I don't recall back so far to know how much of battling Orion and Skulltaker was choice against chance, but I would ask you how you would have handled it instead.
I would stop using rolls for general outcomes for one having us roll against the world and the world working on narrative logic, at least in these sections and for two I have us roll against a set of dc's That determine outcome rather than roll opposed . Making the rolls and outcomes more consistent .

If your complaint is that the story makes significant usage of random chance, where even important characters have a random chance of failing and being killed or captured by significant opposition if and when we choose to engage, I don't think that's fixable without tearing out the bones of the quest from game start.
This would also apply here
 
While being on the Black Ark, we've also had a lot of positive modifiers, because Hultressa was helping us, and we were not directly going up against Alyssa yet.
Yeah, as a result of all of our prepwork. Now the prepwork has gone bust, Hultressa is no longer with us and Natasha is getting tortured by proxy, which is guaranteed to be another modifier. Oh, and we have no time for making new prepwork. Meaning that the next attempt is going to be even more dice dependent then this one. Joy.
 
Pleasure cult(s?) seem to be fairly centrally organised for now, so is there any chance for remaining Khaine cults/followers to band together?

Because if they don't, they just might be screwed.
 
I would stop using rolls for general outcomes for one having us roll against the world and the world working on narrative logic, at least in these sections and for two I have us roll against a set of dc's That determine outcome rather than roll opposed . Making the rolls and outcomes more consistent .

I feel that it's (unintentionally) quite rude to suggest Torroar change the base mechanics of a quest he's been running for 8 years, just because we're uncomfortable with the outcomes of the dice rolls.

He's the GM here

And I say this while not even having read the update as in-depth as I normally do, because the events hit me like a truck as well
 
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I would stop using rolls for general outcomes for one having us roll against the world and the world working on narrative logic, at least in these sections and for two I have us roll against a set of dc's That determine outcome rather than roll opposed . Making the rolls and outcomes more consistent .

If torroar had used that system instead, and we failed to meet the DC by rolling snake eyes and consequently ended up at the same place we are now, do you think reactions from those who are upset about the result of the current update would have been better, even though the outcome was the same?
 
If torroar had used that system instead, and we failed to meet the DC by rolling snake eyes and consequently ended up at the same place we are now, do you think reactions from those who are upset about the result of the current update would have been better, even though the outcome was the same?
Yes, I at least would. As for others I am not them so I cannot say,. But I think the outcome would be less likely to be as swingy and more importantly torroar would would be more aware of chances for failure and success.
 
My annoyance with the dice rolls part, is not that it happened, but that it continued. When the dice screwed us over with Hultressa, and she made up for it with that surprise Kamazae I thought for sure, thats it. With a 141 explosion damage roll, the gang sent off in a different location that was it. Hultressia sacrificed herself to have us save her daughter, and the chaos inflicted by her death allowed us to escape in the aftermath.

But to my dismay, it continued. Instead of ending it their, he continued to roll dice afterwords even though it narratively was unnecessary and wasn't needed. Then, as those dice rolls suffered badly it nullified all of the narrative and earlier dice roll success and unceremoniously put us in a round two of combat that we neither wanted nor had a relevance to fight, before then ending it off based off of 4 rolls involving a master rune that only works on a 6+. When that obviously failed, regardless of how well everyone rolled, it didn't matter because fred failed these very specific 4 rolls, all on a 1d6, and narratively reset the entire story Ark, right back to the beginning only his canonical ending under a coven of Dark Elf sorceresses became the ending this time. Their was not even a chance to roll at freddy trying to break out of his bonds on the way, or a willpower roll to endure being burned alive to try and fight back. That I feel was where the Narrative finally overtook the dice, but at the worst possible location then near anywhere else in the scene before OR after. Had their just been a decision of ending the dice control and letting the narrative come over, anywhere prior to his forced capture, the outcome very much would have been very different. But it didn't, instead it just CONTINUED. That is my only complaint with this update, my only one.
 
My annoyance with the dice rolls part, is not that it happened, but that it continued. When the dice screwed us over with Hultressa, and she made up for it with that surprise Kamazae I thought for sure, thats it. With a 141 explosion damage roll, the gang sent off in a different location that was it. Hultressia sacrificed herself to have us save her daughter, and the chaos inflicted by her death allowed us to escape in the aftermath.

But to my dismay, it continued. Instead of ending it their, he continued to roll dice afterwords even though it narratively was unnecessary and wasn't needed. Then, as those dice rolls suffered badly it nullified all of the narrative and earlier dice roll success and unceremoniously put us in a round two of combat that we neither wanted nor had a relevance to fight, before then ending it off based off of 4 rolls involving a master rune that only works on a 6+. When that obviously failed, regardless of how well everyone rolled, it didn't matter because fred failed these very specific 4 rolls, all on a 1d6, and narratively reset the entire story Ark, right back to the beginning only his canonical ending under a coven of Dark Elf sorceresses became the ending this time. Their was not even a chance to roll at freddy trying to break out of his bonds on the way, or a willpower roll to endure being burned alive to try and fight back. That I feel was where the Narrative finally overtook the dice, but at the worst possible location then near anywhere else in the scene before OR after. Had their just been a decision of ending the dice control and letting the narrative come over, anywhere prior to his forced capture, the outcome very much would have been very different. But it didn't, instead it just CONTINUED. That is my only complaint with this update, my only one.


Rolling the dice was normal. She got them out of the temple, but they were still being pursued and had to fight through the streets.

Just go read Karak Ungor again: Torroar was rolling a lot as well there. This is nothing new to the quest. Saying it unnecessary for the narrative is just wrong here.

Can we please stop this criticism and start talking about other things.

People didn't complain about these things when things were going well.

Also, Think of the time and effort Torroar has spent on this update.

I'm not asking you to stop feeling bad, but I'd rather that Torroar will return to a thread with nicer posts for him to read.
 
@torroar
You know, can't we send some kind of magical signal to Tyrion and Co? Especially with Sadrina? The others are right that Tyrion and Malekith alike will hunt Alyssa's ass down as soon as they find out, and Deus Ex Elf Ship would make this a whole lot faster to resolve.

EDIT: Also, can we send one to Barak Varr's fleet, and the elves at Ostland, if that fails? To save Frederick, the Dwarves would send everything, and the opportunity to kill Chaos *and* Druuchi might be worth working with a few less annoying elgi.

EDIT 2: Also, would all of the magical and demonic bullshit going on, on a freaking Black Ark, be potentially easier to track? Tyrion would absolutely drop everything to rescue Eldyra, and Teclis would want to rescue Sadrina. Is there any possibility of an Asur rescue effort? Because it's clear that our escape plan isn't likely to work with things as they are, and frankly, after this, I shudder to imagine what getting through Norsca and Kislev by land would be like.

EDIT 3: What about Kessel and his fleet of Druuchi ships? If news can get out of the anarchy we caused, he could certainly help. It's been a hot minute since the battle of Salkalten, how are our friends doing on that front?

EDIT 4: There's also the Death Twins. The sheer amount of Shyish on this Ark, due to the mass slaughter, might even get their attention from all the way over there. Aren't they in Kislev? Can they link up with Alex? Is Kislev likely to be able to send a relief fleet given that their war is on land?

EDIT 5: How does magical tracking even work in Warhammer anyway? Does this Ark and all of its energies show up like a magical GPS transponder? Malekith is likely very wary of his own subordinates trying something, he would want to know where all of his Arks are at all times considering that they're floating cities unto themselves. So is he (or anyone else) capable of such a thing?
 
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The issue for me here, mechanics wise, is that it seems thst whenever our foes roll well, we get negative modifiers. When we roll well we get to roll another time. And the inverse is true. We roll poorly, we get negative modifiers. Our foes roll poorly, they get to roll again. What that means in practise is that we have to roll well AND our foes have to roll poorly, otherwise we get buried under modifiers until we lose no matter what we roll.
Kinda yes one bad roll we get in a spiral
 
Contrary to what seems to be a lot of other people, I liked this update. It reminded us of just how dangerous the Druchii are after they got their asses handed to them at Salkalten.

People are always so eager to complain about the dice not going in their favour, while forgetting about the times random chance works out to their advantage. If Freddy rolls well (or his opponent poorly) and accomplishes the impossible it's because he's just that awesome, but if he rolls poorly (or his enemies well) its bullshit dice that ruin the game.
 
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Just go read Karak Ungor again: Torroar was rolling a lot as well there. This is nothing new to the quest. Saying it unnecessary for the narrative is just wrong here.
There were a lot of complaints about that section too, an sufferered from some but not all of the problems here.


I'm not asking you to stop feeling bad, but I'd rather that Torroar will return to a thread with nicer posts for him to read.
No one has said anything particularly negative about the man himself or his writting just the mechanics and their interface with the narrative

People didn't complain about these things when things were going well.
People didn't notice these things when things were going well or if they did they did not want to bring the mood down.
Also, Think of the time and effort Torroar has spent on this update.
Irrelevant to the criticisms,. Time spent has nothing to with this, no one where is calling Torroar a hack.
 
I feel that it's (unintentionally) quite rude to suggest Torroar change the base mechanics of a quest he's been running for 8 years, just because we're uncomfortable with the outcomes of the dice rolls.

He's the GM here

And I say this while not even having read the update as in-depth as I normally do, because the events hit me like a truck as well
I feel he is more answering a question then saying torr should change a mechanic here
 
Contrary to what seems to be a lot of other people, I liked this update. It reminded us of just how dangerous the Druchii are after they got their asses handed to them at Salkalten.

People are always so eager to complain about the dice not going in their favour, while forgetting about the times random chance goes in their favour. If Freddy rolls well and accomolishes the impossible it's because he's just that awesome, but if he rolls poorly its bullshit dice that ruin the game.

I still remember my favorite most enjoyable moment in all of the quest games I've played in about the last ten years.

Gambert Rambert's duel against Skulltaker in Knight's Quest. The GM had resorted to releasing the fight in pieces, after every set of opposed dice rolls. Blow by blow, round by round, everytime we got to see another gashing wound inflicted by Skulltaker on our PC, and another blow pushing Skulltaker just a bit closer towards being banished back to the Realm of Chaos. By the middle of it I was literally shaking in anticipation of what would happen. That the dice came up so that in spite of us winning we sustained wounds so bad that they killed our PC not long after wasn't even a concern, because damn, what a way to go.

If someone dislikes so much an element of random chance, of a real possibility of actually being defeated, then the question comes to mind of why not just read standard stories rather then play a genre, quest games, that is practically defined by such? As is saying that "narrative" should dominate over dice rolls, and only doing so when the rolls turn out poorly but not when they turn out well, comes across as just wanting the PC to have a guaranteed win rather then the game having an element of chance, which to me at least removes one of the most engrossing elements of quest games.
 
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It feels like the last year and a half were pointless.

I was there for Karak Ungor and I've never felt like this during that.

I just want to get off this fucking Ark already.

Edit: At this point I'd seriously consider voting to off Frederick in exchange for Alith Anar nicking and returning Brain Wounder as a thank you for wrecking an Ark.
 
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I applaud Terroar's willingness to let the dice fall where they may. That is the ebtire point of quests. If it was a more "sheparded" story, we would never have ended up in the crazy places we have.
 
I still remember my favorite most enjoyable moment in all of the quest games I've played in about the last ten years.

Gambert Rambert's duel against Skulltaker in Knight's Quest. The GM had resorted to releasing the fight in pieces, after every set of opposed dice rolls. Blow by blow, round by round, everytime we got to see another gashing wound inflicted by Skulltaker on our PC, and another blow pushing Skulltaker just a bit closer towards being banished back to the Realm of Chaos. By the middle of it I was literally shaking in anticipation of what would happen. That the dice came up so that in spite of us winning we sustained wounds so bad that they killed our PC not long after wasn't even a concern, because damn, what a way to go.

If someone dislikes so much an element of random chance, of a real possibility of actually being defeated, then the question comes to mind of why not just read standard stories rather then play a genre, quest games, that is practically defined by such? As is saying that "narrative" should dominate over dice rolls, and only doing so when the rolls turn out poorly but not when they turn out well, comes across as just wanting the PC to have a guaranteed win rather then the game having an element of chance, which to me at least removes one of the most engrossing elements of quest games.
It is not just about losing. It about the fact that this entire situation ultimately came down to random dice not player choice. And I am not just talking about this update.

The entire Ark Arc came as a result of random dice during battle of Salkakten, when we were unable to catch up to Tulllaris before he got on the Ark. There was a vote technically, but the option not to go was flat out crossed out. Sure, I doubt it would have won, but that way choice was not in the cards period.

But it gets worse, because battle of Salkalten only happened because we pissed off Druchii. How did we piss them off? Albion arc. How did we get on Albion? Magnus literally rolled 100 on culling the Beastmen the same turn we were sending support to Albion. We didn't chose to send him to Albion and set off this entire chain of events.

And now, we are at risk of losing our MC, his wife, several of our friends, and all of our well earned gear including the bloody Runefang, because a few dice rolls happened in an Arc we never chose to initiate, did not have an even theoretical choice to not engage with and apparently have to rely exclusively on having great rolls repeatedly, in a row, to survive, because of how limited our options are to shape the situation in our favour. This is the issue. We, the players, have made no choices, to be here nor do we have any choices that matter in the face of dice. At least we voted to go to Karak Ungor.
 
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Rolling the dice was normal. She got them out of the temple, but they were still being pursued and had to fight through the streets.

Just go read Karak Ungor again: Torroar was rolling a lot as well there. This is nothing new to the quest. Saying it unnecessary for the narrative is just wrong here.

Can we please stop this criticism and start talking about other things.

People didn't complain about these things when things were going well.

Also, Think of the time and effort Torroar has spent on this update.

I'm not asking you to stop feeling bad, but I'd rather that Torroar will return to a thread with nicer posts for him to read.
Irrelevant and only makes my point still stand. It was because of constant rolling of dices only things throughout that Mountain that it led to too much bloat and necessary events that did not feel needed, but forced do to dice rolls before hand making it so that despite being locked away in a coma for several weeks Freddy helped fight off several Eshin assasins and go roaring back into the fight, when that made no sense narratively for a couple of eshin slaves to do, instead of just going after Magnus and try to kill him instead as he took over command of his father after getting eaten by a giant Squig.
In fact, that brings up my entire dissatisfaction over how and where Fate and fortune points get brought up throughout the game, and how whimsical at times the reasoning for why you get a point in-game, for a "Narrative Reason" where in you have things like winning against Josef Bugman in a drink off, fighting and true killing a demon prince of Nurgle, fighting and surviving a bloodthirster, killing the Necrah Overlord of his entire Bloodline, all of the enemies he fought and killed in Ungor, Laurelon, Athel Loren, Orion and Drycha, and that all gives you 1 Fate point? Your son, who did significantly less then that in Arthur, instead not only gets 3 Fate pints for massive things related to his personal god, and yet the same cannot be done in return to us for our services as well?Particularly, when our achievements are often far grander or bigger in scale either in setting or in character then his? Or with Sadrina only having 2 fate points as a millennia old Bodyguard of the Everqueen of Ulthuan?

My one and only complaint as fair criticism, and that is the only thing like it or not, is that the dice are taking over too much with no amount of sense given one way or the other beyond justifying why the results of picking that dice roll matter and will be continued with, instead of taking a step back, thinking over what makes sense versus contrived and ending it where it causes the most amount of problems for QM and ending off at a certain threshold of dice results that doesn't feel narratively silly or bad for you, or the audience that loves your work and that you feel compelled to make better in return for that love and praise. If you want to make things feel good for torroar, then having some way to air out grievances over some disagreements over which matters more, either the dice or the story, without needing to be shushed on the fear it makes the QM feel more miserable about his day, is not going to make it better, your just going to be bottling it up for other people and their feelings on the matter until it gets worse.
There were a lot of complaints about that section too, an sufferered from some but not all of the problems here.



No one has said anything particularly negative about the man himself or his writting just the mechanics and their interface with the narrative


People didn't notice these things when things were going well or if they did they did not want to bring the mood down.

Irrelevant to the criticisms,. Time spent has nothing to with this, no one where is calling Torroar a hack.
This, I have nothing but respect and admiration to both the man and his work in writing, many times over. The only thing I am annoyed about that I am even bothering to keep talking off this late and long into the night and morning of my day, is where and when it feels dissatisfying to keep rolling over on things that neither need it, nor benefit from it outside of how it can effect the player's enjoyment over the work/update as a whole. And as far as I'm concerned, if your going to keep dice around like that in order to determine when it feels satisfy to stop off to make the audience feel informed or sufficent wowed with a particular emotion, then your going to run into problems very fast.
 
It's a natural reaction for people to get annoyed and complain, because it means that they cared about this piece and immersed themselves in it from a favorable perspective.
And while the dice roll may be an absolute edge, it's a creation, and it's hard to accept that it's okay for a creation to have its verisimilitude broken by a series of dice rolls that have built up a narrative over a long period of time.
And that's why people think it's a problem, and that's why they complain and ask for fixes.

And there's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, and asking for a modification to the way things are done is a legitimate request as a reader of this creation, after all, we are participants and consumers in QM's quest.
At least that's how I see it.

Of course, it is QM's discretion and QM's right to accept it, so if QM refuses, we will all accept it without complaint, even if we think it's unfortunate.

Well.... is also a difference in perspective on this quest.
Neither side is unconditionally right.
 
The entire Ark Arc came as a result of random dice during battle of Salkakten, when we were unable to catch up to Tulllaris before he got on the Ark. There was a vote technically, but the option not to go was flat out crossed out. Sure, I doubt it would have won, but that way choice was not in the cards period.
The option to do nothing was crossed out, but we did vote to prioritize speed over force, to split our forces between the Arks, to lead the fliers on their own rather than stick with the main force, and then to koolaid man into the Ark with only the other fliers for backup, at which point we got surrounded and captured. At every point we chose to up the risks and gamble for bigger payoff.
 
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It is not just about losing. It about the fact that this entire situation ultimately came down to random dice not player choice. And I am not just talking about this update.
The entire Ark Arc came as a result of random dice during battle of Salkakten, when we were unable to catch up to Tulllaris before he got on the Ark. There was a vote technically, but the option not to go was flat out crossed out. Sure, I doubt it would have won, but that way choice was not in the cards.
But it gets worse, because battle of Salkalten only happened because we pissed off Druchii. How did we piss them off? Albion arc. How did we get on Albion? Magnus literally rolled 100 on culling the Beastmen the same turn we were sending support to Albion. We didn't chose to send him to Albion and set off this entire chain of events.

And now, we are at risk of losing our MC, his wife, several of our friends, and all of our well earned gear including the bloody Runefang, because a few dice rolls happened in an Arc we never chose to inituate, did not have an even theoretical choice to not engage with and apparently have to rely exclusively on having great rolls repeatedly, in a row to survive, because of how limited our options are to change the situation. This is the issue. We, the players, have made no choices, to be here nor do we have choices that matter in the face of dice. At least we voted to go to Karak Ungor.
We could have, you know, played a PC that commands from the backline rather then fighting at the front against an enemy with a reputation of kidnapping people into their slave ships, if we didn't want to risk being kidnapped into their slave ships? When you make a point of fighting on the frontlines, there's a chance you will die, or as the case may be captured.

This is particularly ironic given how the example I used of th duel with Skulltaker only happened due to the PC being enslaved by the Druchii and forced to fight as a gladiator in their arenas, which happend after he took the front to fight them when he suddenly encountered their raiding forces during an expedition to Lustria. Had we not taken several riskier options when fighting against the Druchii that involved putting us at a higher risk of capture we probably wouldn't been captured and turned into a gladiator slave meant to fight for the Druchii's amusement, where our PC found his death, either.

It was horrible for our PC, but damn if it wasn't an awesome adventure.

It's a natural reaction for people to get annoyed and complain, because it means that they cared about this piece and immersed themselves in it from a favorable perspective.
And while the dice roll may be an absolute edge, it's a creation, and it's hard to accept that it's okay for a creation to have its verisimilitude broken by a series of dice rolls that have built up a narrative over a long period of time.
See that's the thing, the complaints about the dice come across as wanting to take away the quest's verisimilitude. Surprises and seemingly random chance are a thing. Being defeated is a thing. Someone's in Fredrick's situation, faced as he is with being captive on a Black Ark against powerful Druchii, being defeated and failing to escape is an entirely realistic outcome when faced with such opposition. It is the calls for the PC to seemingly, "narratively", be guaranteed a victory that come across as being opposed to verisimilitude.

And that's why people think it's a problem, and that's why they complain and ask for fixes.

And there's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, and asking for a modification to the way things are done is a legitimate request as a reader of this creation, after all, we are participants and consumers in QM's quest.
At least that's how I see it.
Right, and much as there's nothing wrong with people wanting to express an opinion that things aren't working properly, there's also nothing wrong with people who think otherwise expressing an opinion that they disagree and that they like things the way they are.
 
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