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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres said:
@Boney, aside from the Phoenix Crown, do the dwarves have any looted Qhaysh artefacts from the War of Vengeance we can borrow to do AV experiments with? Actually, do they have any looted elven magical items we can use in general?
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Boney said:
If they've still got them after four thousand years, it'd be because they don't lend them out to anyone that asks.
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You know, if Mathilde was more Elf-aligned than Dwarf, I feel like the thread would be pushing for stealing the Phoenix Crown. Because why not, yanno?
Valmond said:
NDA's are not magically binding, and people will talk, eventually.
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If the Grey "Locking-Knowledge-Inside-People's-Brains-Until-They-Need-It" order doesn't have magically binding contracts, I'll eat my hat.
 
Valmond said:
NDA's are not magically binding, and people will talk, eventually.
And the Gold ORder kept the secret for a reason, and only allowed it to spread to a trusted LAdy MAgister who promised to never reveal the source of her knowledge and pretend it was all hers for a reason.
I see no reason why we should then start spreading information about the technique to other orders randomly.
Let's make the spell, see if it works, and then see what Algard and rest of the Grey LM's think about it before we go yelling everyone we decided to bind warp entities into our soul.
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I had meant to type Can't not Can there. I wasn't suggesting we should go around broadcasting it.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I had meant to type Can't not Can there. I wasn't suggesting we should go around broadcasting it.
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I read it as can't, so my points remain in effect.
Telling it to one person not already in on the secret means it is now in the wild.
We might be able to mindhole them, but we would need to do constantly and i'm worried of potential side effects.
 
Valmond said:
I read it as can't, so my points remain in effect.
Telling it to one person not already in on the secret means it is now in the wild.
We might be able to mindhole them, but we would need to do constantly and i'm worried of potential side effects.
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If you read it like that where are you getting the idea I want to tell people about it then? I was responding to Picklepikkl who was saying since it was a secret it didn't count. My point was that it didn't matter that it was a secret.
 
Inescapable Bindings of Duty is a ritual that can force a person who has broken a vow, or even intends to break a vow, to carry it out in both letter and spirit. The oath can be sworn under duress. It's not the sort of thing that's done lightly, but it is an example of the kinds of stuff magic can do to compel individuals to keep a promise.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
If you read it like that where are you getting the idea I want to tell people about it then? I was responding to Picklepikkl who was saying since it was a secret it didn't count. My point was that it didn't matter that it was a secret.
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From that you were objecting to Pickle saying we can't tell anyone about the secret?
And because of that using web-mat (except with already in on the secret people) is not an option.

Boney said:
Mindhole isn't selective. It deletes all of the target's memories of the caster and nothing else.
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Would that mean the hypothetical research wizard would remember all the research, just not who they did the research with?
 
Valmond said:
Would that mean the hypothetical research wizard would remember all the research, just not who they did the research with?
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They'll forget Mathilde telling them that, but not later actions or research they may have performed based on that knowledge. Which may mean that they are able to fully remember the information or it may mean they will forever have a gaping hole in their memory that they're unable to reconcile and will lead them to doubt their own sanity.
 
Valmond said:
From that you were objecting to Pickle saying we can't tell anyone about the secret?
And because of that using web-mat (except with already in on the secret people) is not an option.
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WEBMAT as a branch college was made with the purpose of pursuing cross disciplinary cooperation, which this clearly is. That was my point when I objected to Pickle saying it does nothing to help WEBMAT, it's clearly in line with its charter. It's not something we can put on the metaphorical website to draw in further partners. But it gives a useful end product as a result of a partnership, and some institutional knowledge about paradigm translation.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
WEBMAT as a branch college was made with the purpose of pursuing cross disciplinary cooperation, which this clearly is. That was my point when I objected to Pickle saying it does nothing to help WEBMAT, it's clearly in line with its charter. It's not something we can put on the metaphorical website to draw in further partners. But it gives a useful end product as a result of a partnership, and some institutional knowledge about paradigm translation.
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Yeah, Boney's point about how it gives the Greys reason to track down bogeymen hunting other Colleges was a good one, which I had not considered, and definitely makes it part of our mission statement. I believe the two leading contenders for "which apparition do we get" are Handmaidens (if we want an assassin in a can) and Riders in Red (if we want muscle): Handmaidens prey on Golds and Celestials, while Riders in Red prey on Brights.

I still don't think that we should be prioritizing it in the near-term, because it's a multi-AP project (especially if we want to reap those interdisciplinary rewards by codifying and publishing the methods we used), Branarhune is lower-hanging fruit, and we've got a perennial problem with splitting our efforts among multiple projects and progressing none of them as quickly as people would like, but I definitely do want to do it as our next self-improvement project post-Branarhune.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
WEBMAT as a branch college was made with the purpose of pursuing cross disciplinary cooperation, which this clearly is. That was my point when I objected to Pickle saying it does nothing to help WEBMAT, it's clearly in line with its charter. It's not something we can put on the metaphorical website to draw in further partners. But it gives a useful end product as a result of a partnership, and some institutional knowledge about paradigm translation.
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How does it do that when we can't share the info with anyone?
Because that was my point.
It is a secret for a reason, and unless you are willing to gamble on mindhole, doing it with WEBMAT means telling other people, who will now have knowledge Gold Order kept secret for a reason.
Sure, in theory this is exactly what WEBMAT is for, Gold ORder gave us information, and we use it to develope something new, or atleast a new version of something old.
But in practice we can't tell Gold Order was involved, and involving anyone else means we almost have to tell them things that were kept secret for a good reason.

You could do this without breaking the promise, maybe, not sure i would want to rules lawyer that or risk anyone asking awkward questions (finished product is lot easier to build a fake trail for), but personally i would rather not.
 
Valmond said:
How does it do that when we can't share the info with anyone?
Because that was my point.
It is a secret for a reason, and unless you are willing to gamble on mindhole, doing it with WEBMAT means telling other people, who will now have knowledge Gold Order kept secret for a reason.
Sure, in theory this is exactly what WEBMAT is for, Gold ORder gave us information, and we use it to develope something new, or atleast a new version of something old.
But in practice we can't tell Gold Order was involved, and involving anyone else means we almost have to tell them things that were kept secret for a good reason.

You could do this without breaking the promise, maybe, not sure i would want to rules lawyer that or risk anyone asking awkward questions (finished product is lot easier to build a fake trail for), but personally i would rather not.
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At this point I feel like you've circled back to Pickle's starting point. Which is exactly what my post you initially responded to was about. If you don't agree that projects that we can't tell other people about don't have the possibility of advancing WEBMAT as an institution, well then that's your position and I've already made my stance on it clear.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
At this point I feel like you've circled back to Pickle's starting point. Which is exactly what my post you initially responded to was about. If you don't agree that projects that we can't tell other people about don't have the possibility of advancing WEBMAT as an institution, well that's you position and I've already made my stance on it clear.
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How would a project we can't tell anyone about advance WEBMAT?
No, seriously, how?
I no longer have any idea what your stance is.
 
picklepikkl said:
It's true that there's a BOGO opportunity if we recruit Adela. I'm just resistant to the notion of using personal AP for 2 personal improvement actions and 0 of the research actions we can't use WEB-MAT to progress, like AV testing or studying the Ghyran Nut with Panoramia. I know we need to climb the personal power curve, but I like Mathilde nerding out about stuff, and we let our personal research languish for IC years while we prepped for Dum, so I dig in my heels about putting multiple AP towards personal improvement and zero AP towards personal research or other goals that can only be accomplished with non-WEBMAT AP.

I've got new plan drafts, but I don't want to suck the oxygen out of the room when it comes to discussing the current, actual vote by posting them, though maybe that ship has already sailed. Sigh.
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I have some disagreements with what you say here, but I should probably leave the defence of apparition binding to those who are actually passionate about that. And your point about not distracting from the current vote is well taken, so we can pick this up later when we actually get to the next turn plan vote.
LadyLynn said:
I think this is a good point about book bonuses, but I think in the case of apparitions the book bonus probably will be relevant. We're not just hunting an apparition, we want to trap it so we can bind it later. And for that, I think knowledge of how the apparition works is going to be very helpful.
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Mm, you have a point there. It's still not a huge bonus so I don't think it should be the deciding factor, but I think that you are right that it will apply to at least one of the relevant rolls.
 
SpaceSloth said:
Speaking of Branarhune, is there someone we want to mentor us?
I was thinking that we could ask Kadoh.
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We can't get someone to mentor us in a style we are in the process of creating the techniques for from scratch. Or, rather, going from the last time we took the Branarhune action, we can, but it requires a crit. Here are some citations to that effect:
TotallyNotEvil said:
@BoneyM Would getting tutors/sparring partners help with creating the sword style? Anyone particularly useful in that vein that we can think of?
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Boney said:
There are no tutors for a thing that does not yet exist.
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Wouldn't skilled sparring partners help us refine it a lot easier?

I thought we could get help brainstorming and testing moves.
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Boney said:
Not without having a very high chance of giving them a cannonball. Branulhune can be turned 'off' but not while flickering the Rune of the Unknown.
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mathymancer said:
Mm, you have a point there. It's still not a huge bonus so I don't think it should be the deciding factor, but I think that you are right that it will apply to at least one of the relevant rolls.
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I think I've been convinced that there's enough of a chance that people will want to do it that I'll approval vote the books, just so in case we decide to do it we aren't missing out on the narrative benefits from the books (even if the actual numbers involved are low).

[X] [LIBRARY] Back-fill.
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
 
picklepikkl said:
We can't get someone to mentor us in a style we are in the process of creating the techniques for from scratch. Or, rather, going from the last time we took the Branarhune action, we can, but it requires a crit. Here are some citations to that effect:





I think I've been convinced that there's enough of a chance that people will want to do it that I'll approval vote the books, just so in case we decide to do it we aren't missing out on the narrative benefits from the books (even if the actual numbers involved are low).

[X] [LIBRARY] Back-fill.
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.
[X] [COLLEGE] No purchase.
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
[X] [PURCHASE] The Lady: Extensive Bretonnian, Shallya: Extensive Bretonnian, The Kingdom Of Bretonnia: Extensive Bretonnian, Trade: Extensive Eonir, Apparitions: Extensive and Esoteric Imperial, A dwarven axe for Baba Brzeginias/Gerdouen
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Admittedly, we did have a tutor for the quick-draw.

So I think it'd mostly be a matter of if there's any extant style that would have insights relevant to the remaining Branurhune aspects.
 
Mopman43 said:
Admittedly, we did have a tutor for the quick-draw.
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picklepikkl said:
We can't get someone to mentor us in a style we are in the process of creating the techniques for from scratch. Or, rather, going from the last time we took the Branarhune action, we can, but it requires a crit.
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Boney said:
[Developing the quick-draw: Martial, 97+23-10(Overwork)=110.]
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It's something that seems like it can happen, but not something we can deliberately seek out.
 
Mathilde theoretically can get help with developing individual aspects of Branarhune it when that individual aspect can incorporate already-existing elements from elsewhere, but in that case it's something that she'll do automatically and there's no need for the thread to try to micromanage. What she can't get is someone to work alongside her in developing the entire style, because the base of it is half Greatsword and half Gazul Templar and she is literally the only person in the world who has that combination of styles, because it depends on a combination of runes that literally no other sword but hers has, and because you can't safely spar with Branulhune without deactivating the Runes Mathilde's style is trying to take advantage of.
 
Valmond said:
How does it do that when we can't share the info with anyone?
Because that was my point.
It is a secret for a reason, and unless you are willing to gamble on mindhole, doing it with WEBMAT means telling other people, who will now have knowledge Gold Order kept secret for a reason.
Sure, in theory this is exactly what WEBMAT is for, Gold ORder gave us information, and we use it to develope something new, or atleast a new version of something old.
But in practice we can't tell Gold Order was involved, and involving anyone else means we almost have to tell them things that were kept secret for a good reason.

You could do this without breaking the promise, maybe, not sure i would want to rules lawyer that or risk anyone asking awkward questions (finished product is lot easier to build a fake trail for), but personally i would rather not.
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The Gold Order keeps this stuff secret because they don't want the world to know that they are binding Apparitions to their souls. If Mathilde is willing to claim that she found a way to bind Apparitions to her soul in front of others, she is free to share the how of it as much as she wants. It wouldn't be wise, but it wouldn't be a breach of trust with the Golds either.
Of course for her to do that she first has to be able to actually do it. Because "I invented a way to bind Apparitions to my soul that is very likely to work even though I've never actually done it" isn't something that would fly. But once we do we can attempt to help other Colleges that haven't done so to make their own versions. Though it might be politic to first ask Algard if he's okay with the Grey College becoming known as Apparition binders.
 
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Oh, the agonies of being such a goddamn special snowflake that we cannot safely spar with anyone in our Master Sword Style because it's designed around a single function that gets deactivated along with the lethal stuff, and we cannot teach anyone our style because no one else has a sword with our functionality. I suppose we just have to content ourselves with murdering our enemies with a degree of efficiency rarely seen.
 
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