I mean, we do know that Bretonnia has some of the best arable land in the Old World, if only because the vast overwhelming majority of it isn't covered by forests full of magical murderous goatmen, or getting trampled on by marching armies.
A) That would mean they have the most arable land if that was the case, not necessarily the most fertile.
B) I'd expect there's plenty of marching armies in Bretonnia. Possibly even more-so, given that river travel seems disincentivised compared to the Empire.
I don't see the problem? When it's in a quote it automatically hides them under a 'Click to expand...' thingy. Doesn't take up screenspace like just posting the images does.
I don't see the problem? When it's in a quote it automatically hides them under a 'Click to expand...' thingy. Doesn't take up screenspace like just posting the images does.
You never know what's under that 'Click to expand...' whereas a properly labelled spoiler means people who are on a slow and/or mobile device will know not to open it.
As far as I can tell the 'core' time manipulating Wind would be Hysh, as it deals with the flow of time directly.
The weird twist things would be Ulgu(exploiting the boundaries and confusion involving Time), Shyish(Time in its sole aspect of advancing Entropy), and Azyr(looking into and influencing the future). But they don't change time as a whole.
I struggle to see how this can be an argument in-universe.
The Lady of the Lake is, by far, the most active and responsive god on the planet. Unless she is deliberately trolling people (which seems directly opposed to her portfolio) I can't see how a definitive answer wasn't reached long ago.
Hardly, the issue is not an important one to the ranks involving the Fey Enchantress or the Lady - everyone involved is already a noble, and evidently if they can obtain her blessings she approves of what they say.
Which could be interpreted in a number of ways:
-Nobility as a state of the soul, rather than a temporal matter of titles and land ownership. Of having honor,
-Nobility as a matter of bloodline, as you can't really disprove having some.
-The circular logic of noblility being defined by having the Lady's favor.
But it is most likely that the Lady simply never said anything about peasants being forbidden from worship, and its a social control measure commonly instituted by lords. Certainly her practices have a substantial entry barrier for poor people, but its never really been relevant whether poor people can stop being so.
But it is most likely that the Lady simply never said anything about peasants being forbidden from worship, and its a social control measure commonly instituted by lords. Certainly her practices have a substantial entry barrier for poor people, but its never really been relevant whether poor people can stop being so.
It is possible, but would it not have come up eventually for some damsels who would go and ask for a clarification?
How long has Brettonia been worshipping the Lady? Centuries? Millenia? This seems like something that would come up eventually.
Especially given that damsels are not just nobility, but are pulled from every social strata, so while they might be completely removed from their social class of origin, they also are not beholden to the nobility in any way.
And with occcasional peasant making through their quest into nobility, it definitely sounds like something that would crop up as a question.
I've no doubt that some lords try to ban peasants from worshipping the Lady, or some peasants try even if forbidden, but i just don't see how there could be a large scale confusion on wether or not the Lady wants them to or not.
When the cutting edge of information technology is writing a letter and giving it to a guy on a horse, there will be very hard limits on standardization and centralization of anything, including religious doctrine.
Again, why would there be such an argument to begin with? People with access to Damsels are hardly going to be questioning their own right to rule often. Damsels are taken from their families as children and hardly have the context to wonder about the question.
Hell, even Bretonnians themselves wouldn't see it as a question. Each area has their own local beliefs which are obviously how things are. Maybe the locals worship the Lady through her champions, maybe they aren't blessed enough for her holy places, or maybe only the best can prove themselves worthy.
Or maybe they have a Grail Knight's relic and run around trying to prove themselves worthy of it by enthusiatically attacking monsters and criminals
Again, why would there be such an argument to begin with? People with access to Damsels are hardly going to be questioning their own right to rule often. Damsels are taken from their families as children and hardly have the context to wonder about the question.
Hell, even Bretonnians themselves wouldn't see it as a question. Each area has their own local beliefs which are obviously how things are. Maybe the locals worship the Lady through her champions, maybe they aren't blessed enough for her holy places, or maybe only the best can prove themselves worthy.
Or maybe they have a Grail Knight's relic and run around trying to prove themselves worthy of it by enthusiatically attacking monsters and criminals
Lady of the Lake: the main argument is if she is the goddess of Bretonnia, and so should be worshipped by all, or the goddess of nobility and chivalry, and so be restricted to the knights and nobles.
Not an expert on lore, no idea how accurate this is, but if it was not a thing i would have expected someone having mentioned it already.
If it's just a regional custom that never actualy becomes a debate, then it might not get noticed, until two damsels who spend time in different regions come into contact.
But if there is actual contention going on, then it is eminently solvable by the Damsels or Grail Knights.
The easiest answer might be that the Lady simply does not give a fuck, and leaves her people to do whatever as long as her chivalric romance story does not get disturbed.
When the cutting edge of information technology is writing a letter and giving it to a guy on a horse, there will be very hard limits on standardization and centralization of anything, including religious doctrine.
You'd be surprised, considering that things that have become widespread standards in those conditions include the metric system and the Catholic Church.
You'd be surprised, considering that things that have become widespread standards in those conditions include the metric system and the Catholic Church.
The former is post-Renaissance and still coexists alongside countless regional weights and measures, and the latter never went more than five years without some new and interesting heresy popping up.
You'd be surprised, considering that things that have become widespread standards in those conditions include the metric system and the Catholic Church.
Bad example, considering how long it took to actually standardize those two things. Metric system took half a century to be standardized in France and Europe, and even then still kept being tweaked for a long while afterwards to refine and fit all the new and old stuff inside said metric system (as pointed out above, metric system is also post-renaissance and only opened up as a possibility due to the clean sweep caused by the French Revolution).
Heck, it could even be argued that the catholic church still isn't standardized. They just subsumed everything they can and just posted some "concrete rules" that they could change at their convenience.
Standardization is an absolutely horrid thing to actually try to implement when distance is such a domineering factor, what with the dangers of travel and all that. And we don't even have orcs, beastmen, Chaos and the like.
The former is post-Renaissance and still coexists alongside countless regional weights and measures, and the latter never went more than five years without some new and interesting heresy popping up.
The Empire has ten major cults, hundreds of minor ones, and thousand of sects and heresies. It would take the length of a book to cover all the possibilities.
(and 'theurgy' is a word often used by the thread to refer to something else entirely, use 'divine magic' instead)
Divine magic provides a good check for what cults are acceptable to a god if your cults priests have access they are acceptable. Politics will try and restrict some cults but this does explain having a large amount of cults for each god to a greater extend then in our world.
Divine magic provides a good check for what cults are acceptable to a god if your cults priests have access they are acceptable. Politics will try and restrict some cults but this does explain having a large amount of cults for each god to a greater extend then in our world.
I suspect most religious doctrine in settings like Warhammer is just, stuff that got gathered along the way. Things that don't actually matter to the god in question, but someone high enough decided that this is how we do it, and then it became a habit, then a tradition, and finally a doctrine, and the same thing happens on smaller scale in every temple large enough to train their own acolytes.
Damsels are all trained in a single location, and to an extent by single set of teachers, so i would expect them to have lot less of that going on.
But then i would also assume that there are lot less Damsels than there are regular priests in the Empire relative to the population, so lot of stuff never actually reaches a Damsel level, or Damsels do not consider it important enough to do anything about.
Most peasants probably never talk to a Damsel, many might never see one, so lot of regional differences can flourish as long as nobles get to blows over it so it can just exist as a background noise like local grass length regulation or what day the trash gets collected.
[*] Karak Eight Peaks
[*] Laurelorn
[*] Carcassone
[*] Praag
"Right," King Belegar says as you approach him in Karag Lhune's council chamber, where he's locked in battle with teetering stacks of books, scrolls, and letters in his attempts to find ways to lure Clans to Karak Eight Peaks. "You wanted to talk about setting up the Waystone project here?" You nod. "You'll have my backing wherever you end up doing this, of course, but all the resources and influence of the Karak are concentrated here. You're already familiar with the advantages of the Karak - decent wealth and influence, access to Dwarven resources and expertise, Gyrocarriages, and the like. The complicated part is the Runesmiths. Operating out of Karak Eight Peaks would mean you'll have easy access to Kragg and Thorek if you can convince them to get involved, as well as making it easier to recruit any other Runesmiths you think might be able to contribute. The Cult of Thungni is very leery about outsiders getting their hands on their secrets, and being under Dwarven authority would make them more comfortable with the situation and might help sway any that are unsure.
"Of course, the reason they'd be more comfortable is that the Cult of Thungni has a lot of law, precedent, and tradition backing them up when it comes to keeping their secrets. They're not going to get anywhere trying to claim the Waystones themselves as secrets of Runesmithing because they were created in conjunction with the Elves, but they might stick their nose in if they think you're getting too close to what they consider theirs. It might be easier to perform your investigation far from their reach with an open-minded Runesmith than to do it right under their nose - I trust you to keep any secrets you stumble across to yourself, but the Cult of Thungni may not."
You nod as you absorb this. "Whose jurisdiction would I technically be under in that regard? Karak Eight Peaks doesn't have a Runesmiths Guild."
"Not for lack of trying on my part. If there's something that needs to become official, then the Ironbrows of Karak Azul would argue that it should fall to them, while the Thungnissons of Karaz-a-Karak would undoubtedly do the same. The Redbeards of Barak Varr might end up a compromise candidate. But whoever it is, I assume it wouldn't help to have a suspicious Runesmith looking over your shoulder and glaring at the Elves."
"Probably not," you admit.
"The other complicating factor would be Waystones themselves. I'd ask that you not try to experiment with the Karags, and I don't know where the next nearest ones would be, whether you might be able to find some in the Badlands or the Border Princes or might have to travel all the way to the Empire. You'd have access to the Gyrocarriages for that, of course, but that seems like it would still present an inconvenience."
"It may, depending on what it would actually look like once we get to the in-person study and experimentation." You frown as you consider it further. Do greenskins habitually interfere with the Waystones? Would Strygos have? What about the many, many different holders of the Border Princes over the years? It might actually come down to having to go all the way to the southern Empire for the nearest working Waystone.
"We're certainly not short of places you could set up," Belegar continues. "You could expand further down into Karag Nar, or if you need somewhere away from bystanders, Kvinn-Wyr or Karag Zilfin are mostly empty. Or the Lhune Depths, or the Silver Tower, or... well, it might be quicker to list the areas that aren't available. You get the idea."
"What about the matter of politics? If I'm under your authority, then technically I'm also under that of the High King."
"And if the Karak-Waystones are being used to benefit Karaz-a-Karak alone, then he could use that authority to try to interfere with attempts to inspect the Waystones. That's true, but if he does do so it would confirm my suspicion and give me an excellent reason to broach the topic with the other Kings. While the letter of the law gives the High King a great deal of power, most of it hasn't been exercised since the shattering of the Underway. Four millennia of tradition carry a lot of weight." You nod while you resist the urge to frown. While that confirmation might be very useful to King Belegar, it could also grind the project to a halt as it gets bogged down within a larger conflict within the Karaz Ankor. You've got greater ambitions for it than being a diplomatic tripwire. "Out of curiosity, where are the other candidates? Altdorf and Laurelorn, I assume?"
"Those two, plus Carcassonne and Praag."
"I've been hearing good things of Carcassonne of late from Karak Norn and Karak Izor. I'd been hoping that manlings would take note of the Dalaz Kron business after the reclamation, and wondering if word of it spread that far afield, or if they've got some other reason to align with the Grey Mountain Dwarves. As for Praag... well, few places would welcome what you hope to provide more than they, I'm sure."
---
That Laurelorn is far from the worst forest on the continent to walk into unannounced and unescorted says more about the continent than it does about Laurelorn. So you have Lord Magister Krammovitch send a message to his counterpart in the Gold Order, who sends a message to the Wizards and Alchemists Guild in Middenheim, who send a message to the Graf's diplomat, who presumably sends a message to someone of the Eonir. The reply you get has you travelling north to Middenheim to collect a letter of transit, then further north to Nordland's capital of Salzenmund. Built at the confluence of the headwaters of the Salz in the Silver Hills, Salzenmund is known as a bustling and prosperous city built upon carpentry and silversmithing. But that was before the Eonir began to enforce their territorial claims and now Salzenmund abuts the border with a foreign power, and in stark contrast to its reputation the city you find is quiet, tense, and full of soldiers, and the western wall is bristling with cannon. The phrase 'Wizard business' and a stern look gets the gate raised for you, and it slams shut behind you as you cross the bridge across the Salz, into Laurelorn proper.
The road is sturdy and well-made but no longer maintained, and questing roots and bold saplings have begun to lever apart the stones. To each side young trees fill areas that had once been felled clear, and overhead the canopy seems to deliberately stretch out to fill as much of the sky as it can, leaving only a thin sliver of daylight above. Despite its darkness the forest is filled with life and the air with birdsong, and you catch many glimpses of flitting birds and darting rodents. But despite all that you catch barely a glimpse of ambient magic, and it takes close examination to see a shimmer of Ghyran afterglow in the trees. From experience you know that woods like this are usually thick with magic, but it seems the Laurelorn is an exception.
It's not immediately obvious when you reach Oldenlitz, as only a drop in the quality of the road and a thinning of the canopy overhead are immediately obvious. Closer examination finds a great deal of rubble half-buried in the leaf litter and flagstones shattered so that a sapling can rise defiantly through what was once a stone floor. And the saplings themselves prove of interest, as you can feel a faint tug upon the pool of Ulgu within you as you approach, and a wisp of magical energy you release is drawn into the wood and sinks downwards and out of sight.
"Lornalim ithil," says a familiar voice, and you refuse to jump.
"Vicereine Cadaeth," you say as you straighten up. "You're looking very different than when we last met."
She smiles as she approaches, brushing imaginary dirt off her outfit of leather and scale, with what looks like bark standing in for steel. "I was an envoy seeking to charm, where I am now a mother standing vigil over her children." She runs a fond hand over the leaves of the nearest sapling as she passes.
"Lornalim ithil... I thought the Silver Wood was west of the Demst?"
"The Verdan Ithil was once more than a few well-guarded glades. You could once find groves of the two varieties of lornalim throughout the entirety of Laurelorn and beyond, before the men of Nordland discovered their names were quite literal. They learned that if they see veins of silver or gold in the trees, they will find the same if they dig down."
You watch as a second wisp of Ulgu is greedily drunk by the tree. "They're natural Waystones."
"Yes, for a certain definition of 'natural'. Tributaries to the leyline-streams. But quite dependent on the metals they take their name from, and given a choice between material wealth and the continued existence of life on this world, your kind has a distressing tendency to choose wealth."
You think again of Salzenmund's twin industries of silversmithing and carpentry and wince. "Ah," you say.
"Our long resistance against Drakwald sapped both our and their strength, until they fell to Beastmen and we nearly with them. So when Nordland began to encroach, we measured what lornalim losses we could sustain without our forests becoming thick with stagnant magic and swarming with Beastmen, and for a time we achieved peace with the Nordlanders. But every new generation and each new Grand Baron wanted more, and when more was not given, they took anyway. We were faced with a slow extinction by Beastman predation, or a fast extinction by a new war. Until we encountered an army of Middenland while fighting the slow extinction, and found a third way forward. One that required only a few villages to die." She kneels down and runs a finger along a barely-visible vein of silver along a sapling's trunk. "If we had waited just a few more years, we would have felt the reactivation of Karak Eight Peaks ripple through the leylines and known that there may be a fourth way, a way not so steeped in blood. History seems to delight in making fools of us all."
"This is why you wanted to meet me here? To make a point about the history between Empire and Eonir?"
"Partly." She gives a sudden smile, almost managing to dispel the mood she's crafted. "And because curiosity is a powerful motivator. Though we will contribute no matter where it is that you will pool the efforts of Elf and Dwarf, we will not show you the wonders of Tor Lithanel unless it plays host to the work in question."
"What wonders would those be?" you can't help but ask.
"The towers and jewels of Tor Lithanel have captured the soul of many an artist, but I suspect most relevant to you would be the Library of Mournings, twice the age of your Teclis' White Tower. It contains scrolls that predate the Elven race, and scrolls written in the hands of Caledor, Astarielle, Maruviel, and Yvraine. Access to such a library would be of great benefit to the project, don't you think?"
You take a breath. "It would," you say with incredible understatement, trying not to show how tempted you are. "So you would allow the project to be located within Tor Lithanel? Including all its associates?"
"Dwarves and all. They never managed to reach Tor Lithanel in the turmoil of their War of Vengeance, and with the extinction of House Elywn at the Battle of the Schadensumpf, we have no more major houses from Kor Immarmor. So the High Council is now quite unanimous in letting bygones be bygones. We'll also be a lot freer to contribute our expertise to a local project - we have mages that will travel to contribute, but the Grey Lords prefer not to leave their forests, as do some of the more esoteric beings that contribute to our society." She gives an artful little smile and cocks a hip. "Myself included, if you've grown fond of my company."
"I'll keep that in mind," you say simply. Though to your mundane sight she's simply standing there talking, you've watched the bulk of her soul flow from tree to tree like a nurturing mother bird, and you're quite sure you have only a fraction of her full attention. Part of you finds that intriguing, but another part is reminded that you're still not sure if you could identify her species with any confidence.
"Please do. We've no intention of being the mirror to our cousins of Ulthuan, who always seek to control and only ever grant the meagrest of morsels. We want to build a lasting partnership, and a lasting peace, with the institutions of the Empire, so we can live in peace in our forest. Considering the beings that would be all too eager to fill the void if we passed from this world, isn't that in everyone's best interest?"
She's certainly easier on the eyes than the Beastmen. You promise her that you'll have an answer for her soon before parting ways once more. You've got two possible hosts left to check, and a lot of hours airborne ahead of you.
There's also the issue that two different Damsels may worship two slightly different Ladies of the Lake depending on how gods work. The goddess one Damsel worships may encompass more elitist themes/regions of the Aethyr than another one does, while still overlapping enough to be considered the same entity.
Edit: That's a very strong pitch from the Eonir. Carcassone and Praag are really going to have to work hard to do better.
"The towers and jewels of Tor Lithanel have captured the soul of many an artist, but I suspect most relevant to you would be the Library of Mournings, twice the age of your Teclis' White Tower. It contains scrolls that predate the Elven race, and scrolls written in the hands of Caledor, Astarielle, Maruviel, and Yvraine. Access to such a library would be of great benefit to the project, don't you think?"
This might just be my inner Dwarf speaking, But compared to Belegar's frank assessment of things, the lack of negatives brought up by Cadaeth... I don't like it.
"The towers and jewels of Tor Lithanel have captured the soul of many an artist, but I suspect most relevant to you would be the Library of Mournings, twice the age of your Teclis' White Tower. It contains scrolls that predate the Elven race, and scrolls written in the hands of Caledor, Astarielle, Maruviel, and Yvraine. Access to such a library would be of great benefit to the project, don't you think?"
