Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[BurnNote]

Grey College Apprentice Training: Endorsed by the EIC!
100% of Directors polled wouldn't send their heirs anywhere else.

I can imagine Wilhelminas scorn at the prospect of paying that much for a custom-built dwelling when the Colleges have already got it set up.

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It helps avoid Divided Loyalties. It's not such a problem for Wilhelmina because she's already cloesly aligned with the Grey Order. If anything, it allows further uniting the interests of two major factions in the EIC.
But everyone else would rightly assume that someone isolated and trained for years in the Colleges has at least split loyalties.

 

[veekie]

From me. The other traditions currently exist only in broad strokes. I've got a bunch of reference books on IRL mystic and magical traditions that I'll dip into as needed, like I did for the Lights and Jades.



A bit of both. A College could theoretically ward an entire building, but warding a single room is a solved problem, warding an entire building isn't, especially if you want it to appear normal on the outside and not have drastic effects on the mental states of non-Wizards who live there. So the entire design needs to be custom-made from the ground up and the expense and expertise needed very quickly becomes silly when, the Wizard explains once more, there's already an extremely well-warded building for teaching waiting for the prospective student in Altdorf.

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Sounds like the cycle for a particularly stubborn noble would be:
1) Noble asks to have home tutoring, they'd pay for a Magister to stay around for the whole period. They can afford it.

2) Explained that they need a single wind environment to avoid going insane and that they must stay in that area for the entire apprenticeship.

3) Noble invariably tries to hire for the environment for an entire manor.

4) The quotation for creating and maintaining it makes them spit blood(not that the Colleges are actually willing to go to the effort, but its easier to show them the projected price than give them a hard no).

5) Haggles down to a single room, which is expensive but within the means of the elite.

6) The child in question either starts going stircrazy from being locked in a single room for years, or starts being let out and actually starts going crazy from Dhar.

7) Taken to the Colleges or the noose, depending on which.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

A bit of both. A College could theoretically ward an entire building, but warding a single room is a solved problem, warding an entire building isn't, especially if you want it to appear normal on the outside and not have drastic effects on the mental states of non-Wizards who live there. So the entire design needs to be custom-made from the ground up and the expense and expertise needed very quickly becomes silly when, the Wizard explains once more, there's already an extremely well-warded building for teaching waiting for the prospective student in Altdorf.

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So effectively there's a handful of people who could afford it (and considering the scarcity of wizards it is likely none of them needed to do it) and they'd be paying a ton of money for a strictly inferior experience to the Colleges (particularly since the best teachers would be in Altdorf anyways).

Hmm... the thought strikes me that the best place to put a mono-wind building would be Altdorf itself; since the cost of warding a building would be lowered due to proximity to the Colleges and the best teachers would be there.

It'd still be an extremely expensive and cumbersome endeavour but Elector Count or just under EC tier families or Tilean princes whose offspring turned out to be a wizard could potentially go for it? Either that or 'bribe' the College an enormous amount of money for extra considerations on campus (personal tutoring, better quarters and such) - not all Colleges would go for it (Amethysts certainly wouldn't; Greys probably wouldn't in ordinary circumstances) but some Colleges seem to be more inclined to accept such arrangements.

Then again not sure how much extra tutoring would appear needful since the Colleges already seem to be providing an excellent level of education for would be wizards (and the accommodations are probably good enough by in WH standards that they're acceptable at least for a few years of roughing off even to the children of most nobility).

 

[Alliterate]

Mathildes' School of Magical Construction for Status-Conscious Nobility

"So you want to ensure your Wind-sensitive family member doesn't go insane?
Well that's fine indeed. An old kind of waste for a new time."
"But most of you will go bankrupt before, like, completing a wing, so I'll get to the point."
"Your best bet is to have an unreasonably rich yet somehow still indebted Dwarven King ready to bankroll your most fanciful whim.
That works for me, so that's my advice."
"Oh, and try to make sure you've got not one but two Runelords on call, in case one is busy with the fallout from your latest shenanigans."
"But what do you do if you're a petty noble for whom keeping up appearances is everything?"
"Spending money not on books or awesome towers? That's a bad investment, plus it's auditable.
Utonki Weber, favourite of my King, that's what I am, stick to that."
"I hope this was helpful."

 

[Artemis1992]

So effectively there's a handful of people who could afford it (and considering the scarcity of wizards it is likely none of them needed to do it) and they'd be paying a ton of money for a strictly inferior experience to the Colleges (particularly since the best teachers would be in Altdorf anyways).

Hmm... the thought strikes me that the best place to put a mono-wind building would be Altdorf itself; since the cost of warding a building would be lowered due to proximity to the Colleges and the best teachers would be there.

It'd still be an extremely expensive and cumbersome endeavour but Elector Count or just under EC tier families or Tilean princes whose offspring turned out to be a wizard could potentially go for it? Either that or 'bribe' the College an enormous amount of money for extra considerations on campus (personal tutoring, better quarters and such) - not all Colleges would go for it (Amethysts certainly wouldn't; Greys probably wouldn't in ordinary circumstances) but some Colleges seem to be more inclined to accept such arrangements.

Then again not sure how much extra tutoring would appear needful since the Colleges already seem to be providing an excellent level of education for would be wizards (and the accommodations are probably good enough by in WH standards that they're acceptable at least for a few years of roughing off even to the children of most nobility).

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But if you send your child to Altdorf to learn magic anyway, why spend insane sums of money on a seperate building, when the College is right there?

 

[VoiceOfTheRiders]

So effectively there's a handful of people who could afford it (and considering the scarcity of wizards it is likely none of them needed to do it) and they'd be paying a ton of money for a strictly inferior experience to the Colleges (particularly since the best teachers would be in Altdorf anyways).

Hmm... the thought strikes me that the best place to put a mono-wind building would be Altdorf itself; since the cost of warding a building would be lowered due to proximity to the Colleges and the best teachers would be there.

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There are mono wind buildings in Aldorf. They happen to be called the Colleges of Magic.

 

[veekie]

So effectively there's a handful of people who could afford it (and considering the scarcity of wizards it is likely none of them needed to do it) and they'd be paying a ton of money for a strictly inferior experience to the Colleges (particularly since the best teachers would be in Altdorf anyways).

Hmm... the thought strikes me that the best place to put a mono-wind building would be Altdorf itself; since the cost of warding a building would be lowered due to proximity to the Colleges and the best teachers would be there.

It'd still be an extremely expensive and cumbersome endeavour but Elector Count or just under EC tier families or Tilean princes whose offspring turned out to be a wizard could potentially go for it? Either that or 'bribe' the College an enormous amount of money for extra considerations on campus (personal tutoring, better quarters and such) - not all Colleges would go for it (Amethysts certainly wouldn't; Greys probably wouldn't in ordinary circumstances) but some Colleges seem to be more inclined to accept such arrangements.

Then again not sure how much extra tutoring would appear needful since the Colleges already seem to be providing an excellent level of education for would be wizards (and the accommodations are probably good enough by in WH standards that they're acceptable at least for a few years of roughing off even to the children of most nobility).

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Keep scale and speed of work in mind. Making one room contain a Wind is relatively easy, using affinity materials to make all surfaces, fill it only with Wind resonant objects, a Powerstone to generate/attract the Wind, and some enchantment work to keep other Winds out.

Making a whole building is another matter entirely. The number of openings and leaks explode in number, you'd basically have to build the whole structure out of exotics, and find workarounds for things like cooking fires, and such factors drawing in other Winds.

And you need to do all that in a very short time because the would-be Apprentice has no ability to stop drawing on the Winds.

And after you go to all that effort...how long would someone privileged enough to afford it be willing to stay inside one building for the next five to ten years?
After Covid I imagine just about everyone is familiar with some degree of lockdown. Whats the odds of someone who wants an exception to being taken to the Colleges actually sticking to the building?

 

[matvprok]

From me. The other traditions currently exist only in broad strokes. I've got a bunch of reference books on IRL mystic and magical traditions that I'll dip into as needed, like I did for the Lights and Jades.

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By the way is there any pre-Teclisean tradition behind Bright Order at all? They are only ones lacking obvious predecessors, since we know Greys have some (though mnor in influence) Hedgewise roots. Only part of Elementalists comes to mind as candidate.

 

[Codex]

By the way is there any pre-Teclisean tradition behind Bright Order at all? They are only ones lacking obvious predecessors, since we know Greys have some (though mnor in influence) Hedgewise roots. Only part of Elementalists comes to mind as candidate.

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Not a tradition, but the most famous first generation Bright Wizard is Friedrich Von Tarnus, first Patriarch of the Bright College. He was an amazing enchanter and made the Emperor's Silver Seal, the Staff of Volans and Armor of Von Tarnus, which is an armor that mages can wear without it interfering with their spells.

He came from the Carroburg Greatswords, a well known and famous Reiklander military regiment.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

But if you send your child to Altdorf to learn magic anyway, why spend insane sums of money on a seperate building, when the College is right there?

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It certainly wouldn't be cheap and efficient but it isn't like the upper nobility necessarily values things getting done cheaply and efficiently. Sure some do but it is by no means universal or Dieter wouldn't have been such a popular figure.

 

[Codex]

It certainly wouldn't be cheap and efficient but it isn't like the upper nobility necessarily values things getting done cheaply and efficiently. Sure some do but it is by no means universal or Dieter wouldn't have been such a popular figure.

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Dieter was never popular, people voted for him because his dad was Emperor, and he was very, very bribable. You gave him money and he would give you what you want. That also led to the outrage that kicked him out of his position.

 

[Boney]

By the way is there any pre-Teclisean tradition behind Bright Order at all? They are only ones lacking obvious predecessors, since we know Greys have some (though mnor in influence) Hedgewise roots. Only part of Elementalists comes to mind as candidate.

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They've got a fairly intricate set of internal rankings complete with a pretty involved set of key symbology that heavily suggests something is up, though it's possible the entire thing was invented by the first Patriarch of the Brights and certified genius Von Tarnus, who as a military man would have appreciated the value of structure and hierarchy and symbols. Also possibly of interest is their weirdly intense institutional dislike of the Cult of Manann. But the Bright Wizards don't seem to appreciate attempts to pry into the history of their inner beliefs, and when a Bright Wizard starts getting peeved and tells an inquirer to butt out, the path of wisdom is to butt right the hell out.

 

[Codex]

They've got a fairly intricate set of internal rankings complete with a pretty involved set of key symbology that heavily suggests something is up, though it's possible the entire thing was invented by the first Patriarch of the Brights and certified genius Von Tarnus, who as a military man would have appreciated the value of structure and hierarchy and symbols. Also possibly of interest is their weirdly intense institutional dislike of the Cult of Manann. But the Bright Wizards don't seem to appreciate attempts to pry into the history of their inner beliefs, and when a Bright Wizard starts getting peeved and tells an inquirer to butt out, the path of wisdom is to butt right the hell out.

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I'm assuming you're referring to page 71 of Realms of Sorcery 2E?

"The Bright Order: While it often provides Battle Wizards for the Imperial forces, this has curried little favour for the Bright Order—even with the Cult of Sigmar. Relations with those of Mannan are positively awful as it has been claimed that the patriarch of the Bright Order referred to the Sea Lord as "a watery, damp squib of a little God." "

I have to say. Watery, damp squib of a little god is a frankly hilarious insult.

 

[Lampshade]

Also possibly of interest is their weirdly intense institutional dislike of the Cult of Manann.

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The obvious implication is elementalists, but the start of the Colleges aligns with the destruction of the Fire Spire historically IIRC, so maybe we got some survivors of the cult of Dazh? Could we covertly support its revival?

After all, we've seen divine siblings hampered by bickering . . . . but three is peace.

 

[Boney]

I'm assuming you're referring to page 71 of Realms of Sorcery 2E?

"The Bright Order: While it often provides Battle Wizards for the Imperial forces, this has curried little favour for the Bright Order—even with the Cult of Sigmar. Relations with those of Mannan are positively awful as it has been claimed that the patriarch of the Bright Order referred to the Sea Lord as "a watery, damp squib of a little God." "

I have to say. Watery, damp squib of a little god is a frankly hilarious insult.

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Yeah, it might just be a joke about Bright Wizards being impulsive, but this would be consummate politician Thyrus Gormann, former Supreme Patriarch and long time confidant to the Emperor. He's got a temper so I could see him dissing the High Priest of Manann at a party or whatever, but it seems way out of proportion for him to lay that level of smack talk on an actual literal God unless there's more there than a flash of temper involved.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Dieter was never popular, people voted for him because his dad was Emperor, and he was very, very bribable. You gave him money and he would give you what you want. That also led to the outrage that kicked him out of his position.

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He was extremely popular amongst people with lots of money who liked bribing others and only got deposed when he got bribed by Marienburg; making the extremely strategically placed city independent.

Boris Goldgather and Ludwig the Fat got elected for the similar reasons in the pre-Mandred the Skavenslayer era - sure they're not well viewed by history but rich nobles really liked the fact that they could be bribed.

 

[Codex]

He was extremely popular amongst people with lots of money who liked bribing others and only got deposed when he got bribed by Marienburg; making the extremely strategically placed city independent.

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I have never received the impression that he was of any sort "extremely popular". Yes certain people liked that he could be bribed, but he was stupid as hell and he emptied the Empire's coffers to fund expeditions into the Border Princes which left the Empire defenceless during the Grom invasion, and then he ran as far away as he could when Grom came knocking. Grom's invasion was the first mark that Wilhelm III placed on the nation by coordinating war efforts against Grom while Dieter cowered in his boots. Dieter remained in power for a full 14 years after Grom's invasion.

You cannot tell me that this guy was "extremely popular". Tolerated by the upper class, sure, but people would have torn him apart if he came out of his palace.

 

[K von Carstein]

Didn't he also gave independence to Marienburg? Or was it another emperor?

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I have never received the impression that he was of any sort "extremely popular". Yes certain people liked that he could be bribed, but he was stupid as hell and he emptied the Empire's coffers to fund expeditions into the Border Princes which left the Empire defenceless during the Grom invasion, and then he ran as far away as he could when Grom came knocking. Grom's invasion was the first mark that Wilhelm III placed on the nation by coordinating war efforts against Grom while Dieter cowered in his boots. Dieter remained in power for a full 14 years after Grom's invasion.

You cannot tell me that this guy was "extremely popular". Tolerated by the upper class, sure, but people would have torn him apart if he came out of his palace.

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It says a lot about Grey College restraint that he didn't just die one day; but yeah, I'll clarify my point - he was reasonably popular amongst the upper class for being open to bribes despite being otherwise entirely incompetent.

Didn't he also gave independence to Marienburg? Or was it another emperor?

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Yes, that's what got him deposed.

 

[Codex]

Didn't he also gave independence to Marienburg? Or was it another emperor?

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Yes he was the one who did that. It got him kicked out of his position. He still somehow managed to get estates in Talabecland and stayed a big shot there and you know the rest, since we did help his family just recently.

 

[Mopman43]

The obvious implication is elementalists, but the start of the Colleges aligns with the destruction of the Fire Spire historically IIRC, so maybe we got some survivors of the cult of Dazh? Could we covertly support its revival?

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The Cult of Dazh still exists (though Boris has complained that it's filled with unworthy individuals).

I don't think they had anything to do with the Fire Spire either.


If the Bright College was linked to the Cult of Dazh, there'd be a lot more sunlight imagery and gold everywhere- there's more signs of that from the Lights than the Brights.

 

[Lampshade]

I don't think they had anything to do with the Fire Spire either.

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But in this world, Fire Spire was ruined and never rebuilt. In this world, every true servant of the Bear and the Flame and the Thunder died in Praag, and now thieves and cowards choke their temples. ... "In this world, when horse and steel is not enough, Winter is all we have left."

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I thought the implication in the quoted part was that the end of the Fire Spire and the downfall of the cults were somewhat linked if not outright synonymous.

A dark transformation on top would be thematically fitting, both as "No more mister nice Dazh" and as a reminder of failure and exile.

Or maybe the end result of their imagery is an average between Dazh and Hashut.

 

[Mopman43]

I thought the implication in the quoted part was that the end of the Fire Spire and the downfall of the cults were somewhat linked if not outright synonymous.

A dark transformation on top would be thematically fitting, both as "No more mister nice Dazh" and as a reminder of failure and exile.

Or maybe the end result of their imagery is an average between Dazh and Hashut.

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I would think that's just about the Siege of Pragg in general, not about the Fire Spire in particular.

 

[Codex]

I thought the implication in the quoted part was that the end of the Fire Spire and the downfall of the cults were somewhat linked if not outright synonymous.

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The reason they're linked is because the downfall of both was the result of Asavar Kul's invasion of Kislev. He killed a lot of Kislevites and destroyed Praag, and Kislev City was besieged and on the verge of defeat.

 

[Lampshade]

I would think that's just about the Siege of Pragg in general, not about the Fire Spire in particular.

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The reason they're linked is because the downfall of both was the result of Asavar Kul's invasion of Kislev.

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While that is obviously the overarching event, the fact that Boris mentions them immediately next to each other nevertheless implies a deeper connection than just general vicinity, at least that's how I read that.