Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Altom said:
Not just lack. Undoing of a lot of progress we made. Something I genuinely do not remember happening in Ungor.
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Chaos dwarf ambush was similar situation with much much direr consequencues.
Albion was no better. Wath makes this worse is that we were invested un Hultresa & she pulled a runer.
We are too used that our alies are ride or die till bitter end.
 
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I think a lot of it was having her be a part of the cult which was. a decision made by torroar either directly or via choosing to roll for it. It was an unneeded complication that opened the door to this sort thing happening and if I did not know better I would say was made purely to subvert player expectations and create a "oh shit moment" for players.

To be frank reading the room of the forum, it probably should not have been included even if planned from the start.
 
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Abyssal_light said:
I think a lot of it was having her be a part of the cult which was. a decision made by torroar either directly or via rolls. It was an unneeded complication that opened the door to this sort thing happening and if I did not know better I would say was made purely to subvert player expectations and create a "oh shit moment" for players.

To be frank reading the room of the forum, it probably should not have been included even if planned from the start.
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Actually, no. Her being part of the cult explained many things. Not only her weird actions after the retreat, but also why she was crazy enough to stage a coup during an assault which wasn't going great: she's one of the main reasons the Druchii lost so many troops.

Almost nobody on the forum complained about her being part of the cult. Instead we're just feeling sad and worried about the courrent situation.
 
First of all, I want it clearly understood that I have nothing but the utmost respect for Tor, and give him mad Props for always keeping it real.
This is not critique in any way.
This is off-the-cuff, immediate, visceral reaction, nothing more, nothing less.
All heart, no brain involved.
I'm not lambasting, I am letting out the poison of frustration, so it does not linger and fester inside.
No more, no less.
I am not being rational, I am not trying to be hurtful, I am simply being emotional and unhappy and expressing it. Please, no one make anything more out of it.

So, again, much kudos, mad props, you are the best Tor, and please, please, please, do not take my following words to heart. Heck, please, skip them entirely, they are not meant for you, only the other questers.




This update was frustrating.
In very real ways it feels like our ability to make any sort of meaningful decisions in the face of disaster was sacrificed on the altar of getting 'beeg' update out, and that is not a happy state of affairs.
I would have preferred an ability to send Freddy out to die, rather than prolonging this damnable state of affairs.
It feels like the dice had been handmade by Will Wheaton to make them especially cursed just to make double-special sure this arc is maximum misery.
 
Fuck it, moratorium is over

[X] A, B, C

Pick up the artillery first because iirc we're rather short atm, then work our way round E-SE-S

[X] Focus On Freeing Other Slaves, Combat Capable Ones

We just got betrayed by the only Druchii we thought we could actually trust, working with the anti-Alyssan ones won't end well. Attacking the Alyssan forces might work but I'd rather have a bit more force on our side considering it looks like we'll have to storm the central tower to rescue Freddy and Eldyra
 
Lerac said:
Actually, no. Her being part of the cult explained many things. Not only her weird actions after the retreat, but also why she was crazy enough to stage a coup during an assault which wasn't going great: she's one of the main reasons the Druchii lost so many troops.

Almost nobody on the forum complained about her being part of the cult. Instead we're just feeling sad and worried about the courrent situation.
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I disagree with you on the first part, because it is not about it making sense but player entertainment/engagement.
As far the second I neither feel sad or particularly concerned, but rather slightly exasperated and bored/want to move/press the skip to next scene. This like the karak has all but drained my ability to care because of the stalling out, because of a years worth of work going out the window. Irregardless of it being the dices fault. Sometimes things should not be left to the dice or weighted so heavily to the dice.
 
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Well....... regardless of my personal opinion, the situation has already happened and it would be a burden on the QM to talk about it further.

However, my personal wish is that in the future, some situations would be better handled by not rolling the dice and letting the narrative do the work for you.

I think this would prevent the low dice rolls from coming out at critical times in quick succession and ruining the mood, and make the story more believable for everyone.

.....This happens a lot in real life, and the original franchise also had some huge events due to dice rolls, but this is more of a novel.

In TTRPG, dice are everything, but I personally think this work is more like a novel, so I think we should take Verisimilitude and proceed with it.
 
Finally finished reading. By Sigmar ,and Widow I too I guess, can't wait for Natasha and co to save Fred and Eldyra. I wonder if Hultressa will try to cook something on the background. Also Alyssa seems to be going even more bonkers, maybe with enough push some of the coven will rise against her. Thanks for the update torroar.

torroar said:
It is another for this place, with
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I think this sentence is cut. Almost as cut as thread's hopes of leaving the arc :V
 
NutMaster said:
Finally finished reading. By Sigmar ,and Widow I too I guess, can't wait for Natasha and co to save Fred and Eldyra.
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Maybe our third rescue attempt will work, but atm it seems more likely for it to go wrong at a critical moment, Freddy to be freed but Natasha end up captured

Oleg-14191 said:
Civil wars are usually nasty and dirty, how bad is it gonna be for the Ark?



Relatively clean, US style with 2 sides?

Or everybody betrays everybody, Russian style, with nasty purges after?
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Russian but messier.
 
minsu kim said:
However, my personal wish is that in the future, some situations would be better handled by not rolling the dice and letting the narrative do the work for you.

I think this would prevent the low dice rolls from coming out at critical times in quick succession and ruining the mood, and make the story more believable for everyone.

.....This happens a lot in real life, and the original franchise also had some huge events due to dice rolls, but this is more of a novel.

In TTRPG, dice are everything, but I personally think this work is more like a novel, so I think we should take Verisimilitude and proceed with it
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The thing is, things going wrong like that because of dice rolls actually is very believable for this quest.

Bad dice rolls have caused Oskar and half of Ostland to die, Anna's soul to get frozen over and Frederick to almost have lost his soul to Khorne in KU

I was already thinking that most people were feeling to optimistic about people being able to escape that easily.

This is a quest, not warhammer fan-fiction. Dice always have huge influence on what happens.

Fenrir44 said:
Wouldn't go has far as letting freddy die but there some parts that where hard to take especially the heavy modifiers in the enemy favor

Made a average roll worse which leads to a down spiral
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Those modifiers were realistic considering the situation they were in. Remember what kind of things they're up against

Abyssal_light said:
I disagree with you on the first part, because it is not about it making sense but player entertainment/engagement.
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The thing is, like I just said, I didn't see people complaining about Alyssa being part of the cult. In fact, people really liked that update.

People can feel sad about what's happening, I certainly do, but I feel it's wrong to ask Torroar to do things otherwise just because of that.

The exact same kind of complaints happened after their capture on the ark

To be honest, before this chapter got published, I was already thinking these kind of complaints would once again arise if things'd go wrong.
 
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It's a bit rich to complain about the dice when they turn on us, when the same dice have given to us many of the quest's crowning scenes. Freddy has survived the likes of Orion and Skulltaker through, yes, the patronage of extraordinary powers and heroic allies- but also because we rolled astoundingly.

If not for spates of 90+ rolls at the perfect moments, Freddy would have and should have died many years ago!
 
Lerac said:
The thing is, like I just said, I didn't see people complaining about Alyssa being part of the cult. In fact, people really liked that update.
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I liked it to and feel it was well foreshadowed that does not mean I think was a good call or not the root cause of this situation and the voters feelings.
Lerac said:
People can feel sad about what's happening, I certainly do, but I feel it's wrong to ask Torroar to do things otherwise just because of that.

The exact same kind of complaints happened after their capture on the ark
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I did not complain there, due to it being a result of player risk taking and a reasonable out come for spending a fate point.
Lerac said:
To be honest, before this chapter got published, I was already thinking these kind of complaints would once again arise if things'd go wrong
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I rather dislike this statement due to the implication that the players are wining because things went wrong. And not having legitimate complaints or criticisms about the running of these extended sections or this arc/scene in particular. I don't know if you meant it this way but comes off condescending/dismissive to me.
 
lancelot said:
...Well I'm glad I held off on reading anything but reactions once Fred counter attacked the arks, I can just lie to myself that it all worked out. Toroar I love your writing but putting dice rolls before narrative is still a terrible idea. It looks like I'll just leave this here and check back every couple of months in case there is a miracle and everyone escapes.
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No offense but complaints like this seem kind of lame. I mean, what is the narrative? Was there some narrative that said we just have to win? It's particularly so given we're playing a CK2 based game. The random numbers generator suddenly throwing out snake eyes when your PC is in combat and forcing you to to move to playing your heir is practically one of the defining properties of the game.

As is some measure of random chance in quest games is pretty much a standard property of the genre. If one dislikes it so much, why not just read a regular story instead?
 
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Shine said:
It's a bit rich to complain about the dice when they turn on us, when the same dice have given to us many of the quest's crowning scenes. Freddy has survived the likes of Orion and Skulltaker through, yes, the patronage of extraordinary powers and heroic allies- but also because we rolled astoundingly.

If not for spates of 90+ rolls at the perfect moments, Freddy would have and should have died many years ago!
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I was not a big fan of those either to be frank, and its important to remember those sections only got so dire due to bad dice rolls too. Which why I said I feel dice have too much control over these sections, both positive and negative.

Imperious said:
No offense but complaints like this seem kind of lame. I mean, what is the narrative? Was there some narrative that said we just have to win? It's particularly so given we're playing a CK2 based game. The random numbers generator suddenly throwing out snake eyes when your PC is in combat and forcing you to to move to playing your heir is practically one of the defining properties of the game.
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But it also does not have as much focus on the individual as this, it would be more accurate to call this a nation builder quest with character driven interludes , more than a CK2 one.
 
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The issue for me here, mechanics wise, is that it seems thst whenever our foes roll well, we get negative modifiers. When we roll well we get to roll another time. And the inverse is true. We roll poorly, we get negative modifiers. Our foes roll poorly, they get to roll again. What that means in practise is that we have to roll well AND our foes have to roll poorly, otherwise we get buried under modifiers until we lose no matter what we roll.
 
Abyssal_light said:
But it also does not have as much focus on the individual as this, it would be more accurate to call this a nation builder quest with character driven interludes , more than a CK2 one.
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Yeah but even non CK2 quests have dice rolls. That property is basically ubiquitous. It's just that complaints about there being dice rolls stand out even more when the quest is even stated to be based on a game famous about how lives and fates can end up suddenly decided by the dice.

As is, what is the narrative that was supposed to supercede the dice here? Were we supposed to be "narratively" guaranteed a victory?
 
Abyssal_light said:
I was not a big fan of those either to be frank, and its important to remember those sections only got so dire due to bad dice rolls too. Which why I said I feel dice have too much control over these sections, both positive and negative.
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Although I personally dislike the 1d100 system this quest, and many Warhammer quests, make use of, I do think these stories being spinning tops of multiple parties each hoping to make more saves than their rivals is just… genre convention.

If your complaint is that the story makes significant usage of random chance, where even important characters have a random chance of failing and being killed or captured by significant opposition if and when we choose to engage, I don't think that's fixable without tearing out the bones of the quest from game start.

I don't recall back so far to know how much of battling Orion and Skulltaker was choice against chance, but I would ask you how you would have handled it instead.

Altom said:
The issue for me here, mechanics wise, is that it seems thst whenever our foes roll well, we get negative modifiers. When we roll well we get to roll another time. And the inverse is true. We roll poorly, we get negative modifiers. Our foes roll poorly, they get to roll again. What that means in practise is that we have to roll well AND our foes have to roll poorly, otherwise we get buried under modifiers until we lose no matter what we roll.
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In this case, I think it made sense. Kill one daemon or elf, and there's a dozen more right behind- while there's only a handful of us.

The price of being egregiously outnumbered.
 
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Altom said:
The issue for me here, mechanics wise, is that it seems thst whenever our foes roll well, we get negative modifiers. When we roll well we get to roll another time. And the inverse is true. We roll poorly, we get negative modifiers. Our foes roll poorly, they get to roll again. What that means in practise is that we have to roll well AND our foes have to roll poorly, otherwise we get buried under modifiers until we lose no matter what we roll.
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While being on the Black Ark, we've also had a lot of positive modifiers, because Hultressa was helping us, and we were not directly going up against Alyssa yet.

Shine said:
Although I personally dislike the 1d100 system this quest, and many Warhammer quests, make use of, I do think these stories being spinning tops of multiple parties each hoping to make more saves than their rivals is just… genre convention.

If your complaint is that the story makes significant usage of random chance, where even important characters have a random chance of failing and being killed or captured by significant opposition if and when we choose to engage, I don't think that's fixable without tearing out the bones of the quest from game start.

I don't recall back so far to know how much of battling Orion and Skulltaker was choice against chance, but I would ask you how you would have handled it instead.



In this case, I think it made sense. Kill one daemon or elf, and there's a dozen more right behind- while there's only a handful of us.

The price of being egregiously outnumbered.
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This so much!
 
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