Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Mopman43 · Apr 12, 2022

Rafin said:
That's Johann then. I guess he's settled into Tor Lithanel so much that he doesn't commute like Mathilde? Does Max?

Okral is a plural, so multiple Gold Wizards.

He probably means the Gold College and their pile of Skaven loot.

Wodger · Apr 12, 2022

Is a Self-Improvement action to practice scouting/infiltration in the Irrana Mountains something we could do? Maybe even pay CF for a teacher to come with us? Regimand?

Rafin · Apr 12, 2022

DragonParadox said:
I wonder if we can do an end run around the actual full 'ask the Damsels what they want to join the project' and just do an orc killing action that ends up with showing up in Carcasone and asking for Damsels? That would spare us a month of work.

We could also ask Queen Marisith to establish the most basic diplomatic relations with Athel Loren, so that she can give us a paper with two seals that says that there are no known animosities or rivalries between the two and that both sides agree.

Garlak said:
Ah. So, they might have asked him "Ranald, what did you do?" and he answered with "I stole a Dwarf soul!" Specifically, he stole a lot of Dwarf souls; he stole Karak Vlag. But he let them believe he stole Mathilde's soul. Or something. Who knows.

He's the Deceiver. He might just have outright lied to them. Although...

Boney said:
After certain confidential information was vouchsafed to this body by a source of undoubtable repute,

I forgot that this line was in the letter. So it can't have been Ranald himself, since he is definitely not of undoubtable repute and they also could just have written "Ranald confessed" in that case. Only thing I can think of that happened here is that they managed to speak with another (somehow trustworthy) Aethyr entity and ask it to contact Ranald for them. And then Ranald bamboozled said entity. But who could that have been? The Ancestor-Gods are famously silent, aren't they?

mathymancer said:
2. More security (and ideally more Verenan security)

I'm actually curious what kinds of people volunteer to become Knights of the Scroll in charge of guarding libraries in otherwise pretty damn safe locations. It's a cushy job that marries regular martial training with easy access to a lot of reading material and the right to either loom over or encourage potential readers passing through the doors. I for one look forward to meeting our fellow nerd-jocks.

Boney said:
It would have been on his reading list.

horngeek said:
Her implication seems to be 'once the project shows results' to me.

I read it as multiple options. A) Assuage us that we wouldn't get in trouble with Athel Loren. B) Help us with a major problem, like those Iron Orcs we told you about. And/or C) actually have something to show for that makes us want to join the Waystone Project for its own sake.

Which is fair of them.

Otherwise, the Father might also still be useful. But even if it is, I now think that it would be a bit ungrateful to try and pull that without tackling either A, B or C.

fictionfan said:
Considering that about half the enemies of order are of massive hordes variety machine guns would be a massive game changer in general. However there is a problem machine guns need bullets. Lots of bullets, tons of bullet, more bullets then the dwarfs could ever craft. In world war 2 about 5K to 5OK bullets were shot for every death.

I have doubts that they could craft 50k bullets between battles.

Maybe the new Gunnery School and Foundry in Karag Nar can help there? Human mass production with enough oversight by a Dawi to prevent the worst of Umgi umginess.

K von Carstein said:
Machine guns would nullify that, and without an industrial basis you can create your own. Which means the greenskins and beastmen can't ever create them, and the WoC would need to rely even more on the Choas Dwarfs, and need very long logistical lines for all the ammunition.

Makes me wonder how it comes that the Chorfs haven't developed their own yet. They should have no problem just copying the Warpstone based version. Maybe they have a much smaller supply of Warpstone than the Under-Empire, since they don't get out much and their business partners most often have their own uses for the stuff?

pucflek said:
I am honestly not enthused about technological progress in Warhammer Fantasy tbh. Rare novelty items of terrifying power are fun, but WW1 simulator in my renneisance magic fantasy is rubbing me the wrong way.

Have you looked at how Skaven vs Dwarf battles look in Total War? It's a damn bullet storm. The only reason why trenches and cover and urban warfare style tunnel fighting aren't a thing there is game limitations.

veekie said:
Lorekeepers here would be better at our ideological goals, but I think we'd be facing greater challenges with getting buy-in, since a lot of the libraries we know are going to be more Scrollbearer aligned, interested in keeping organizational secrets, secret.

As for getting Scrollbearer buy in, copies of exclusive Elven Lore Books are a good currency.

Scrollbearers shouldn't have too much of a problem with us paying lip service to the Lorekeepers and hosting some of them in far off Karak Eight Peaks. As long as we get them books that they can't get anywhere else they will be willing to trade. Any books containing knowledge they don't want Lorekeepers to be able to spread they won't share with us in the first place. Especially since the founding charter of the KAU is "Vala-Azril-Ungol vornit urbar kron, karakar kron, dawri afanaddokar kron. Gandar, barar un zintar grozkron gronit barazit dawri, dawi un nadawi."
Given the emphasis on dissemination (afanaddokar), the only thing separating the KAU from Lorekeeper philosophy is the lack of Verena and thus divine incentive to follow through.

Boney said:
The Foogers have been in Marienburg for centuries, so they're not really a reflection of mainstream Dawi culture.

I wonder if young Marienburger Dwarves have gotten enough of a taste for Human and Halfling companionship to make this saying natural for Arkat and/or if Marienburger brothels actually employ Dwarves these days. I do not expect this to be answered though.

I'll just post this before tackling Codex's reaction post. If any of my questions and comments have already been addressed, then accept my apology.

VoiceOfTheRiders · Apr 12, 2022

I took the time to go and look at what the initial premise of the project is.
From Mathilde's perspective when she decided to take on the project:

Boney said:
But there's one path that has the potential to serve all those you feel loyal to, and indeed all of the Civilized Realms: the Waystone Project. Though you realize your idle daydreams of being able to fully replicate the masterworks of Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor at their respective heights is unlikely, a better understanding of the Waystones would allow them to be better protected and might allow for bolstering them in some way. They and the Great Vortex are what makes life possible on this world, as otherwise the magic constantly pouring in from the poles would accumulate indefinitely and allow Daemons to freely walk the world once more, and the forces of Chaos are very aware of this and often seek to corrupt or destroy them. Before his departure, Teclis charged the Colleges to protect the Waystones of the Old World at all costs, a duty that is all too easy to neglect when one is forced to choose between protecting the lives of innocents and protecting oversized rocks in overgrown forests.

Mahtilde's initial goals are to increase the understanding of waystones for purposes of better protecting them and bolstering them in some way. Adding additional tributaries fulfills this, if barely.

When talking to Cadaeth about Laurelorn hosting the project:

Boney said:
You watch as a second wisp of Ulgu is greedily drunk by the tree. "They're natural Waystones."

"Yes, for a certain definition of 'natural'. Tributaries to the leyline-streams. But quite dependent on the metals they take their name from, and given a choice between material wealth and the continued existence of life on this world, your kind has a distressing tendency to choose wealth."

You think again of Salzenmund's twin industries of silversmithing and carpentry and wince. "Ah," you say.

"Our long resistance against Drakwald sapped both our and their strength, until they fell to Beastmen and we nearly with them. So when Nordland began to encroach, we measured what lornalim losses we could sustain without our forests becoming thick with stagnant magic and swarming with Beastmen, and for a time we achieved peace with the Nordlanders. But every new generation and each new Grand Baron wanted more, and when more was not given, they took anyway. We were faced with a slow extinction by Beastman predation, or a fast extinction by a new war. Until we encountered an army of Middenland while fighting the slow extinction, and found a third way forward. One that required only a few villages to die." She kneels down and runs a finger along a barely-visible vein of silver along a sapling's trunk. "If we had waited just a few more years, we would have felt the reactivation of Karak Eight Peaks ripple through the leylines and known that there may be a fourth way, a way not so steeped in blood. History seems to delight in making fools of us all."

"This is why you wanted to meet me here? To make a point about the history between Empire and Eonir?"

"Partly." She gives a sudden smile, almost managing to dispel the mood she's crafted. "And because curiosity is a powerful motivator. Though we will contribute no matter where it is that you will pool the efforts of Elf and Dwarf, we will not show you the wonders of Tor Lithanel unless it plays host to the work in question."

"What wonders would those be?" you can't help but ask.

"The towers and jewels of Tor Lithanel have captured the soul of many an artist, but I suspect most relevant to you would be the Library of Mournings, twice the age of your Teclis' White Tower. It contains scrolls that predate the Elven race, and scrolls written in the hands of Caledor, Astarielle, Maruviel, and Yvraine. Access to such a library would be of great benefit to the project, don't you think?"

You take a breath. "It would," you say with incredible understatement, trying not to show how tempted you are. "So you would allow the project to be located within Tor Lithanel? Including all its associates?"

"Dwarves and all. They never managed to reach Tor Lithanel in the turmoil of their War of Vengeance, and with the extinction of House Elywn at the Battle of the Schadensumpf, we have no more major houses from Kor Immarmor. So the High Council is now quite unanimous in letting bygones be bygones. We'll also be a lot freer to contribute our expertise to a local project - we have mages that will travel to contribute, but the Grey Lords prefer not to leave their forests, as do some of the more esoteric beings that contribute to our society." She gives an artful little smile and cocks a hip. "Myself included, if you've grown fond of my company."

"I'll keep that in mind," you say simply. Though to your mundane sight she's simply standing there talking, you've watched the bulk of her soul flow from tree to tree like a nurturing mother bird, and you're quite sure you have only a fraction of her full attention. Part of you finds that intriguing, but another part is reminded that you're still not sure if you could identify her species with any confidence.

"Please do. We've no intention of being the mirror to our cousins of Ulthuan, who always seek to control and only ever grant the meagrest of morsels. We want to build a lasting partnership, and a lasting peace, with the institutions of the Empire, so we can live in peace in our forest. Considering the beings that would be all too eager to fill the void if we passed from this world, isn't that in everyone's best interest?"

Laurelorn was facing a slow death as their network enhancements were slowly being lost. Ultimatly with their allying with Middenland, this concern was reduced. However they realized, due to Mathilde, that improving the waystone network as a whole was possible and that by doing so their local area of the network would likewise be improved. They also want a long term relationship with the empire as a whole. I believe that the Eonir would want to have the functionality to restore waystones. However if that turns out impossible they will not be adverse to a plan B, that while not as much as they hoped for is still an improvement.

Thus if all the project manages is a map of the waystones in the old world- thus ensuring that all waystones can be regularly checked up upon and the placing of tributaries across the old-world, the project will have met the initial requirements, but won't have gone beyond that.

I also note that fulfilling the initial requirements can be done in other ways just that the above is one such way.

pucflek · Apr 12, 2022

VoiceOfTheRiders said:
Thus if all the project manages is a map of the waystones in the old world- thus ensuring that all waystones can be regularly checked up upon and the placing of tributaries across the old-world, the project will have met the initial requirements, but won't have gone beyond that.

I also note that fulfilling the initial requirements can be done in other ways just that the above is one such way.

My assumption for Eonir expectation is this.

Boney said:
"Eight Peaks reconnected, and we thought, okay, that's good for the Dwarves, but Dwarves being Dwarves, no real relevance to us. But then Boris passes on the transcript of the lecture on greenskin magic, which some of our mages found intriguing because, of course, we're not capable of lowering ourselves enough to understand their magics. So we had a look into you, and when we realized that someone with an affinity for understanding magics is in Eight Peaks and working with the Dwarves, we had to speak with you. We've got our own piece of the network just as the Dwarves do, and if we could bring a few more Waystones online, it could do a lot of good for us - and our friends and allies.

This is the minimal goal to shoot for. Awakening the dormant, undamaged stones.

Alliterate · Apr 12, 2022

pucflek said:
This is the minimal goal to shoot for. Awakening the dormant, undamaged stones.

And the fun part is, they think we're coming in with some knowledge of how do that, thinking we've triggered reactivation at K8P.

Codex said:
Simple and clean. Underwhelming for Mathilde because she favor traded to do this and she didn't get much out of it, but not everything ends up in dead cults and jolly cooperation. Sometimes things are just tame and subdued.

I think on this one, we received credit from Mira in return for facilitating this introduction, it wasn't a cost Mathilde paid. Info sharing is a modest but valuable outcome.

[x] [DWARF] No purchase.
[x] [LIBRARY] Back-fill
[x] [PURCHASE] Write-in. - A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[x] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[x] [PURCHASE] Write-in. - A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen, Trade: Extensive Eonir

I have no interest in Shallyan and Lady and Bretonnia books, but don't mind a thank-you gift axe.
In two minds about Trade, as we heard other people are already thinking about it, and we don't *have* to insert the EIC everywhere.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 12, 2022

@Boney, would hunting an apparition with Johann be a viable Web-Mat action? Since he's got battle magic clearance and his master is Gehenna I assume he knows that background involved, and it would be nice to have some backup in case things go bad.

Boney · Apr 12, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
@Boney, would hunting an apparition with Johann be a viable Web-Mat action? Since he's got battle magic clearance and his master is Gehenna I assume he knows that background involved, and it would be nice to have some backup in case things go bad.

Sure, that makes sense.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 12, 2022

Cool, with that in mind i'll make another call for picking up apparition books this turn. Being able to use a webmat action for it makes it a lot more flexible for fitting into various plans.

Rafin · Apr 12, 2022

Codex said:
Also nice of the crowd to just vibe with the couple no matter how it turns out. Dwarf culture is not nearly as rigid and uncompromising as some might think. It's refreshingly flexible.

They do like to employ a lot of plausible deniability when they deem it to be pro-social and the original intent of traditions is the only thing that vaguely suffers for it.

Boney said:
The full 'council' seems to be of Manhorak and His sons: Bylorak, Fennorak, Darmorak, and Grimorak. General response seems rather confused, but nobody seems all that unhappy about a cult who's really into drowning vampires.

A lot of those names seem like recreations with flimsy basis in local history. But as long as the entities in question are getting renewed worship they should be okay with the Empire's representatives playing silly buggers with their names.

Wodger said:
We should invite some Knights of the Scroll on our book mining expedition to establish a relationship.

I don't think we should. Boney already said that one of the reasons the Colleges wouldn't send anyone to keep an eye on Mathilde there is because that just doubles the Humans coming into contact with dangerous material. And the Knights of the Scroll are among the few Humans that don't just have a known motive to take something they shouldn't, but actually have one they themselves think of as altruistic.

reignonyrparade said:
Honestly seems believable that it's an attempt to fit Manhavok into the paradigm. "Manhorak is the native sylvanian name for Manhavok, and look at how that name matches the naming pattern of what I'm saying are his sons" genuinely sounds like a good way to legitimize the whole project.

Which is not to say that'd even be made up but it's probably the possible reading of things that was deliberately chosen because it sounded the best if that is the case.

If one ascribes to the theory that Manhavok's origin comes from the usage of Zhufbar's Torrent-Gate back in the Golden Age absolutely terrifying the local Humans back then, then physically speaking it makes sense that he is the father of all local wetland, bog and swamp deities.

picklepikkl said:
I've updated the Brief History of the Waystone Project with the notes from our social actions, adding the extra mini-socials as subactions of the wedding. Shame we didn't get to chat with the cult of Taal or a priest of Ranald, but ah well, I'm not unhappy with what we did get.

The one I missed the most was seeing a Vlagian Dwarf attending a traditional Karaz Ankor wedding.

picklepikkl said:
The reason is "sometimes stuff comes up where it's useful to have money, and because of the Vow of Poverty most ways of getting money fast are closed to us, so keeping a rainy-day fund has strategic value." We make 200gc a turn, which is a lot, but which is only two Extensive topics or one Extensive+Antiquarian level topic out of pocket.

We do have a piggy bank. And if money actually becomes a problem passing a vote to access said piggy bank becomes much more palatable.

Andres said:
There aren't that many full magical topics we badly to want to get. Apparitions of course, Forest Spirits since we're working with them in the waystone project, and that's about it.

I can think of one more topic. Hysh. We only have Extensive on that. And it would be useful to read up on if we want to repeat Windherder enchanting with Egrimm. And give a narrative explanation why the second attempt is much better (rolls willing) when the first was such a failure on Mathilde's part. Essentially Mathilde reading some Esoteric stuff and being able to wrap her head around it and how it interferes with her concentration during Ulgu shaping in particular.

Thomasfoolery said:
I mean I obviously can't foresee the future. I can know I'll vote for doing it. But whether it wins who can say.

Honestly though this talk about 100 gold worth of efficiency rings a bit hollow when we're spending 200 gold on incredibly speculative religion probes. So spending on apparitions now to help keep the door open does not seem particularly out of line.

Also, if the other magical topics are of little interest, it would seem to me better to just not take that option and spend library purchases on non magical choices.

It's a question of priorities. Some want to definitely do recruitment actions next turn. Some want to do none and thus anticipate lots of space for self-improvement and research that they care about. What each side wants to purchase right now will reflect that to some extend.

LadyLynn said:
Oh, wait, college books is a library acquisition, which is distinct from a library action. I totally mixed those up, huh.

So then its mainly competing with Backfill, so... then its a question of the role of Backfill for me. Is backfill something we're going to need to do repeatedly in order to turn the Library into a "proper library"? How many books will it add?

I've seen a lot of talk about how Backfill will give the library more legitimacy as a real library, but how much is that actually the case, especially for a singular action?

EDIT: And is backfilling to make our library more "legit" not somewhat redundant when we've got plans for getting a crapton of books from other libraries, which will also give a huge assortment of books on a large variety of topics?

Backfill is the most efficient acquisition of raw books (and +X bonuses) available. It also pays no heed to what we actually need, beyond the fact that it will buy books on topics that we decided would be useful at some point in our career. Like Chemistry or the Ogre Kingdoms. Any time we want something new or specific or Elven we will choose a different option. Same goes for any time we want to be pro-social and buy a topic that would benefit the public but that we have not a single book on yet, like medicine or trade. As I see it, the reason we are choosing Backfill right now is because A) all the specific books we want right now are Bretonnian books (which are not covered by Backfill or any other free acquisition option) and B) because we want to finally see how it works in practice.

veekie said:
Boney clairified. Its both.
We need to demonstrate some results then take care of the orcs occupying their attentions

Boney clarified it's an interest in both, not that both have to happen before there's an interest. The extend of our success also matters. We'd probably need to both help a bit with the Orcs and have some basic results to entice them. But I'm pretty sure that if we single-handedly solve the Khornate Orc problem or have some amazing magical advancement to share that they'd spare some Damsel to contribute even if we neglect the other thing.

LadyLynn said:
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms

Any chance I can get you to replace one of those with books on Hysh? Power Stones maybe? I can't imagine that there even is a lot of literature on that.

Or barring replacement, an approval vote for both?

picklepikkl · Apr 12, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Cool, with that in mind i'll make another call for picking up apparition books this turn. Being able to use a webmat action for it makes it a lot more flexible for fitting into various plans.

That is definitely a very interesting wrinkle that makes it likelier that we go apparition hunting soon. That said, I'm not convinced that next turn is the time to kick off a multi-action chain to enhance our personal combat ability. Maybe after Branarhune is done? Only two actions left on that, and it's the lowest-hanging personal combat fruit because each action gives marginal results, whereas the apparition chain doesn't help us until we finish it (which is at the very least 2 actions -- one to capture and one to bind to our soul with Ulgu -- and possibly more).

Rafin · Apr 12, 2022

[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Hysh, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Hysh
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Trade & Forest Spirits
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Trade & Vaul
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Vaul & Forest Spirits

[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.

Why are we buying extensive books on Bretonnia itself by the way?

Thomasfoolery · Apr 12, 2022

picklepikkl said:
That is definitely a very interesting wrinkle that makes it likelier that we go apparition hunting soon. That said, I'm not convinced that next turn is the time to kick off a multi-action chain to enhance our personal combat ability. Maybe after Branarhune is done? Only two actions left on that, and it's the lowest-hanging personal combat fruit because each action gives marginal results, whereas the apparition chain doesn't help us until we finish it (which is at the very least 2 actions -- one to capture and one to bind to our soul with Ulgu -- and possibly more).

Well, we don't know how apparition binding will work. Will it be more than one action? Likely yes but I wouldn't say that's a guarantee. Especially since the process of capturing involves trying to bind it.

I also have to say I'm not a fan of this theory of purchasing where only if something is guaranteed to be put to use the next turn can it be a valid buy. Rather comes across as a way people against an action use to limit the chance it gets voted for while disguising their intent. Since the same consideration is hardly universally applied.

Burned_Cookie · Apr 12, 2022

Right missed this earlier:

Codex said:
Kasmir's the best Priest of Sigmar we know, which is funny because he doesn't preach Sigmar all that much anymore.

If Okri is half the man that Bardin professes him to be, then he can do all that and more. Okri's power is unlimited as long as he's offscreen.

Also nice of the crowd to just vibe with the couple no matter how it turns out. Dwarf culture is not nearly as rigid and uncompromising as some might think. It's refreshingly flexible.

Kasmir: I´ll just say the Mathilde thing and point out that there may be a chance that those two facts are causally linked

Okri: Maybe we should make him an enchanted item of invisibility then. Watch, or rather dont, as he bootstraps himself into orbital laser stations.

And yea, it´s pretty nice to see that despite all their clinging to tradition, they are willing to fudge things when the traditions as written are just bad. Or maybe this is a pre Ancestor Gods tradition, altered by Valaya. Either way, nice to see.

picklepikkl · Apr 12, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
Well, we don't know how apparition binding will work. Will it be more than one action? Likely yes but I wouldn't say that's a guarantee. Especially since the process of capturing involves trying to bind it.

I also have to say I'm not a fan of this theory of purchasing where only if something is guaranteed to be put to use the next turn can it be a valid buy. Rather comes across as a way people against an action use to limit the chance it gets voted for while disguising their intent. Since the same consideration is hardly universally applied.

We know it's multiple actions from word of Boney. We don't know how many. Could be as few as two, could be more. And I'd prefer not to split our efforts in "get better at winning tough fights" when one option is halfway done *and* each AP we invest gives us immediate usefulness.

In general, I would be fine picking up books speculatively (and have voted that way many times), but since Apparitions is a bare topic in our library it will be more efficient to grab by voting for a Colleges acquisition along with three other topics. I've said already that this is something I would like to do in coming turns. So I want to file this idea away (which is a good one, thank you for having it) and come back to it later.

mathymancer · Apr 12, 2022

picklepikkl said:
That is definitely a very interesting wrinkle that makes it likelier that we go apparition hunting soon. That said, I'm not convinced that next turn is the time to kick off a multi-action chain to enhance our personal combat ability. Maybe after Branarhune is done? Only two actions left on that, and it's the lowest-hanging personal combat fruit because each action gives marginal results, whereas the apparition chain doesn't help us until we finish it (which is at the very least 2 actions -- one to capture and one to bind to our soul with Ulgu -- and possibly more).

Thomasfoolery said:
I also have to say I'm not a fan of this theory of purchasing where only if something is guaranteed to be put to use the next turn can it be a valid buy. Rather comes across as a way people against an action use to limit the chance it gets voted for while disguising their intent. Since the same consideration is hardly universally applied.

As someone who's not voting for us getting books on apparitions and who isn't enthusiastic about apparition binding, I think there's very little reason not to vote for apparition hunting with Johann as a WEB-MAT action as soon as next turn if that's something you're into, even if back-fill wins. A +5 bonus isn't that big a deal, and it won't even necessarily apply: practical stuff (such as actually hunting an apparition) sometimes doesn't get the book bonuses that more theoretical tasks get, like how we didn't get any bonus to developing Branarhune from our books on greatswords. And while I definitely want us to finish Branarhune, swording is a personal action and thus doesn't compete with WEB-MAT actions, so we could advance both next turn.

Rafin · Apr 12, 2022

Reposting this as people are still thinking on which books to purchase. I'll update the list again once this vote is called.

Rafin said:
After removing the ones that since won and adding new ones that lost last turn, we have:

Library of Mourning:
- Geography of Laurelorn
- Beastmen
- Karaz Ankor
- Hoeth
- History of the Old World
- Vaul
- Agriculture

Barak Varr booksellers:
- Faiths of the Old World*
- Medicine
- Tradecraft
- Engineering
- Logistics

Out of pocket:
- Asuryan
- Isha
- Vaul
- Atharti
- Imperial Verena Extensive
- Nordland History & Culture

* I don't know if Faiths of the Old World is fully covered by Minor Gods of the Empire (Extensive and Esoteric) but it might be.

Still, there's quite a few topics on that list that interest me. Mostly Mourning ones (even if that option has the lowest yield). I still want their Beastmen, Hoeth and Vaul books and am at least curious about their take on Dwarf and Human history.

Another thing to note is that, if I understood correctly, Backfill can get us Imperial and Dwarven books for topics where we only have Eonir (or Bretonnian) books, but not the other way around. So it might make sense to from now on do out of pocket purchases from there first, even for mundane subjects.

Based on the above I'll add a few more votes to my voting post.

[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Hysh, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Liminal Realms
[X] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: Apparitions, Power Stones, Forest Spirits, Hysh
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Trade & Forest Spirits
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Trade & Vaul
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Vaul & Forest Spirits
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Hoeth & Forest Spirits
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Hoeth & Vaul
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Beastmen & Forest Spirits
[x] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: Vaul & Beastmen

[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Verena: Extensive Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, Verena: Extensive Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen

[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 12, 2022

picklepikkl said:
We know it's multiple actions from word of Boney. We don't know how many. Could be as few as two, could be more. And I'd prefer not to split our efforts in "get better at winning tough fights" when one option is halfway done *and* each AP we invest gives us immediate usefulness.

Do you happen to remember where they said this? The only thing I remember being stated is we've gone as far as we can without actually getting into the field and trying to cast a binding.

picklepikkl said:
We know it's multiple actions from word of Boney. We don't know how many. Could be as few as two, could be more.

In general, I would be fine picking up books speculatively (and have voted that way many times), but since Apparitions is a bare topic in our library it will be more efficient to grab by voting for a Colleges acquisition along with three other topics. I've said already that this is something I would like to do in coming turns. So I want to file this idea away (which is a good one, thank you for having it) and come back to it later.

This framing does't necessarily add up though. Does back-fill do anything for us next turn? Very likely it does not. Would picking up Apparitions alone this turn stop us from picking up a full four topics using the college option in the future? It would not. So this we can get that done later framing, just seems like delaying something you're not interested in (fair enough) while framing it in a way as if it's the only reasonable thing to do, and of course it'll happen eventually when the time is right (This is the part I take issue with).

mathymancer said:
As someone who's not voting for us getting books on apparitions and who isn't enthusiastic about apparition binding, I think there's very little reason not to vote for apparition hunting with Johann as a WEB-MAT action as soon as next turn if that's something you're into, even if back-fill wins. A +5 bonus isn't that big a deal, and it won't even necessarily apply: practical stuff (such as actually hunting an apparition) sometimes doesn't get the book bonuses that more theoretical tasks get, like how we didn't get any bonus to developing Branarhune from our books on greatswords. And while I definitely want us to finish Branarhune, swording is a personal action and thus doesn't compete with WEB-MAT actions, so we could advance both next turn.

I mean, I'm still going to vote for it. I just expect i'll be hearing people say "But we don't have books" as an argument against it.

mathymancer · Apr 12, 2022

Thomasfoolery said:
I mean, I'm still going to vote for it. I just expect i'll be hearing people say "But we don't have books" as an argument against it.

Well, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's fair to characterize those pushing for back-fill as being part of the anti-apparition conspiracy, since we've been talking about back-fill for a while now. For what it's worth I think I'll approval vote for a variant of my preferred turn plan with Johann apparition hunting, even though I'm personally not really into the apparition thing.

Andres · Apr 12, 2022

Rafin said:
I can think of one more topic. Hysh. We only have Extensive on that. And it would be useful to read up on if we want to repeat Windherder enchanting with Egrimm. And give a narrative explanation why the second attempt is much better (rolls willing) when the first was such a failure on Mathilde's part. Essentially Mathilde reading some Esoteric stuff and being able to wrap her head around it and how it interferes with her concentration during Ulgu shaping in particular.

By 'full' I was talking about topics we have no books on whatsoever. Because we have books on Hysh already, it's disqualified from that. There are multiple non-full magical topics we want.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 12, 2022

mathymancer said:
Well, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's fair to characterize those pushing for back-fill as being part of the anti-apparition conspiracy, since we've been talking about back-fill for a while now. For what it's worth I think I'll approval vote for a variant of my preferred turn plan with Johann apparition hunting, even though I'm personally not really into the apparition thing.

I wasn't trying to paint with such a wide brush, if people aren't interested in something and don't vote for it. That's not an issue, it's when specific claims that its not reasonable to vote for something for x,y,z reasons that come across as flimsy to me are made that it's irritating.

Dragonofelder · Apr 12, 2022

Question: Does does apparition hunting help WEB-MAT? It's been a while, can't remember what it does for us.

Also wow, we have a lot of balls in the air. WEB-MAT, The Waystone Project, KAU... I'm worried we won't have enough actions per turn to get it all done.

Any chance we can learn Shadow Clone Jutsu or similar?

Zero Gravitas · Apr 12, 2022

Dragonofelder said:
Question: Does does apparition hunting help WEB-MAT? It's been a while, can't remember what it does for us.

Also wow, we have a lot of balls in the air. WEB-MAT, The Waystone Project, KAU... I'm worried we won't have enough actions per turn to get it all done.

WEB-MAT is tied into the Waystone Project. We basically have WEB-MAT and KAU.

Dragonofelder · Apr 12, 2022

Zero Gravitas said:
WEB-MAT is tied into the Waystone Project. We basically have WEB-MAT and KAU.

It might be a sub-section, but it's a pretty big & important section.

Mopman43 · Apr 12, 2022

Dragonofelder said:
Question: Does does apparition hunting help WEB-MAT? It's been a while, can't remember what it does for us.

Also wow, we have a lot of balls in the air. WEB-MAT, The Waystone Project, KAU... I'm worried we won't have enough actions per turn to get it all done.

Any chance we can learn Shadow Clone Jutsu or similar?

There's a Chaos mutation that makes a permanent clone.

Otherwise, no.

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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