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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Sculpt0r said:
Not an important question, but I was rereading, and I noticed that Dragomas is first mentioned to transform into a Celestial Dragon. Is this just a term for a Cathayan dragon, or does he actually color swap from Ghur to Azyr? If he does, did Mathilde see how he did it without generating Dhar?
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Celestial Dragons, despite the name, don't really have to be aligned to Azyr. The term just refers to the snake like eastern dragons. The impression I'm getting is that Dragomas can't cast any spells while he's in dragon form, because the spell clearly states that is the case. If he could cast while Dragon, Mathilde would likely mention it because that's game changing.
 
Here's the rundown of dragon types and Wind affiliations from Boney eighteen months ago:
BoneyM said:
Qhaysh - High Magic - Celestial Dragon? Coatl?
Ghyran - Life Magic - Forest / Venom Dragon
Shyish - Death Magic - Carmine / Emperor Carmine Dragon
Ghur - Beast Magic - Dread Saurian?
Chamon - Metal Magic - Shard Dragon?
Aqshy - Fire Magic - (Red/Fire) / Doomfire Dragon, Magma Dragon?
Azyr - Celestial Magic - Storm / Great Storm Dragon
Hysh - Light Magic - Frost / Ice Dragon
Ulgu - Shadow Magic - ???
Dhar - Dark Magic - Chaos Dragon, Black / Nightmare Dragon, Zombie Dragon
??? - Toad Dragon, Merwyrm / Sea Dragon
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Celestial Dragons, despite the name, are speculatively aligned with Qhaysh. The dragons aligned with Azyr are Storm Dragons -- we have a piece of one gathering dust, with no consensus of what to do with it*. A lot of these assignations are purely speculative and would require research to nail down for sure. Ulgu-aligned dragons are, of course, SCP-055.
Chopak said:
How does he cast spell returning him to human form then?
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Doesn't need to:
BoneyM said:
When one of us transforms, we hold what we truly are inside of us, and so when the spell ends we revert.
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He just returns when the spell ends.

*My personal preference is "gift to Eike upon becoming a Magister," but that is a length of time away equal to the entire length of the quest so far and therefore so speculative as to be meaningless.
 
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Chopak said:
How does he cast spell returning him to human form then?
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That ends naturally for them.
BoneyM said:
He busies himself, and a minute later hands you a chipped stone mug of surprisingly pleasant dandelion tea. "When one of us transforms, we hold what we truly are inside of us, and so when the spell ends we revert. Someone else does not have the training to hold who they are within them, so the transformation sinks deeper into them until nothing remains untouched. So the menhir also imbues a second spell into them, which does the remembering of what they were."
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Chopak said:
If that was the case, the dispelling of the Transformation would mess up the process and iirc that's not how it works when Dragomas transforms.
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No, you can absolutely countermagic Dragomas's transformation or try to dispel it after it's taken effect. The fact that nobody has successfully taken Supreme Patriarch away from him using this obvious strategy suggests that he is prepared for it, e.g. we know he can cast the Battle Magic spell Amber Spear because he used it on one of his challengers:
BoneyM said:
Then a Celestial Wizard stands against Dragomas and draws in Azyr until she crackles with energies, but instead of transforming Dragomas plucks an Amber Spear from empty air and throws it at the challenger with such force that she is pinned to the magical barrier behind her. After a brief interlude while the spear is banished and the damage healed by the Jade Wizards, Dragomas once more stands in the center of the room, looking for a new challenger.
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Our clothes-hating grandboss isn't a one-trick pony. "Stop him from being a dragon" is a great first step, but then you have reduced the problem to a mere "you are in a room with a Battle-Magic-capable Amber wizard annoyed with you specifically."
 
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Chopak said:
If that was the case, the dispelling of the Transformation would mess up the process and iirc that's not how it works when Dragomas transforms.
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I don't think the holding who you are training for amber wizards is a spell, so if the transformation was dispelled he would go back to being human.
 
Speaking of battle magic I wonder if access to the Library of the Mornings will give us any insight into the standard spell list, it is elf magic after all. Or baring that if there is any shadow magic there which Teclis did not bother to teach or did not know, it had been a long time since the two kindreds parted way,
 
I think the 'other Kingdom' single-wind traditions, like that of those navigational Mist Mages (?), do differ from Saphery's and it's High Magic traditions.

Presumably because many also fall into what Asarnil was describing- they're not trying to be a pure/primary mage. Caldorian Aqushy users are Dragon-Knights first and foremost, and my expectation of Shadow Warriors- if as Daroir hinted they do have a magical tradition- is that they're broadly some kind of Ulgu Ninja Commandos, with a spellbook to match.
It's also quite likely that bit of the world hasn't been built out yet, as we've not yet even set foot on a sea-ship, nor booked passage.
 
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Alliterate said:
I think the 'other Kingdom' single-wind traditions, like that of Nagarythe, do differ from Saphery's and it's High Magic traditions.

Presumably because many also fall into what Asarnil was describing- they're not trying to be a pure/primary mage. Caldorian Aqushy users are Dragon-Knights first and foremost, and my expectation of Shadow Warriors- if as Daroir hinted they do have a magical tradition- is that they're broadly some kind of Ulgu Ninja Commandos, with a spellbook to match.
It's also quite likely that bit of the world hasn't been built out yet, as we've not yet even set foot on a sea-ship.
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Hmm, that makes me wonder if there's other Ulgu traditions in Ultunae. After all, the natural inclination of Ulgu leads more towards mystics and showmasters, not secret police. I can totally see Ulgu used by elven poets, especially since their language is pretty much "Ulgu but it's words" with lots of ambiguities and hidden meanings. Hell, Ulgu using poets may have contributed to making their language that way.
 
BurnNote said:
Hmm, that makes me wonder if there's other Ulgu traditions in Ultunae. After all, the natural inclination of Ulgu leads more towards mystics and showmasters, not secret police. I can totally see Ulgu used by elven poets, especially since their language is pretty much "Ulgu but it's words" with lots of ambiguities and hidden meanings. Hell, Ulgu using poets may have contributed to making their language that way.
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How so? How would practicing magic and poetry be linked? Ulgu may lend itself to mystics and showmen, but Elves try not to become so inclined to wWinds (and Boney has implied they can't IIRC). And learning magic seems like it would just take away from your time practicing your craft.
 
BurnNote said:
Hmm, that makes me wonder if there's other Ulgu traditions in Ultunae. After all, the natural inclination of Ulgu leads more towards mystics and showmasters, not secret police. I can totally see Ulgu used by elven poets, especially since their language is pretty much "Ulgu but it's words" with lots of ambiguities and hidden meanings. Hell, Ulgu using poets may have contributed to making their language that way.
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Hmm... you know, considering how well they fit the Ulgu ideal, maybe elves actually only have Ulgu-using mages, and they just use it to fool people into thinking that they have other traditions. Maybe High Magic is just one big practical joke nobody's figured out yet! :V
 
deathofrats0808 said:
How so? How would practicing magic and poetry be linked? Ulgu may lend itself to mystics and showmen, but Elves try not to become so inclined to wWinds (and Boney has implied they can't IIRC). And learning magic seems like it would just take away from your time practicing your craft.
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Elves try to avoid getting Arcane Marks because those lock the one marked into the wind. They do however get into mindset appropriate to the wind they need to use, as that is a neccesary part of using that wind for casting. As for the time... Well, the elves tend to live pretty long. Als, in canon Ulthuan actually has an "every citizen has to be able to fight" mentality, so a poet also being a spellcaster even if inferior to actual dedicated Mage is rather appropriate.
 
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deathofrats0808 said:
How so? How would practicing magic and poetry be linked? Ulgu may lend itself to mystics and showmen, but Elves try not to become so inclined to wWinds (and Boney has implied they can't IIRC). And learning magic seems like it would just take away from your time practicing your craft.
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There are elven mages that specialise. In fact, most of them do. They don't in the way of humans, who can't do something else, but being more comfortable or in-tune with a wind does not require changes to the soul, that is a matter of personality and simple experience. Also, the thinking patterns best suited to and encouraged by a wind would still affect them over extended periods. Just like Mathilde would be affected by using dhar even with the belt, because it requires thinking like a megalomaniac.

And I think elves would consider learning magic as part of practicing your craft. A woodworker would know some Gyran to shape and strengthen wood, maybe some Aqshy to cure it, maybe Chamon to analyse it. A metalworker would probably know some Chamon and Aqshy. And spells like the toolless enchanting set are probably very common and widespread.

As for why poetry and Ulgu? On the one hand, if your a professional poet, you probably have to do some recitation if you want to get your name out there, so you have to be something of a performer. Thinking about clever hidden meanings is also an Ulgu thing (though depending on your approach, it could also be quite Hysh if your seeking to convey/discover a deeper, simpler truth). So the poets will be more Ulgu inclined than the "average". And on the flip side, Ulgu is just plain useful. Illusions just for the showmanship, and mental magics to enhance a performance (where you'd also have aqshy for passion).

It's obviously speculation. It's not baseless, but it's also not well-founded. It's plausible enough that thinking about it is a decent enough way to spend some time. I don't think it'll come up in quest, because Mathilde got invited by the elf ninjas, to elf ninja land and nowhere else, and she is secret police so ninja magic is a lot more useful to her than poetry magic.
NSMS said:
Hmm... you know, considering how well they fit the Ulgu ideal, maybe elves actually only have Ulgu-using mages, and they just use it to fool people into thinking that they have other traditions. Maybe High Magic is just one big practical joke nobody's figured out yet! :V
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Deathfang is an Ulgu dragon, but he's not going to admit to it.
 
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BurnNote said:
There are elven mages that specialise. In fact, most of them do. They don't in the way of humans, who can't do something else, but being more comfortable or in-tune with a wind does not require changes to the soul, that is a matter of personality and simple experience. Also, the thinking patterns best suited to and encouraged by a wind would still affect them over extended periods. Just like Mathilde would be affected by using dhar even with the belt, because it requires thinking like a megalomaniac.

And I think elves would consider learning magic as part of practicing your craft. A woodworker would know some Gyran to shape and strengthen wood, maybe some Aqshy to cure it, maybe Chamon to analyse it. A metalworker would probably know some Chamon and Aqshy. And spells like the toolless enchanting set are probably very common and widespread.
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I would argue that this is all but stated canon, I can't think of any description of elven craft made goods not having a little magic in them, or as part of their creation process.
 
In general, Ulthuan's magical traditions see the Winds like a toolbox. Sometimes the job you're doing means, say, you use a screwdriver more than a hammer, and some career paths require extremely high skill levels with a particular tool, like carpenters getting really good with a chisel. But they see it as self-evidently insane to foreswear all other tools in favour of the screwdriver, welcome it into your soul, and have your mind and body mutated in various screwdriver-related ways, and if that happens to one of them by accident it's considered to be a tragic and crippling accident, like losing a hand while operating a bandsaw.
 
BoneyM said:
In general, Ulthuan's magical traditions see the Winds like a toolbox. Sometimes the job you're doing means, say, you use a screwdriver more than a hammer, and some career paths require extremely high skill levels with a particular tool, like carpenters getting really good with a chisel. But they see it as self-evidently insane to foreswear all other tools in favour of the screwdriver, welcome it into your soul, and have your mind and body mutated in various screwdriver-related ways, and if that happens to one of them by accident it's considered to be a tragic and crippling accident, like losing a hand while operating a bandsaw.
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...Wonder which Wind is the screwdriver? :V
 
BoneyM said:
In general, Ulthuan's magical traditions see the Winds like a toolbox. Sometimes the job you're doing means, say, you use a screwdriver more than a hammer, and some career paths require extremely high skill levels with a particular tool, like carpenters getting really good with a chisel. But they see it as self-evidently insane to foreswear all other tools in favour of the screwdriver, welcome it into your soul, and have your mind and body mutated in various screwdriver-related ways, and if that happens to one of them by accident it's considered to be a tragic and crippling accident, like losing a hand while operating a bandsaw.
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.... they see human wizards as those mad scientists who decided to replace their arm with a saw. don't they?

its kind of cool when you hear about it, but when they actually meet them all they can think about is 'wholly shit that guy cut of his own arm and stuck a saw on the stump!'
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
its kind of cool when you hear about it, but when they actually meet them all they can think about is 'wholly shit that guy cut of his own arm and stuck a saw on the stump!'
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There's an idea that Elves would treat human Wizards condescendingly but really, imagine how, say, a master fletcher would feel when they met someone who took a basic course in making arrows and it turned all their fingers into chisels and they think it owns and now they run around stabbing the forces of evil with their chisel fingers. Yes, the fletcher would make much, much better arrows than Chisel Man. But that would probably not be the fletcher's main takeaway from that encounter.
 
BoneyM said:
There's an idea that Elves would treat human Wizards condescendingly but really, imagine how, say, a master fletcher would feel when they met someone who took a basic course in making arrows and it turned all their fingers into chisels and they think it owns and now they run around stabbing the forces of evil with their chisel fingers. Yes, the fletcher would make much, much better arrows than Chisel Man. But that would probably not be the fletcher's main takeaway from that encounter.
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And thus was born the elven theatrical epic, Edward Chiselfingers. A heartwarming tale of overcoming prejudice and hardships, of the beauty of love and friendship, and of stabbing demons repeatedly in the face with chiselfingers.
 
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