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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Altom said:
Elves try to avoid getting Arcane Marks because those lock the one marked into the wind. They do however get into mindset appropriate to the wind they need to use, as that is a neccesary part of using that wind for casting. As for the time... Well, the elves tend to live pretty long. Als, in canon Ulthuan actually has an "every citizen has to be able to fight" mentality, so a poet also being a spellcaster even if inferior to actual dedicated Mage is rather appropriate.
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Ulthuan has a citizen militia for that. Not to mention, while picking up magic might very well be common, my argument was that I don't see the reason poets would be particularly linked with Ulgu.

See below for my argument about mindsets affecting Elves.

BurnNote said:
There are elven mages that specialise. In fact, most of them do. They don't in the way of humans, who can't do something else, but being more comfortable or in-tune with a wind does not require changes to the soul, that is a matter of personality and simple experience. Also, the thinking patterns best suited to and encouraged by a wind would still affect them over extended periods. Just like Mathilde would be affected by using dhar even with the belt, because it requires thinking like a megalomaniac.

And I think elves would consider learning magic as part of practicing your craft. A woodworker would know some Gyran to shape and strengthen wood, maybe some Aqshy to cure it, maybe Chamon to analyse it. A metalworker would probably know some Chamon and Aqshy. And spells like the toolless enchanting set are probably very common and widespread.

As for why poetry and Ulgu? On the one hand, if your a professional poet, you probably have to do some recitation if you want to get your name out there, so you have to be something of a performer. Thinking about clever hidden meanings is also an Ulgu thing (though depending on your approach, it could also be quite Hysh if your seeking to convey/discover a deeper, simpler truth). So the poets will be more Ulgu inclined than the "average". And on the flip side, Ulgu is just plain useful. Illusions just for the showmanship, and mental magics to enhance a performance (where you'd also have aqshy for passion).

It's obviously speculation. It's not baseless, but it's also not well-founded. It's plausible enough that thinking about it is a decent enough way to spend some time. I don't think it'll come up in quest, because Mathilde got invited by the elf ninjas, to elf ninja land and nowhere else, and she is secret police so ninja magic is a lot more useful to her than poetry magic.
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As to the mindset Boney has all-but-confirmed this already but I don't see the Asur picking up only one sort of magic. Yes a given Elf might prefer one Wind. I'd expect that sort of preference even out of a fully-trained Hoethian graduate. But I don't see them ever picking up and only using one Wind. Even the Shadow Warriors Mathilde is going to stay with probably know like, Asqhy cantrips to light small fires, and Ghyran ones to find water. Little quality of life things like that. And IMO, that means that either the Elves don't get those mindsets or that they can put themselves in and out of them at will, or that regularly using more than two of them prevents either really affecting a person.

I'd actually expect reciting poetry to be a noble thing, not something you do as a poet. Indeed I suspect poetry is not really a career. I could see bards (in the real world sense) using it, but even then it'd be interspersed with other stuff, simply because you need a wide range of skills for that job (seriously, bards had like, five jobs in one. It's insane). More than a little Hysh (I think that'd be the correct Wind) for memorization for instance. Actually I'd expect there to be more Ulgu in the theater business, as it's used by stagehands and the like for effects. I see the link between poetry and hidden meanings, but I think saying poetry is all, or even mostly that is a little reductive. Like any art form poetry depends on what its author wants to do with it, whether that's write a clever double meaning, or express an emotion.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Poetry might be associated with the educated elite today, but there's a long and rich history of working class poetry dating back centuries, with many people being career poets.
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Poetry is less an educated elite thing today than at almost any time throughout history I'd argue. You don't need royal patronage or to memorize three thousand lines of Beowulf, you can write whatever the hell you like and self-publish it.

But that aside, when I say I see poetry recital as a noble thing, I meant I suspect it's considered a thing nobles should be able to do. It's considered a courtly skill for a noble to be able to quickly compose and recite verse, especially if that verse is in some way a verbal slight or boast. A bit like Norse flyting but without the 'duel' aspect.

Meanwhile I'd expect any professional 'poets' to be closer to bards or troubadours. Not necessarily high-class but not solely a poet either. They'd also sing and dance, and play music and so on. So I'd expect verse recital to not be linked with composing poetry particularly (that's not to say that there won't be people who both compose and recite poetry, but I'd expect those to be less common and to be bard-types first and foremost).
 
Poetry used to be a lot more a part of daily life, and its historical association with the upper classes is mostly just because that's what got recorded - the poet laureate would have their works published, while the troubadour at the local pub wouldn't. It's far from my area of expertise but my impression is that it serves a vital function in society before literacy becomes widespread because meter and rhyme serve as mnemonic devices to better preserve oral history. You can get a glimpse of how much has changed by things like how much influence the works of the inestimable Rabbie Burns had on the Scottish national identity. Or by the writings of authors who studied history, like how in Lord of the Rings Tolkien has Frodo write a poem in honour of Gandalf after Moria, or how in Patrick O'Brians Aubrey-Maturin series many characters discuss and recite poetry. Notably neither of those two made it to the Hollywood adaptations, though I do remember seeing a deleted scene from Master and Commander where one of the officers stands up during dinner to recite a poem he'd composed about their current voyage.

There's another world out there where a Boney with more of a head for poetry has written Mathilde reciting a poem here and there, and possibly writing one or two of her own.
 
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BoneyM said:
There's another world out there where a Boney with more of a head for poetry has written Mathilde reciting a poem here and there, and possibly writing one or two of her own.
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Since she got into drawing as a means to attack, maybe she'd go full weeaboo and make haikus?

I move through shadows,
My allies, my friends, my self.
I behead unseen.
 
Dr Heaven M.D. said:
Since she got into drawing as a means to attack, maybe she'd go full weeaboo and make haikus?

I move through shadows,
My allies, my friends, my self.
I behead unseen.
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The traditional form of the haiku includes a restriction on the final syllable and a narrow range of possible subjects. Therefore 'English haikus' are an attempt to translate a convention without fully understanding it, when full understanding would indicate that there already exists an English equivalent: a form of poetry that mandates a set amount of syllables, a set end of the first and final lines (specifically, 'ʌkɪt') and a set topic (specifically, the outlandish attributes or activities of an inhabitant of the island of Nantucket). In this essay I will
 
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So fun fact that a lot of people don't know about Poetry or its use in historical moments, is Harald Hardrada, the famous viking King who laid claim to England's throne and died at the famous battle of Stanford bridge (Go Nameless viking!) was actually considered in his day a Battle-Poet, and would always before battles sing out a verse or two. Now, we don't have a lot of his poems, but we do know some and he had one at the battle of Stanford bridge.

Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 1
We go Forward
Into Battle
Without Armor
Against Blue Blades
Helmets Glitter
My coat of mail
and all our armour
Are at the Ships

he then went "You know what, thats not good enough for MY men, let me try again"
Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 2
We never kneel in battle
Before the storm of weapons
And crouch behind our shields;
So the noble lady told me.
She told me once to carry
My head always high in battle
Where swords seek to shatter
the skulls of doomed warriors.


What I mean to say all this by, Sigmar absolutely had a poetry battle with a norscan Chieftan when he went to genocide them all, and the fact we only have Wulfrik who shouts (poetry) insults at people is a travesty and needs to be address GW LIKE THE FUCK!!!

Edit: I meant Wulfrik, I didn't mean Ulric, super sorry don't feed me to wolves
 
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ThatGuyMike said:
So fun fact that a lot of people don't know about Poetry or its use in historical moments, is Harald Hardrada, the famous viking King who laid claim to England's throne and died at the famous battle of Stanford bridge (Go Nameless viking!) was actually considered in his day a Battle-Poet, and would always before battles sing out a verse or two. Now, we don't have a lot of his poems, but we do know some and he had one at the battle of Stanford bridge.

Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 1's Poem pt 1
We go Forward
Into Battle
Without Armor
Against Blue Blades
Helmets Glitter
My coat of mail
and all our armour
Are at the Ships

he then went "You know what, thats not good enough for MY men, let me try again"
Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 2's Poem pt 2
We never kneel in battle
Before the storm of weapons
And crouch behind our shields;
So the noble lady told me.
She told me once to carry
My head always high in battle
Where swords seek to shatter
the skulls of doomed warriors.


What I mean to say all this by, Sigmar absolutely had a poetry battle with a norscan Chieftan when he went to genocide them all, and the fact we only have Wulfrik who shouts (poetry) insults at people is a travesty and needs to be address GW LIKE THE FUCK!!!

Edit: I meant Wulfrik, I didn't mean Ulric, super sorry don't feed me to wolves
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I wish I could give this post all five reactions at once.
 
BoneyM said:
I wish I could give this post all five reactions at once.
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I could wax for hours about the various Viking battle poets who did AMAZING work historically, but I'd derail the thread another 10k pages before I got halfway through. Hardrada himself I also adore, so many fun tidbits like the fact he wasn't actually called Hardrada by contemporaries of the time, but ima stop before I rave about one of my favored hobbies.

Shame then that I absolutely detest poetry outside of that very specific context.

Edit: I keep doing minor spelling mistakes, Wasn't, wasn't, wasn't...
 
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Hmm, maybe we should buy poetry books sometime soon. Maybe Vlag came up with some interesting stuff during their disappearance...
 
ThatGuyMike said:
Ahhh, Haikus and poetry.

Readys nail bat

We meet again after all these years...
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BoneyM said:
The traditional form of the haiku includes a restriction on the final syllable and a narrow range of possible subjects. Therefore 'English haikus' are an attempt to translate a convention without fully understanding it, when full understanding would indicate that there already exists an English equivalent: a form of poetry that mandates a set amount of syllables, a set end of the first and final lines (specifically, 'tʌkɪt') and a set topic (specifically, the outlandish attributes or activities of an inhabitant of the island of Nantucket). In this essay I will
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NuclearConsensus said:
This is actually closer to a senryu than a haiku. The former doesn't have the restrictions the latter has (like the need for a seasonal word) and is written in present tense.
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I just wanted to make a joke! I wanted to make a joke about weeb Mathilde, not release the goddamn literature majors upon the world!
 
BoneyM said:
Notably neither of those two made it to the Hollywood adaptations, though I do remember seeing a deleted scene from Master and Commander where one of the officers stands up during dinner to recite a poem he'd composed about their current voyage.
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Interestingly/sadly, the Lord of the Rings movies took some of Tolkien's poems and turned them into speeches, with Theoden's speech/poem before his death being a notable example:
Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
spear shall be shaken, shield shall be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now, ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!
Death! Death! Death!
Forth Eorlingas!
 
ThatGuyMike said:
So fun fact that a lot of people don't know about Poetry or its use in historical moments, is Harald Hardrada, the famous viking King who laid claim to England's throne and died at the famous battle of Stanford bridge (Go Nameless viking!) was actually considered in his day a Battle-Poet, and would always before battles sing out a verse or two. Now, we don't have a lot of his poems, but we do know some and he had one at the battle of Stanford bridge.

Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 1's Poem pt 1
We go Forward
Into Battle
Without Armor
Against Blue Blades
Helmets Glitter
My coat of mail
and all our armour
Are at the Ships

he then went "You know what, thats not good enough for MY men, let me try again"
Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 2's Poem pt 2
We never kneel in battle
Before the storm of weapons
And crouch behind our shields;
So the noble lady told me.
She told me once to carry
My head always high in battle
Where swords seek to shatter
the skulls of doomed warriors.


What I mean to say all this by, Sigmar absolutely had a poetry battle with a norscan Chieftan when he went to genocide them all, and the fact we only have Wulfrik who shouts (poetry) insults at people is a travesty and needs to be address GW LIKE THE FUCK!!!

Edit: I meant Wulfrik, I didn't mean Ulric, super sorry don't feed me to wolves
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Oh yeah.

Sigmar definitely won some devastating rap battles.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Ulthuan has a citizen militia for that. Not to mention, while picking up magic might very well be common, my argument was that I don't see the reason poets would be particularly linked with Ulgu.
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And our hypothetical poet will almost certainly be a part of said militia. And the reason for the link comes from quest canon where Ulgu naturally makes for mystics and showmen.
deathofrats0808 said:
As to the mindset Boney has all-but-confirmed this already but I don't see the Asur picking up only one sort of magic. Yes a given Elf might prefer one Wind. I'd expect that sort of preference even out of a fully-trained Hoethian graduate. But I don't see them ever picking up and only using one Wind. Even the Shadow Warriors Mathilde is going to stay with probably know like, Asqhy cantrips to light small fires, and Ghyran ones to find water. Little quality of life things like that. And IMO, that means that either the Elves don't get those mindsets or that they can put themselves in and out of them at will, or that regularly using more than two of them prevents either really affecting a person.
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The bolded part is the correct one if memory holds. In fact, given that humans can switch between winds pre-Arcane Marks is a rather clear indication that one is not locked into a mindset at least before getting a Mark. On the subject of only using one Wind, I would actually agree. However, it is possible for a elf to specialize heavily in one wind while also knowing minor tricks from other ones and that is what I think is going on with our hypothetical poet
 
ThatGuyMike said:
So fun fact that a lot of people don't know about Poetry or its use in historical moments, is Harald Hardrada, the famous viking King who laid claim to England's throne and died at the famous battle of Stanford bridge (Go Nameless viking!) was actually considered in his day a Battle-Poet, and would always before battles sing out a verse or two. Now, we don't have a lot of his poems, but we do know some and he had one at the battle of Stanford bridge.

Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 1's Poem pt 1
We go Forward
Into Battle
Without Armor
Against Blue Blades
Helmets Glitter
My coat of mail
and all our armour
Are at the Ships

he then went "You know what, thats not good enough for MY men, let me try again"
Harald Hardrada's Poem pt 2's Poem pt 2
We never kneel in battle
Before the storm of weapons
And crouch behind our shields;
So the noble lady told me.
She told me once to carry
My head always high in battle
Where swords seek to shatter
the skulls of doomed warriors.


What I mean to say all this by, Sigmar absolutely had a poetry battle with a norscan Chieftan when he went to genocide them all, and the fact we only have Wulfrik who shouts (poetry) insults at people is a travesty and needs to be address GW LIKE THE FUCK!!!

Edit: I meant Wulfrik, I didn't mean Ulric, super sorry don't feed me to wolves
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Norscan Warlord, moments before disaster:

Flyte me, you coward.

EDIT:

In this regard, i have always liked Torroar's description of Ungrim Ironfist. A whirlwind of death on a battlefield that also doubles as boombox for death songs. It all sounds incredibly cool.
 
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pucflek said:
In this regard, i have always liked Torroar's description of Ungrim Ironfist. A whirlwind of death on a battlefield that also doubles as boombox for death songs. It all sounds incredibly cool.
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Man, Torroar is a bit of a writing god. Ungrim was already a 10/10 for me personally, but went to an 13/10 in Torroar's quest.

pucflek said:
Norscan Warlord, moments before disaster:

Flyte me, you coward.
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Oh, hello there Wukfrick 2512 years before Wulfrick was born! You're the lucky winner! Your prize? Why, none other than Genocide!
 
BoneyM said:
There's an idea that Elves would treat human Wizards condescendingly but really, imagine how, say, a master fletcher would feel when they met someone who took a basic course in making arrows and it turned all their fingers into chisels and they think it owns and now they run around stabbing the forces of evil with their chisel fingers. Yes, the fletcher would make much, much better arrows than Chisel Man. But that would probably not be the fletcher's main takeaway from that encounter.
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Do you think Teclis stays in Ulthuan because he too lives in fear of what he's created?
 
Wonder what other elves feel about what Teclis has created.
Possibly something similar to what order aligned humans feel about chaos worshippers intentionally seeking mutations.
 
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BoneyM said:
Or by the writings of authors who studied history, like how in Lord of the Rings Tolkien has Frodo write a poem in honour of Gandalf after Moria, or how in Patrick O'Brians Aubrey-Maturin series many characters discuss and recite poetry. Notably neither of those two made it to the Hollywood adaptations, though I do remember seeing a deleted scene from Master and Commander where one of the officers stands up during dinner to recite a poem he'd composed about their current voyage.
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I'm pretty sure the movies did have a scene where Samwise tried to come up with a poem to honor Gandalf when they were all resting up in Lothlorien.
 
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