Saying that Ancient Hellenes did not mean 'Barbaroi' to mean uncivilized savages absolutely is whitewashing.
They meant it exactly like that.

I just wouldn't call it whitewashing, merely incorrect. Most ancient languages and cultures were dicks like this, this wasn't exclusive to the Hellenes. Sanskrit did the exact same thing with the word barbara, and other languages had similar terms that mocked foreign languages. Like 90% of ancient human civilizations pulled these kinds of rude shenanigans
 
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I just wouldn't call it whitewashing, merely incorrect. Most ancient languages and cultures were dicks like this, this wasn't exclusive to the Hellenes. Sanskrit did the exact same thing with the word barbara, and other languages had similar terms that mocked foreign languages. Like 90% of ancient human civilizations pulled these kinds of rude shenanigans
I think Sanskrit used the term "Mleccha", not "barbara"
 
There is not much of a point in berating the norms and culture of past civilizations. Especially when their virtues directly lead to the norms, ethics and views we have today. It's a misguided standard and often used to discredit the achievements of the past because their societies do not perfectly conform with whatever we wish them to.

Greeks and Romans were slavers, but they still started the thought of democracy within Western Europe. Their societies weren't equal but the concept of equality and rights existed at all. That's the important part.

These concepts were just bound towards their own society, which is understandable. Why should a person who doesn't have the same duties and values or gives little respect to the norms of a society be given the same rights, yes? That they did it at all was a great achievement.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't draw our moral lines, but defining their culture and influence based on descriptors and singular words, while calling other stuff white-washing is nonsense.

Bad things don't automatically invalidate good things.They can coexist.
 
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Pretty much just Kislev, at this point.

It used to be Bretonnia, Kislev, and to a more reduced and lesser extent Araby/Tilea/Estalia.

But honestly? Way too exhausting. I don't do the GeNPC thing anymore, and I stripped it down all the way to just Kislev at this point. I only have so much energy these days.

Yup. And yet if your muse caresses you the right way you may end up with a rebuild of the system down the line. Such is one of the paradoxes of writing.

For fuck's sake I still can't write anything out properly because my own interests in writing demand that I build an entire system in which I can write first and after decades of working on it I can only now, in the last year or two, see the outline of a functional system for me to write in.

I haven't even started building and testing the blasted thing yet.

Perhaps. I've talked about the Kislev psuedo-quest framing for notes and progression stuff before. And I've also mentioned how enemies get intrigue rolls and stuff on their own too. So it's not like it's that much of a 'reveal' at this point.

But yeah, hopefully going forward, I won't have to try and explain everything in too much detail.

Only ever explain as much as you feel is needed. There is only so much time and more should be spent on what you want to do then on what you feel you have to do.

So I actually have a question about vampires, unrelated to the whole kids thing; does it have to be human blood that vampires drink, or can they live off of animal blood just fine, and it just doesn't taste as good? Would Taal or some of the other goods be cool with a vampire that hunted animals for the blood, and then gave the meat to villages? What about a vampire butcher?

Go back to the end of the Vampire War and there is Taal talking about Johanna as someone he will keep an eye on/test.
 
Speaking of Vampires:
The Vampire Coast has become a major faction by virtue of us cleansing Sylvania. Would be interesting to see how it plays out. We already had Slaneeshi Warbands raiding and raping their merry way through Estalia. Wouldn't be surprised if the Old World gets attacked by undead pirates. Especially now that the Red Pirate thought it would be a great idea to go who knows where... (Manaan please let it be Ulthuan. Just for the lolz.)

Hm...
Mousillon is still connected to the sea. It would be an interesting development if the Vampire Coast occupued it and turned it into a beachhead. Then again, I don't want Roland to have more problems once he finally finishes his Quest. It's definitely an option though.

What Vampire faction does Luther Harkon fall under? He was born in the ancient Lahmian tribe, but got the Blood Kiss from a Blood Dragon, yet doesn't seem to have any relations with them?
 
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Speaking of Vampires:
The Vampire Coast has become a major faction by virtue of us cleansing Sylvania. Would be interesting to see how it plays out. We already had Slaneeshi Warbands raiding and raping their merry way through Estalia. Wouldn't be surprised if the Old World gets attacked by undead pirates. Especially now that the Red Pirate thought it would be a great idea to go who knows where... (Manaan please let it be Ulthuan. Just for the lolz.)

Hm...
Mousillon is still connected to the sea. It would be an interesting development if the Vampire Coast occupued it and turned it into a beachhead. Then again, I don't want Roland to have more problems once he finally finishes his Quest. It's definitely an option though.

What Vampire faction does Luther Harkon fall under? He was born in the anxient Lahmian tribe, but got the Blood Kiss from a Blood Dragon, yet doesn't seem to have any relations with them?

His own, presumably. Blood Dragons in general tend to be a pretty disorganized bloodline whose members tend to go on their lonesome and do their thing.

Really in general the only bloodline that has centralized leadership these days are the Lahmians. The Strigoi have been shattered as an organized power ever since the fall of Strigos, the Von Carsteins have been disunited since Vlad died and his sons started fighting each other for the right to rule before they started dying one by one during the later vampire wars, the Blood Dragons tend to be lone murderhobos searching for good fights with the exception of stuff like Wallach ocassionally calling the team back and the Nechrarcs probably aren't doing too well in terms of organization ever since Melkhior killed W'soran only to then be beaten by Zacharias who has now been killed by us.

In Liber Necris Manfred even states outright that he considers the Lahmians' greatest power to be how organized and united they are compared to the other bloodlines.
 
Honestly the Lahmians being the strongest faction doesn't surprise me at all, even when you disregard the organizational issues of the other ones. BDs and Necrarchs are so martially and magically focused that they're probably pretty easy victims to intrigue attacks, and while Von Carsteins are the Everyman vamps sorta they'd probably lose in the long run (without Vlad anyway) since their strength is having a bit of a strength in a little bit of everything. And the Strigoi are just kind of a joke with their devolution tbh so who cares about them. Intrigue is scary man.
 
So I actually have a question about vampires, unrelated to the whole kids thing; does it have to be human blood that vampires drink, or can they live off of animal blood just fine, and it just doesn't taste as good? Would Taal or some of the other goods be cool with a vampire that hunted animals for the blood, and then gave the meat to villages? What about a vampire butcher?

Vampires can drink the blood of things other then humans but that is not the reason the human Gods really hate them. The reason they hate them is that they monstrous abominations that have to drink souls to retain even a bit of sanity and are very hard to put down for good with it being possible to resurrect ones that have been dead for hundreds of years as we see with Manfred in the Gotrek and Felix novel. They are perversion of humans body and soul created by using the energy associated with the Dark Gods and the corrupting part of the warp known as Dhar. As we saw when Taal asked us if Johanna was still herself after we stood by and let her become a Vampire he decided not to destroy her because we vouched for her. Sigmar I suspect likes Genivive because she has manage to keep most of her humanity and hates the thing she has been turned into. Plus she was still able to show and feel real love which is rare as hell for some one transformed into one of the Undead monsters.

His own, presumably. Blood Dragons in general tend to be a pretty disorganized bloodline whose members tend to go on their lonesome and do their thing.

Really in general the only bloodline that has centralized leadership these days are the Lahmians. The Strigoi have been shattered as an organized power ever since the fall of Strigos, the Von Carsteins have been disunited since Vlad died and his sons started fighting each other for the right to rule before they started dying one by one during the later vampire wars, the Blood Dragons tend to be lone murderhobos searching for good fights with the exception of stuff like Wallach ocassionally calling the team back and the Nechrarcs probably aren't doing too well in terms of organization ever since Melkhior killed W'soran only to then be beaten by Zacharias who has now been killed by us.

In Liber Necris Manfred even states outright that he considers the Lahmians' greatest power to be how organized and united they are compared to the other bloodlines.

And with Manfred now beyond all but one beings ability to bring back to life the Von Carsteins are going to be disorganized for a long while yet.
 
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It's weird they all seem to go mad in similar ways, mind.

That's a result of cross-generational purposeful trauma and treatment thanks to the Lahmians. They really put some elbow grease into ruining the unlives of the Strigoi, managing to uncompromisingly shit on just about 100% of all Strigoi for a really, really long time. No other vampire group would let them in, and would attack them or kick them away, and the Lahmians would make sure every human group knew about them when they tried to infiltrate or just be in hiding. Most Strigoi are older generations already, because they very rarely spread their bloodline further. But all Strigoi were utterly ruined by the loss of Strigos but could have recovered...if the other Bloodlines didn't go all in on fucking them over continually for centuries.

The Strigoi became so terrified of exposure and extermination that they were forced to live in dark, secret places, far from Humans and civilisation, and they fed only on indigents and hermits, lepers and Ghouls, or most usually, vermin and the already dead. In a century, the great kingdom of Strigos was no more, and its once great princes turned to yelping dogs, hiding in the shadows and stealing scraps.

But it is also noted that the Strigoi come from Ushoran. And like all the Bloodlines, they take inherent traits from the 1st Gen. And that Ushoran was never as good at leadership as Vashanesh/Vlad, nor as skilled as Abhorash, but that he was straight up incredibly powerful even as a mortal. Pure hardcore strength.

It is the lifestyle, though, that is the main thing:

The lifestyle that forced them into the dark corners of the world has also driven them deeper and deeper into their own dark natures. The more they dwell in the shadows and the bowels of the earth, the more they come to resemble shades and beasts. All pretence of their humanity has fallen away, leaving only the Vampire hunger and the pure essence of the predator, shaping their flesh to better hunt, kill, and feed. Their bodies curve and bend, their claws become harder and sharper than steel, their fangs grow longer and far more deadly. The most distorted fall onto all fours, their legs and spine twisted, and spikes protrude from their backs. Their ears become pointed like a bat's, and their mouths extend out like that of some sort of daemonic wolf. As time passes, they no longer resemble anything remotely Human; instead, theyare creatures of some deformed nightmare. Eventually, their mind also follows suit, slipping slowly away from their aristocratic delusions, until all that is left is the vague memory of absolute power and the limitless rage at having lost it.

^ That right there is the main sticking point for the Strigoi. It is, I think, entirely possible that if sufficiently hounded and ruined to the sheer inhumanely petty and determined effort of Neferata against Ushoran's Bloodline, that other vampires of other bloodlines could reach this state. If, that is, they managed to stay alive that long. It's the darkest expression of the vampiric predatory abomination which Neferata created, and it took many hard decades to centuries of being hounded literally every second out of any stretch of civilization which reduced the Strigoi and began to overall traumatize and affect their entire Bloodline as a group into being what they are now. At this point, its even noted that when the Strigoi grant the Kiss, which is very rare, those newly sired Strigoi literally immediately start shifting/changing/degenerating just like their Sires into their malformed states.

That's how badly Neferata screwed them over.

What Vampire faction does Luther Harkon fall under?

By Bloodline, he's very technically a Blood Dragon, I suppose. I don't think Abhorash would have changed him, but his brother is possible.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Aside from the Strigoi...and the Necrarchs...and the Jade-Blooded...and the Mahtmasi...

Okay, for the Blood Dragons, Von Carsteins, and Lahmians, there's a lot more crossover between them in terms of temperament and abilities. They have to actively strive to lean one way or the other, however, for that to really mean anything. The majority of the vampire captains under Harkon, for instance, would be declared 'Von Carstein' by bloodline, with the necromancy and raising and leadership and what not going by their usual personalities and behaviors and skill-sets. Harkon, too, even without his whole non-magic field thing going on, was definitely a lot closer to a Von Carstein in temperament/behavior/abilities/methods than a Blood Dragon or Lahmian or any of the others. And so on.

I mean, if you really, really go hardcore into magic and stop feeding and just do the Dhar thing, I imagine given long enough any vampire could slowly devolve into Necrarch-y, but its a bit wiggly.

To reference Night's Dark Masters again:

The blood of Vampires contains more than just strength and hunger. The skills and powers of the First Children are passed down into each generation, giving great strength and ancient magical ability in all of their descendants. Blood Gifts encompass the various powers a mortal gains upon transforming into a Vampire. Vampires of particular bloodlines are more likely to gain some Blood Gifts over others, but the lines have been muddied since the time of the first seven Vampires, and thus, traits of different lines have a tendency to manifest in unexpected places.

So it is definitely not impossible for vampires nominally of one bloodline to find themselves leaning towards another.
 
So a sufficiently isolated Strigoi line that did not get screwed over wouldn't be as monstrous as current Strigoi.
That sounds like quest material. Especially if the quest goal was to revitalize the Strigoi bloodline.
 
There isn't though. That's the thing. Ushoran concentrated the entirety of his Bloodline into Strigos, and even if there were a few outside on ranging missions he'd called them all back to defend the nation when it was under uber attack, and so Neferata tracked every single one of the survivors down when they fled after it fell, and it was only after centuries and centuries that the world had changed enough that it was a bit harder to track them. Literally even now, Lahmians enjoy pointing out Strigoi to human governments and hunter groups and the like.

I mean, sure, you could finagle out a reason for one to have not been there, for some reason, but then you'd run into Neferata and the Lahmians poring over the records kept in Strigos to find out where that other Strigoi was...it's a whole thing. Obviously there's a path there to handwave that survival, but even if they did, if the Lahmians ever ever caught wind of a particularly strong very very tough vampire that didn't very carefully make sure that they were definitely a Blood Dragon or something...engh.

And even then, vamps can somewhat tell, I think, sometimes. At higher levels, certainly.

Back in Cathay, for instance, Johanna was immediately sniffed out as a weird mutt thing thanks to the Dragon-Blood of An coursing through her, whereas Genevieve was identified as a Lahmian straight out even if by that point in terms of temperament/abilities/etc. Genevieve was closer to a Von Carstein.

It is, after all, in the blood.
 
In theory, how far would such a hypothetical Strigoi survivor have to flee to evade the Neferata-sponsored persecution?

Across the ocean to the Western Continents? Far south, beyond the deserts? Far east, into Cathay or even beyond?
 
In theory, how far would such a hypothetical Strigoi survivor have to flee to evade the Neferata-sponsored persecution?

Across the ocean to the Western Continents? Far south, beyond the deserts? Far east, into Cathay or even beyond?
The problem as I see it is that the Neferata know where the Strigoi ARE after Strigos falls, and from there commands more resources and power then the Strigoi do and thus can always match their efforts, so it would be less a case of 'outrun the Lahmians' and more 'don't let the Lahmians know where you are' which, given the active hunting Vampires need to do to survive, and the Lahmians being so good at the intrigue stuff and likely good at finding things…

And as I understand it, it's kind of a psychic wound thing- sure you COULD have a Strigoi run and wipe out their records but…
For a Strigoi to do that, and then hear about Strigos, it would mean either being sent away in exile, so disgraced you weren't even summoned for that most desperate defense, or running away from Strigos, your home country, in it's hour of need, just to save your own skin… Which kind of suggests it'd bring you down massively. Add onto that the need to STAY hidden or get hounded and killed…
It almost feels to me like it's be as bad as actually being at Strigos. It's the hounding and forced to flee into the shadows, that wears away at your pride and values in favor of survival, that destroys everything that's not the primal hunger in all vampires. That's what makes the Strigoi do beastial, because their humanity is denied them…
What I wonder, is if the Strigoi could, if treated nicely enough for long enough, regain whatever they were like pre-Strigoi, or if the influence of Dhar is clear and once you fall you cannot rise again, doomed to always be a beast…
 
*COUGH*

[CANON] Distant Kings Under Jade Skies - torroar <- June 17, 2016

"Two, if I would count the one who is oh so far away. Hmmph," the ruin's inhabitant rumbled again.

It…Johanna could not rightly call it a beast.

To be sure, the fur that covered it was thick. But it was also short and remarkably clean of mange and shagginess. Pointed ears stretched out from the sides of a skull with skin stretched tight against it but no to a great extent. Just about as much as the ears of an elf might. Even the somewhat elongated fingers were held in loose fists that hung at the side of the speaker without the feral spreading of claws that she would have thought more natural to the type of being standing before her. At least at first. Then as she examined it she found that such an idea was not precisely correct. It was in the straight back. The calm expression that could not be mistaken even with the fangs that were just large enough to separate the lips with their size but not enough to bare them fully and the half-snout like nose. All of this was piled upon the inhumanely thick muscles that bulged across almost the whole of the frame, stretching it up to a full eight and a half feet tall and several handspans wide.

"You're…not what I was expecting," Johanna finally said, bouncing her halberd once before raising it up to lay it upon her shoulder.

It laughed, but it was not a cheerful laugh. It was a sad, broken thing that carried with it enough ancient grief that even her own stopped heart almost felt like it beat in sympathy for an instant.

"What then were you expecting, scions of Lahmia?"
 
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But it is also noted that the Strigoi come from Ushoran. And like all the Bloodlines, they take inherent traits from the 1st Gen. And that Ushoran was never as good at leadership as Vashanesh/Vlad, nor as skilled as Abhorash, but that he was straight up incredibly powerful even as a mortal. Pure hardcore strength.

This is mentioned by Manfred in Liber Necris as well, though the context in which it is said is much less flattering, saying that to the other progenitors Ushoran was really just an untalented meat head whose only notable skill was being good at performing feats of strength which he would perform in parties to entertain guests in ancient Lahmia.
 
The fun of the Liber Necris is that ya gotta imagine Mannfred is throwing a bit of shade/misdirection in there on occasion, on account of him being such a prick. Nevertheless - yeah, Ushoran was not as good as everyone else at their stuff, but no one beat him in pure strength.

Course, who knows now, currently, if that would have remained true. But it's not like we'll likely ever know. I imagine Abhorash might be a mite bit stronger than he was at baseline back when they all first turned. But again, who knows.

Either way, TLDR for Being Strigoi Is Suffering:

SueSylvester-I-am-going-to-create-an-environment-that-is-so-toxic.jpg

Except photoshop Neferata's face on it and edit the text to be 'world' instead of environment then add: that it will ruin my brother's Bloodline forever
 
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The fun of the Liber Necris is that ya gotta imagine Mannfred is throwing a bit of shade/misdirection in there on occasion, on account of him being such a prick. Nevertheless - yeah, Ushoran was not as good as everyone else at their stuff, but no one beat him in pure strength.

Course, who knows now, currently, if that would have remained true. But it's not like we'll likely ever know. I imagine Abhorash might be a mite bit stronger than he was at baseline back when they all first turned. But again, who knows.

Either way, TLDR for Being Strigoi Is Suffering:

SueSylvester-I-am-going-to-create-an-environment-that-is-so-toxic.jpg

Except photoshop Neferata's face on it and edit the text to be 'world' instead of environment then add: that it will ruin my brothers Bloodline forever

Interestingly in Liber Necris, Manfred sheds some light about how the emmity between Neferata and Ushoran started. When they were kids, Ushoran used to bully her a lot. Really: "As a child he had never excelled, except in contests of strength, and as he grew older he found that he could find little respect from the other nobles at court, despite being the queen's brother. His sister, for her part, cared little for him, for throught their childhood together, Ushoran's feeling of unworthiness and insecurity had manifested themselves in his perpetual bullying of his sister."
 
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they fed only on indigents and hermits, lepers and Ghouls, or most usually, vermin and the already dead
this sounds like typical GW derp , the Stregoi could have easily enough retreated into the deep forests of the Old World and subsisted on greenskins , forest monsters and since their bodies and souls are effectively held together if not out right composed of dark magic meaning they can't be forcibly corrupted so even beast men are on the menu , the Stregoi being all of them early generation vampires known for their physical strength even by vampire standards and all of them being institutionally trained necromancers thanks to their old empire meant that surviving even thriving in the deep forests would have been possible , not to mention Neferata wouldn't have been able to do squat to them there as her whole thing is manipulating civilization of which their is none in the deep forests and no civilization would send their armies there causally and even if they do the other denzins of the forests would welcome them long before they reached the Stregoi , none of this living on vermin GW grimderp crap
 
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this sounds like typical GW derp , the Stregoi could have easily enough retreated into the deep forests of the Old World and subsisted on greenskins , forest monsters and since their bodies and souls are effectively held together if not out right composed of dark magic meaning they can't be forcibly corrupted so even beast men are on the menu , the Stregoi being all of them early generation vampires known for their physical strength even by vampire standards and all of them being institutionally trained necromancers thanks to their old empire meant that surviving even thriving in the deep forests would have been possible , not to mention Neferata wouldn't have been able to do squat to them there as her whole thing is manipulating civilization of which their is none in the deep forests and no civilization would send their armies there causally and even if they do the other denzins of the forests would welcome them long before they reached the Stregoi , none of this living on vermin GW grimderp crap

The Strigoi had just finished having their entire civilization's ass kicked by Greenskins. Orcs aren't just some free meal ticket, they can fight back. If the prey there is so weak that a Strigoi could just plop down there and feed there indefinitely then why wouldn't the much more numerous and much better organized Lahmians who have a multitude of patsies to help them as well be able to pursue them their as well. If the forest where our theoretical Strigoi plopped down at is so dangerous that the Lahmians can't set foot there then how would a Strigoi manage to do it where the Lahmians can't despite having better organization, larger numbers and more resources?

Edit: Also this is disregarding how Blood Dragons also tend to hunt down Strigoi due to how much Abhorash despised Ushoran, and anywhere a Strigoi managed to survive on the basis of his fighting prowess is somwhere a Blood Dragon is certain to be able to do the same: "Abhorash's progney despised the Strigoi as representing all that worst in vampires and went out of their way to hunt the Strigoi across all the lands of men."
 
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Why don't the strigoi go into the far east or west. Yeah those places are terrible but at least they won't have to deal with constant vampire sabotage that seems to happen in the old world. Or more accurately constant organised vampire sabotage.
 
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