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I'll take the Tywin approach, where is the honor in risking the lives of thousands of dwarves, the entire hope of the race if lose the Karak, our friends and allies, our own life.
Should we survive, will we tell their children about our honor? Of how nice and lawful we were?
We are risking a lot here, unless you tell me that most dragons are actually quite nice and will gladly vacate ancestral lands the moment someone asks politely, then this is not a place for honor.
Or, or, and hear me out here: we get lucky. The dragon, who is person, with ya know feelings, does not have a grudge against them.

Then, then if no grudge, we lean on our dragon books to see if Dragon Chap might be helpful and maybe even consider calling in the memetic big guns, i.e. Anton.

Also, "standard option"? Diplomacy is standard option.

Murder should never be standard.

Also, you can call it whatever you want, the Tywin approach, but your post rings of "it might be a threat".

That fearmongering will never get me on your side, neighbour, and I apologise if this came off as hostile, but I do feel strongly about this.

The peaks are too big for the amount of dwarves we have as is. However, an equitable deal with our dragon neighbour where we trade gold for cultural artifacts, which they have recovered and guarded on behalf of the dwarf people from orks and Skraven, and recognition of said Dragon's right to privacy (i.e. a mountain) seems like something worth attempting.

Having a dragon ally would be fucking awesome , and based on what little information we have now, I'm comfortable arguing for hope over fear.

Strenously.
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Also, please note, this is all predictied on there being no grudge against our dragon neighbour. The descion on attack vs diplomance depends on that, and not the decision tree you laid out were the "if no grudge" comes after the "try to diplomance"
 
Emperor Dragons have an initiative of one, which is what Pit of Shades tests for, so fluffwise that's probably an incredible type advantage (not moving very fast at all versus 'get out of the way or fall into the shadow realm').
Ah but this is an Ice Dragon. Meaning it could know Speed of Light and give itself an initiative of ten.
 
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Voting closed, writing has begun.

[X] FIEF: Leave the current and future money be.

[X] [TOWER] Complete

[X] Plan Present Concerns
-[X] PROJECT: Queekish
-[X] PROJECT: Skaven Politics
-[X] PROJECT: Dragon
-[X] PROJECT: Karag Mhonar

[X][PURCHASE] Firkin of top-quality dwarf ale for LM Olenus (5gc)
[X][LIBRARY] Skaven - Dwarf Esoteric, Anatomy - Imperial Esoteric, Dragons - Dwarf, Imperial, and Bretonnian Extensive
[X][COLLEGE] Item of Boon of Hysh - 5 College Favor
[X] [DWARF] No purchase.

Doesn ´t it though? We chose the path, the dice says if we do it succesfully. If it rolls badly, we are dead. Thats pretty allmighty if you ask me. Yes preparation factors in, but i fail to see how we can ´t prepare for diplomacy. Both assassination and diplomacy requires us to be fairly close so if the roll does get botched we can pretty easily die. If it doesn ´t, and we even get a crit roll, one gets us a dead dragon and the other an ally that is pretty much one of the strongest natural forces Warhammer world has to offer. I say thats worth the risk. Trying the same with spell induced rage can result in a dragon rampaging across the mountain side which is hyper bad, because unlike Mathilde, the entrenched people with their livelyhood there can ´t run.

EDIT: I mean, all bets are off if it has a grudge against it. But until then i am hopeful.

Please refrain from this sort of weird nihilistic anti-strategy. Deciding that there's no such thing as greater or lesser risks because it's all chance anyway so you might as well YOLO it and take the path of maximum possible gain undermines the entire point of debate and discussion in quests.
 
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And do you fall into a pit of shades while you are flying? A Purple Sun item is a better bet than learning and casting the riskiest of battlemagics ourself, but either way if it's a caster it has counters.
BoneyM has said that Battle Magic items aren't much less risky then just casting Battle Magic. Also, its worth noting, because I doen't think it has come up before, that both Pit of Shades and the Purple Sun of Oogoly-Boogoly lack IFF systems. They will effect our allies, and even ourselves, if their AOE covers them/us.
 
Anything is possible: try for the best.

Alternatively:

Acknowledge probability, having observed the limits of reality as experienced before. Aim for what is maximally achievable per unit risk along a 'poisitive outcomes'-distribution curve.

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Weirdly I feel that BoneyM used nihilist correctly as opposed to that aggraving pop-nihilist way. How refreshing.

But yeah, I'm pro "attempt diplomancy if no grudge". That said, I dislike pucflek's argument based on how it lies on submitting to the dice to be valid. I do not hold to submitting.
 
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Well, part of me wouldn't mind the dragon instead of Queekish. The latter offers opportunity to spend time on research and self-advancement, including possibly AV, while the former makes AV almost necessary as a viable countermeasure via the right Anvil Rune.
 
Ah but this is an Ice Dragon. Meaning it could know Speed of Light and give itself an initiative of ten.

Pretty sure Speed of Light only lasts one combat round, so it wouldn't be instantly immune to Pit of Shades for the rest of the fight unless dispelled from casting it once.

Though i feel that Pit of Shades in fluff instead of tabletop crunch probably shouldn't be able to affect flying units. After all, it is a pit, and it gets rid of people by having them fall into said pit. Can't really fall into a pit when you are flying.
 
BoneyM has said that Battle Magic items aren't much less risky then just casting Battle Magic. Also, its worth noting, because I doen't think it has come up before, that both Pit of Shades and the Purple Sun of Oogoly-Boogoly lack IFF systems. They will effect our allies, and even ourselves, if their AOE covers them/us.
Pit would have to be used in a lair alpha strike because dragons can fly. Purple Sun could be used there or on a flying target. Either way you don't target them near allies.
 
BoneyM has said that Battle Magic items aren't much less risky then just casting Battle Magic. Also, its worth noting, because I doen't think it has come up before, that both Pit of Shades and the Purple Sun of Oogoly-Boogoly lack IFF systems. They will effect our allies, and even ourselves, if their AOE covers them/us.
That just falls under the same logic as not sawing off a tree branch you're sitting on. :V
Pretty sure Speed of Light only lasts one combat round, so it wouldn't be instantly immune to Pit of Shades for the rest of the fight unless dispelled from casting it once.

Though i feel that Pit of Shades in fluff instead of tabletop crunch probably shouldn't be able to affect flying units. After all, it is a pit, and it gets rid of people by having them fall into said pit. Can't really fall into a pit when you are flying.
Well, it's a pit to the warp full of wailing shades. It sucking in people because it's not really a geographically physical object isn't particularly implausible.
 
Though i feel that Pit of Shades in fluff instead of tabletop crunch probably shouldn't be able to affect flying units. After all, it is a pit, and it gets rid of people by having them fall into said pit. Can't really fall into a pit when you are flying.

Fluff-wise Pit of Shades is a vortex-like portal to the eponymous pit, not an actual pit itself.

"The Wizard opens a vortex to an infamous Pit of Shades. Terrified warriors fall screaming through a portal, plummeting to a dimension filled with shadow and incessant wailing of "those who dwell beyond"."
 
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Fluff-wise Pit of Shades is a vortex-like portal to the eponymous pit, not an actual pit itself.

"The Wizard opens a vortex to an infamous Pit of Shades. Terrified warriors fall screaming through a portal, plummeting to a dimension filled with shadow and incessant wailing of "those who dwell beyond"."

I mean by Sigmar!

WILL THEY NEVER. SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP!?

as said by any caster of Pit Of Shades, ever.
 
Do Ice Dragons use Hysh or Azyr? I've seen people say both.
Hysh.
- Information Mathilde would know: frost dragons are the 'normal' dragons with pale blue scales and freezing breath. Ice dragons are the name for Emperor Dragons of that sub-type, the largest, oldest, wisest, and most powerful of dragons, who are often spellcasters as well. Ice Dragons that cast magic use Hysh, the Lore of Light.
 
There was a snippet bothering me, and this is the result.

The Second Battle For Karak Eight Peaks That Never Was

Or

Who Gave Anton Loaded Dice?!



Mathilde was a lot of things.

Open minded. Good at thinking on her feet. Flexible, pragmatic, capable and resourceful. Resourceful most of all.
And despite whatever your average Stirlander or Dawi thought, definitely not a miracle-maker.
No, that honor belonged solely to her old friend Anton.

"Let's start this again. Care to enlighten me what are all these… honored gentlemen doing here? How are they here?" Mathilde asked the gregarious Baron, the suprisingly competent former Chancellor of Stirland and a fellow EIC share-holder, feeling torn between gratitude, confusion and a bit of anger at Anton's beaming face.

She did not appreciate things that left her perplexed, both on a personal and professional level.

She was the Dammerlichreiter, Ranald damn it! She should be the one doing the confusing and looking smug doing it, not the other way around!

"Well, Mathilde, remember how you told me that you had some exotic Beastmen problem?" asked Anton Kiesinger, a handsome and earnest man whose customary wide innocent smile now seemed to mock her.

"I do" replied Mathilde grumpily.
Horned Rat had unfortunately declared the ratmen cease-fire sooner than later, before she had managed to manipulate them into wiping each other, or at the very least clan Mors out, and so the reclaimers of Karak Eight Peaks were stuck facing the united Skaven threat.

"And that the greenskins were behaving particularly rowdy?"

Of course, fate didn't consider the innumerable hordes of Skaven dangerous enough, oh no.

Why not add an Orc Waaagh into the mix, and let's have them be led by a particularly sneaky, powerful and deadly Warboss named Gorfang whose death despite her best efforts somehow just wouldn't stick.

You know, just for good measure. She had words with her precious patron for than one.

"Yes, Anton, I remember."

"Oh, and how somebody somehow woke up a really big scaly magical beasty at the same time?"

Yes, let's add a forsaken blingy-blingy Emperor Dragon to Mathilde's chore list, just for good measure.
Did Mathilde perchance mention that she seriously considered converting to Grimnir and declaring a Grudge on Ranald for that one?
No? Well she did. Does. She had yet to decide which.

"YES, ANTON. I REMEMBER." The Grey Wizard said testily, not managing to keep the ire out of her voice.

"Gosh, Mathilde, relax! That can't be good for your heart, magic or not. And stop making that dwarf face at me. You aren't one, and surliness is bad for a magic lady's wrinkles, my aunt said so. And she would know! Anyway, I told you that your ol' pal Anton would handle it, and I did, didn't I?"

Mathilde stopped herself from gnashing her teeth with a supreme effort of will, and with a deep sigh, considered how to make the other human start finally making sense.

"Yes, Anton. You handled it. I am grateful. As are King Belegar, the Council, Clan Angrund, Undumgi, Halflings, Karak Azul and Ulrikandrin. Please, explain how."

"Well, first of all, after I read your message, I decided to sleep on it. The morning after, as I was munching on my morning tost, I remembered reading somewhere somewhen how pretty much all the beastmen in the world were deathly afraid of those quaint elfs down in Bretonnia, and so I asked Asarnil who was, as luck would have it, passing near Blutdorf at the time, if he could maybe introduce me to his estranged cousins.
Oh, and if he would terribly mind flying me there and back, of course.
I wouldn't have bothered the jolly good fellow and his fine companion otherwise, but well, time was somewhat of a factor. He was strangely reluctant at first, but I managed to persuade him in the end."

"Is that why there are a half-a-dozen antlered Dragons, their accompanying Elf Lords and an Avatar of a Savage God roaming all over the Caldera?"

"Mats, I know what you are thinking. Yes, Orion and his friends are a bit rough around the edges. And yes, they and the Dwarfs had some unfortunate misunderstandings in the past. But deep down they are good people! And Ariel makes the best honey-cakes. Oh, and did I mention they had dragons! And you had that little dragon situation, too, so I figured, 'Hey, two birds with one stone!' And the more the dragons, the merrier! At least Asarnil tells me so.
And how was I to know that your beast-men are so peculiar to dislike the woods and prefer tunnels?
Nevertheless, my father didn't raise no slacker for a son, so I put my thinking hat back on and made it work. And it all turned out fine, didn't it?"

"Just terrific. I suppose that answers the question of why there's a giant white bipedal crocodile-lizard leading other, smaller but still quite gigantic, bipedal crocodile-lizards in my, I mean, in Belegar's tunnels?"

"What can I say. You can meet the most interesting people in Barak-Varr. And Nakai may seem tough and scary on the surface, but he's just a teddy bear, really."

"I see... and the four-armed Ind Godling slaughtering the Orc leaders and stealing my Dwarf favor?"

"First of all, Mats. Sharing is Caring. Second of all, his name is Kumara, son of Brahmir."

"Why is he here?!"

"Now, that's a funny story…"
If the ind gods is a fraction as powerful as their Indian models, then they're pretty much OP.

Indian heros only have to be carefull against hermit gurus, avatars and curses of virtous persons.
 
You've gotta wonder why there's just this random spot in the warp that just happens to have a bunch of perpetually wailing souls in it; and futhermore how exactly the grey order got access to an unerring plane shift to it.
 
Qhaysh - High Magic - Celestial Dragon? Coatl?
Ghyran - Life Magic - Forest / Venom Dragon
Shyish - Death Magic - Carmine / Emperor Carmine Dragon
Ghur - Beast Magic - Dread Saurian?
Chamon - Metal Magic - Shard Dragon?
Aqshy - Fire Magic - (Red/Fire) / Doomfire Dragon, Magma Dragon?
Azyr - Celestial Magic - Storm / Great Storm Dragon
Hysh - Light Magic - Frost / Ice Dragon
Ulgu - Shadow Magic - ???
Dhar - Dark Magic - Chaos Dragon, Black / Nightmare Dragon, Zombie Dragon
??? - Toad Dragon, Merwyrm / Sea Dragon
 
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God, I really hope I'm awake for the update, I want to see Kazador blow shit up.
You've gotta wonder why there's just this random spot in the warp that just happens to have a bunch of perpetually wailing souls in it; and futhermore how exactly the grey order got access to an unerring plane shift to it.
This is Warhammer. Frankly, I'm more impressed by any spell that opens up portals to the Warp that don't have perpetually agonized souls on the other end.
 
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