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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Hmm, even with taking into account the factors of her age varying or her coming from a bloodline attuned to the Winds of magic to explain her deep attunement to the Wind of Death, there are several factors of Elspeth Von Draken background which I find to be interesting in how they influenced her development into what she is today. Such as how for example she came to such a close relationship with the Carmine Dragon that she is allowed to ride them or exactly to what extent has her possession and possible studies on the ashes of a dead God lead her too being what she is or other factors I am unaware off.
 
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Huh. Oh wow. According to the Empire Rulebook, the Imperial Dragon has the exact same stats as a Moon Dragon from Ulthuan.

In DL, the Imperial Dragon is pretty young. He was apparently hatched by Dragomas, which gave him his position as Amber Patriarch. Somehow, within less than a 100 years, the Imperial Dragon goes from baby dragon to Moon Dragon.

That's a fast growing Dragon.
 
Codex said:
Huh. Oh wow. According to the Empire Rulebook, the Imperial Dragon has the exact same stats as a Moon Dragon from Ulthuan.

In DL, the Imperial Dragon is pretty young. He was apparently hatched by Dragomas, which gave him his position as Amber Patriarch. Somehow, within less than a 100 years, the Imperial Dragon goes from baby dragon to Moon Dragon.

That's a fast growing Dragon.
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That is very fast. Is that normal for Dragons? Do we have any idea how long it traditionally takes for a Dragon to develop to be a moon Dragon? Speculatively, could they have relatively short juvenile periods and rapidly develop relatively speaking to the levels of a Moon Dragon, in which then each stage of development further on, from Moon Dragon to Star Dragon takes increasing amount of time? Due to needing more resources or some other factor?
 
Dheer said:
That is very fast. Is that normal for Dragons? Do we have any idea how long it traditionally takes for a Dragon to develop to be a moon Dragon? Speculatively, could be they have relatively short juvenile periods and rapidly relatively speaking to the levels of a Moon Dragon, in which then each stage of development, from Moon Dragon to Star Dragon taking increasing amount of time? Due to needing more resources or some other factor?
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I think the Imperial Dragon is probably not a normal Dragon. In Ulthuan the Dragons sleep within the Dragon Spine Mountains and can only be woken by a specific ritual by a worthy individual, and it is considered a great honor and amazing achievement to wake a Dragon, much less ride one.

The Imperial Dragon in the Imperial Zoo can only be ridden by Karl Franz, but that's not because he's always sleeping and needs a special ritual to wake him. The Imperial Dragon simply refuses to let anyone else ride him. Only Karl Franz is deemed worthy. The fluff surrounding the Dragons seems to be different. Also, it is said that the Imperial Dragon was found deep within the Black Mountains, so it's possible he diverged from the Ulthuan Dragons to an extent as a form of adaptation to the world or something.
 
Codex said:
I'd like to remind you that Drak means Dragon, and she rides a Dragon. It can be as simple as that. Warhammer has plenty of Drak stuff, because Dragons are very popular in fantasy settings. Her name being Draken isn't a strong enough connection for that.
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Sure but there is also the fact that she is a creepy person of indeterminate age attuned to the Wind of Death. Not saying I'm sure there is a connection but there might be, maybe not even of the main line, perhaps bastard or a cadet line and it would have nice symmetry for the Empire's premier Not!Necromacer to be from Sylvania.
 
Codex said:
I think the Imperial Dragon is probably not a normal Dragon. In Ulthuan the Dragons sleep within the Dragon Spine Mountains and can only be woken by a specific ritual by a worthy individual, and it is considered a great honor and amazing achievement to wake a Dragon, much less ride one.

The Imperial Dragon in the Imperial Zoo can only be ridden by Karl Franz, but that's not because he's always sleeping and needs a special ritual to wake him. The Imperial Dragon simply refuses to let anyone else ride him. Only Karl Franz is deemed worthy. The fluff surrounding the Dragons seems to be different. Also, it is said that the Imperial Dragon was found deep within the Black Mountains, so it's possible he diverged from the Ulthuan Dragons to an extent as a form of adaptation to the world or something.
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That is a very good point. The Imperial Dragon unlike the Dragons in Ulthuan seems to be continuous awake and active like the Wind Dragons or the Cathayan Dragons. It also does not seem to be aligned with any of the Winds like Ulthuan Dragons which could argued due to from either lack knowledge or some other factor, making the source of its relatively high energy and activity somewhat of a mystery, as it is not getting that capability through the methods the Wind Dragons employ, or at least I think so. Beyond that though, I do wonder what the Imperial Dragon feels about Dragomas as he hatched then, and likely took care them when they were young and vulnerable, a parental figure or something else?
 
Dheer said:
That is a very good point. The Imperial Dragon unlike the Dragons in Ulthuan seems to be continuous awake and active like the Wind Dragons or the Cathayan Dragons. It also does not seem to be aligned with any of the Winds like Ulthuan Dragons which could argued due to from either lack knowledge or some other factor, making the source of its relatively high energy and activity somewhat of a mystery, as it is not getting that capability through the methods the Wind Dragons employ, or at least I think so. Beyond that though, I do wonder what the Imperial Dragon feels about Dragomas as he hatched then, and likely took care them when they were young and vulnerable, a parental figure or something else?
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I'm not an expert on psychology, much less on the psychology of Dragons, and I'm not privy to the details of Dragomas' process in raising the Imperial Dragon. I assume that there is a connection there, because parentage is kind of important to most if not all living sentient beings.

With a lack of a parent, chances are the Dragon would look to the nearest person who takes care of them as a parental figure to learn from. I honestly wish I had a name for him, because Imperial Dragon is really not all that brief.
 
Codex said:
Interesting things about her: First is that her Carmine Dragon's stats surprised me. It has WS 5 and S5 like a Sun Dragon (the weakest Ulthuan Dragon type), but has T6 and W6 like a Moon Dragon (middle dragon). The Carmine Dragon has Initiative 5, which is better than any standard Ulthuan Dragon, and 6 Attacks, which is equal to Star Dragons, the strongest Ulthuan Dragon type. Its leadership is 8, like a Moon Dragon. The Carmine Dragon's stats ping pong a lot between the different Dragon types.

The second interesting thing is that the Carmine Dragon's breath attack is pretty unique. Most breath attack have the Breath Weapon rules, they're a cone originating from the caster and inflict an auto hit, but you still have to roll to wound and armor saves can be taken.

The Carmine Dragon's breath attack is fired like a damn canonball. Anything in the same path as the Carmine Dragon suffers D3 wounds automatically with no armor saves allowed, which is pretty crazy. You also can't misfire with the breath attack. It's a good thing it's only once per game.
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I know this is completely against canon, but reading this description makes me picture the Carmine Dragon as a patchwork zombie dragon made from parts of different dead dragons... with a canon bolted inside the mouth. :V
 
Codex said:
I'm not an expert on psychology, much less on the psychology of Dragons, and I'm not privy to the details of Dragomas' process in raising the Imperial Dragon. I assume that there is a connection there, because parentage is kind of important to most if not all living sentient beings.

With a lack of a parent, chances are the Dragon would look to the nearest person who takes care of them as a parental figure to learn from. I honestly wish I had a name for him, because Imperial Dragon is really not all that brief.
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True, parentage is likely especially important with Dragons as children among the race seems to be very rare,meaning much protection, raising and teaching are done by the Draconic parents throughout their life's until they are self sufficient. In which I am somewhat glad that Dragomas find them instead of another person as I have a feeling it would have gone terribly.

There are some questions on my mind about the Imperial Dragon which comes forth the more I think on it? Like what happened to parents of the egg? I doubt that they would leave the egg alone willingly as the Black Mountains would be extremely dangerous to the survival of the egg and eventual baby dragon due to the presence of Ice Giants, Trolls, flocks of Harpies or the Wyverns present in the Mountains? Who are the parents as while it is possible it could be a descendant of Ulthani Dragons unaligned with the Winds, its seems unlikely, as the only Dragons mentioned to make lairs in the Black Mountains are Frost Dragons? At least from what I know.
 
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ReImagined said:
Better not let Deathfang near it then, after what happened to the last patchwork zombie dragon :V
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I'm trying to remember what you're referring to. The patchwork zombie dragon Alkharad built couldn't be animated, and since you're mentioning Deathfang I'm assuming you're talking about this thing:
Boney said:
Julia also passes on information from the front lines: the central Hills proved to be as terrible as Van Hal had feared. The army stumbled into a vast natural valley within the Hills that proved to be the home of innumerable ghouls led by what the troops are calling the Singing King: an enormously muscled vampire mounted atop some sort of hideous dragon-bat that directed his gathered horde with long, wordless cries. The fighting was long and bloody, and near a fifth of the army are now dead, wounded, or otherwise out of action - including Gustav's Pistoliers, whose horses were driven wild by the singing of the Ghoul King, and ended up bucking their riders and escaping into the questionable safety of the Hills. In the end the back of the ghoulish army was broken and the majority of the creatures were ridden down by the Knights as they tried to flee along ancient dirt roads weaving through the hills towards the Ghoul Wood. Their King, however, remains at large - though without a mount, as Deathfang apparently took umbrage at a counterfeit dragon sharing a battlefield with him.
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Fun fact, the Bat the Singing King was riding is most likely a Terrorgheist.

Technically not a Dragon. The Vampires have an absurd amount of bat units. From Bat Swarms to Fell Bats to Vampire Bats to Terrorgheists. Many of them barely look like bats by the end.
 
Dheer said:
Who are the parents as while it is possible it could be a descendant of Ulthani Dragons unaligned with the Winds, its seems unlikely, as the only Dragons mentioned to make lairs in the Black Mountains are Frost Dragons? At least from what I know.
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It's plausible that a wind-aligned dragon's eggs aren't laid already aligned to the same wind - they simply adopt the same wind due to exposure.

Thus with the parents gone, and the egg raised in an environment not thoroughly coated in a single wind, the Imperial Dragon hasn't aligned?

Of course, I'm not 100% convinced it hasn't - it's been raised in a Ghur-aligned Altdorf by a Ghur-aligned Magister - what do Ghur aligned dragons look like?
 
kingreaper said:
It's plausible that a wind-aligned dragon's eggs aren't laid already aligned to the same wind - they simply adopt the same wind due to exposure.

Thus with the parents gone, and the egg raised in an environment not thoroughly coated in a single wind, the Imperial Dragon hasn't aligned?

Of course, I'm not 100% convinced it hasn't - it's been raised in a Ghur-aligned Altdorf by a Ghur-aligned Magister - what do Ghur aligned dragons look like?
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Possible, very possible as aligning with the Winds seem to be either a choice for Dragons as seem with Cython aligning with Hysh or possibly through exposure and teaching from the parents or both.

As for the Imperial Dragon being aligned, very unlikely as Boney indicated it is unaligned possibly for the following reasons.

Boney said:
Unaligned. Nobody's entirely sure if it's because it's young, because it wants to be, or because its parent would have taught it how to align itself.
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kingreaper said:
what do Ghur aligned dragons look like?
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In regards to this specific question, this is Boney's speculation from a long time ago:
Boney said:
Qhaysh - High Magic - Celestial Dragon? Coatl?
Ghyran - Life Magic - Forest / Venom Dragon
Shyish - Death Magic - Carmine / Emperor Carmine Dragon
Ghur - Beast Magic - Dread Saurian?
Chamon - Metal Magic - Shard Dragon?
Aqshy - Fire Magic - (Red/Fire) / Doomfire Dragon, Magma Dragon?
Azyr - Celestial Magic - Storm / Great Storm Dragon
Hysh - Light Magic - Frost / Ice Dragon
Ulgu - Shadow Magic - ???
Dhar - Dark Magic - Chaos Dragon, Black / Nightmare Dragon, Zombie Dragon
??? - Toad Dragon, Merwyrm / Sea Dragon
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Dread Saurian was his guess, but that's not a guarantee in terms of the metaphysics.

This is a Dread Saurian.
 
Raiseth said:
… damn.

Mathilde: "So here's how I prove I can keep a secret."

Ranald: "Well gosh, pretty impressive. Btw, I'm a dad."

Mathilde: "What."

Ranald: "I'm a man with many facets, okay."

It's more Ranalds all the way down, isn't it. The more we'll find out about him, the more Aspects he'll demonstrate.
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Fourfold God: Actually got at least five, just doesn't tell anybody

Ranald, bro
 
It could be a more magical reason the Imperial Dragon is growing so fast as opposed to biological (if there is even a meaningful difference in dragons).

Specifically, the fact that it is the Imperial Dragon makes it a bigger deal than usual. Maybe that means its 'territory' in dragon terms extends throughout all of the Empire, whereas Ulthuan and wild dragons have far smaller personal territories and that effects growth. Maybe it's down to the dragons hoard, with it effectively having the Imperial treasury as its hoard, with similar effects. Maybe it's a belief thing enhancing it similar to divine magic; how well known is the dragon among citizens of the Empire?

Ulthaun dragons could have less resources per dragon which hinders their growth, even if these resources are not as tangible things as humans typically need. It might not even be entirely magical; emotional needs not being met can have effects in humans and dragons could well have very different needs.

I will admit, the idea that dragons growing in large groups results in weaker dragons on average (with possible exceptions of the leader dragon) has always appealed to me. It fits the atmosphere and mythos behind them.
 
Codex said:
Huh. Oh wow. According to the Empire Rulebook, the Imperial Dragon has the exact same stats as a Moon Dragon from Ulthuan.

In DL, the Imperial Dragon is pretty young. He was apparently hatched by Dragomas, which gave him his position as Amber Patriarch. Somehow, within less than a 100 years, the Imperial Dragon goes from baby dragon to Moon Dragon.

That's a fast growing Dragon.
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This could be down to Dragomas doing magic to make the dragon grow faster.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
This could be down to Dragomas doing magic to make the dragon grow faster.
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Or in this continuity the effect of sixteen or twenty four years of constant highly concentrated Ghur on a not particularly domesticated individual. Or all the ley lines and such of the Colleges cranking up the general background level of Winds. Or those plus all the other possibilities stated so far plus Other.
 
K von Carstein said:
Are Wind dragons a different species than Ulthuani dragons, or are they the same species but some choose to align themselves and others not?
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They're the same species, according to the statements from Deathfang and Cython - but we live in a world where Lamarckian evolution is a possibility, so they could differ on a hereditary level anyway.
 
consequences said:
Or in this continuity the effect of sixteen or twenty four years of constant highly concentrated Ghur on a not particularly domesticated individual. Or all the ley lines and such of the Colleges cranking up the general background level of Winds. Or those plus all the other possibilities stated so far plus Other.
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Mm. I was talking about in this DL canon. Canon doesn't have a timeframe quite as tight.
 
Obviously the fifth face is just sitting on the edge of the Coin, and only swaps out with another face until you're not looking, with the previous face now on the edge preserving four faces.
:V
 
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