. Simple, low cost.
I think the need for a light wizard might be misleading here? @Boney
Does the fact that this is simple mean that a lower level Light wizard can be used to make the components? like the moderatly difficult components need a journeymen or magister equivalent but the collegiate can get away with apprentices? That would change the calculus considerably
- Location
- Oklahoma
I don't think requiring upkeep is entirely a bad thing.
A lot of the current issue is that people forgot or just never knew how important the waystones are. Needing to maintain them to keep them functioning could serve to keep them in people's minds.
Human memories are short, but they can be refreshed.
A lot of the current issue is that people forgot or just never knew how important the waystones are. Needing to maintain them to keep them functioning could serve to keep them in people's minds.
Human memories are short, but they can be refreshed.