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Lord of Gifts
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Try not to be such a sore loser next time. Sarcasm is never a good look when apologizing.
Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
- Thread starter torroar
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Tasoli
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No I am not really wrong tough aren't I. Every culture has their own gods with Greeks and Romans being very interviened exception and even than they had different names and temples rather than this monopoly we are seeing.
Now you are just being rude yourself.
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Doomed Wombat
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Indeed, however to stick to IRL examples Nu is indicative of how weater/ocean gods are also primordial/creator deities. Its actually an interesting anthropoligical trend we've noticed, but unsurprising considering how water is utterly crucial to life especially when civilisations were getting going clinging to the banks of river valleys.
Yeah...this is what I was going for.
Thing is the reason Neptune works is because he's in many ways a rebranding of Posidon a god whose worship could be found outlying areas of the Caspian sea all the way to Carthage.
He got around.
And most people do not have an opportunity to do a very literal "my god is best" via divine intervention nor is there nearly as much of a shared foundation for a similar god, since remember Mannan comes from Mathlann, the elven god the sea...
The colonise of whom were all coastal and likely all had a temple...to Mathlann...
Given how many old world gods are copied relatively closely from the elven gods, and the importance of Mathlann a lot of sea gods likely ended up looking very similar.
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Lord of Gifts
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Maybe if you would read our posts you would realize that, much like in real life, God's get co-opted all the time!
They become the children of X God or they are X God in a different form or they are X Gods underling. That's how Christianity converted people, that's what the Greeks believed about the Egyptian pantheon and so on. There is a monopoly because Sea God's are very easily reskinned becuase they all share almost the same spectrum of abilities with minor variations there in.
No they didn't. It was very common in ancient cultures for neighboring Pantheons to subsume each other. For instance, the Greeks did it to the Egyptians. Hell, the Romans did it to practically everyone they saw. They basically added or subsumed every god they met. Sorta like the English and other language's words.
This still doesn't cover the fact that Manann is very much real for Warhammer Fantasy and very much would be in a position to Fuck Around with naysayers.
The Brettonnians don't have a large sea-fairing tradition. Estalia and Tilea are Estalia and Tilea. Marienburg is just so wealthy, and has been for so long, that Manann has come on up.
Doomed Wombat
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Even more so when everyone's sea gods are likely inspired by the same civilization's sea god because everyone is squatting in the ruins of that civilisation's old colonys.
They do, they're apparently the strongest navy in the old world ATM.
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Maybe not on Mallus, but here on Earth kneehauling was basically a death sentence by extreme torture (almost like getting hanged, drawn, and quartered), or if the sailor was EXTREMELY LUCKY he may only get permanently maimed... The barnacles on the hull can easily gut, dismember, or decapitate a human, the hits with the knee can easily crush your skull and your ribcage, and if you somehow avoid this you can always drown, the sharks literally have no time to get to the poor guy before he is dead.
Hell, I I had to choose I would have rather faced the Shark, it seems significantly more surviable than kneehauling.
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Then the rest should be the ignorant mass without power or influence, those who have no idea what it is to rule one of the principal shield of the empire against chaos. Because that's why we sicked the witch hunters on them, because we literally couldn't take the chance that the attack was only the first of its kind, that the holders of the shores weren't in league with chaos cult or that their attack wasn't the prelude to a raid or an invasion.
Because if salkaten had Fallen? Or if the fleet had been destroyed in its entirety?
It was game over for our shores, we're already the least of the north's naval powers, without salkaten we might have had to abandon it entirely.
So yeah there was collateral damage; a LOT of it, but in Warhammer that's the rule with chaos, not the exception.
And no I Don't expect them to take it with a nod and a smile, and politically, it makes sense to offer reparations and appeasement.
NOT like this though, especially since it's the one that should know better (those with power and influence since they can explicitly cripple us), that are asking us to submit to execution (since apparently that is what keelhauling is) veiled as torture, veiled as penance.
With the generous alternative being weakening the defences we sicked the witch hunter on them to preserve...
Poetic, but counterproductive, almost treasonous toward our duty.
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Not quite. Their super navy hasn't been built yet and may never be in this timeline. Their Navy is still powerful yes, but it hasn't been updated to the same standards as the Empire navies i.e updated ship design and blackpowder weaponry.
Wasn't that some time after this because the Skaven fucked shit up in the Original Timeline?
Edit: It seems to have been the Tomb Kings.
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Tasoli
Life is for Living
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I replied off my head. And considering both Romans and Vikings get to England I tought it was good example since different culture bu still close enough. Japanese was making a point about how different culture saw thing differently.
With the Roman Empire mostly. I don' think I saw him in other pantheons overmuch.
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Let's pull this back on topic.
Faith gets rewarded. Sacrifice gets rewarded. Even at full strength our navy would be bugs on a windowpane against a black arc.
I'm actually wondering now about the value of going all the way - burning the Fist of Frederick, giving the other 4 greatships to the cult of Manaan, burning the Druchii ships, doing a level 5 keelhaul, to earn the favor of Manaan. Because without his overt blessing, there is no way we'd even stand a chance against a black arc - and the remainder of our forces are sufficient to protect us from other threats from the time being.
Hypothetically, if we did go all the way, how could we imagine that play out at home and abroad, diplomatically? How long would it take us to rebuild?
Faith gets rewarded. Sacrifice gets rewarded. Even at full strength our navy would be bugs on a windowpane against a black arc.
I'm actually wondering now about the value of going all the way - burning the Fist of Frederick, giving the other 4 greatships to the cult of Manaan, burning the Druchii ships, doing a level 5 keelhaul, to earn the favor of Manaan. Because without his overt blessing, there is no way we'd even stand a chance against a black arc - and the remainder of our forces are sufficient to protect us from other threats from the time being.
Hypothetically, if we did go all the way, how could we imagine that play out at home and abroad, diplomatically? How long would it take us to rebuild?
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Tasoli
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You will note it goes one way. Manaan seem to go other way rather than an empire adding gods to their pantheon he seems to add himself every other Empire which why I think it is weird. I suppose him giving miracles would explain some of it.
Also Arabians don't worship him it seems. Wiki tells me they are Monotehist which means I am less weirded out.
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Annatar
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Maybe not Ogres in general but Urgdug is almost twenty feet tall and almost as wide and all of that is dense muscle, fat and bone. He'd sink like a boulder.
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I'm fairly certain naval people would disagree with this strongly. Sailing on the Pacific vs the Atlantic are two very different animals.
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Sure, but that's very explicitly not the case here, so making decisions on that reasoning is just... wrong.
That's because Manann already existed and the Cult was able to leverage it's already existing knowledge to trump the adversaries. The main patron of Tilea and Estalia is Myrmidia, whose domain is not the Sea, so a much more established god managing to enter and subsume the locals is not by any means questionable. Brettonnia is like that, except even more, Because Chivalry and Zee Lady.
From what I know Warhammer was extremely inconsistent, for Warhammer, on what the Arabians worshipped. Torroar also has yet to fully nail down what they do.
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I don't see why we should worry about our Merchant enemies getting access to the Greatship design since it's not like they're going to directly raid or attack us with the Greatships nor are we selling our ships so we won't lose any income like we would if they somehow stole our gun designs and stole our firearm customers.
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Hmm...So it goes like this yeah? I think these are the best options out of all the bunch.
-Burn the Dark Elf ships or give them to the Cult (Whatever you guys want)
- Sacrifice at least two or three of our Greatships (I'm vying to just giving them 2 of our first Greatships though)
- Then do the Level 5 punishment (The final level sounds like the most promising out of all of them)
Also, I was quite amused of this part of the latest chapter.
Mortal eh? Frederick may be mortal but his kill count and achievements beg do differ.
Killing Demigods and other such similar beings ain't that easy ya know? Its not like you would fine hundreds of individuals in the Empire that have the same Martial capabilities as good old Frederick here!
-Burn the Dark Elf ships or give them to the Cult (Whatever you guys want)
- Sacrifice at least two or three of our Greatships (I'm vying to just giving them 2 of our first Greatships though)
- Then do the Level 5 punishment (The final level sounds like the most promising out of all of them)
Also, I was quite amused of this part of the latest chapter.
Mortal eh? Frederick may be mortal but his kill count and achievements beg do differ.
Killing Demigods and other such similar beings ain't that easy ya know? Its not like you would fine hundreds of individuals in the Empire that have the same Martial capabilities as good old Frederick here!
Doomed Wombat
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So basically fuck all the other cults in the the world all hail the glorious hard man sigmar and his massive **** **** ******* for being willing to be the hard man making hard decisions while HARD.
That's your line is it?
Ya fuck that.
Its not like the Cult of Mannan isn't on the front line against the Witch King Malekeith's black arks, raiding fleets, the Chaos Dwarf Steam Daemons, armadas of Norscans, the abbhorations of the Vampire Coast, the crypt fleets of Nehekarah...oh right and the just you know the black fleets of chaos!
Jeeze its almost like the oceans are one of the main battle grounds of the forces of order against chaos and the cult of Mannan is the key stone of the Old World's line against those threats? HUUUUUUH.
Chaos is also not the "OMMMMGGGGSAZZZ" threat it is in 40K and frankly its aweful that it is treated as such in 40K as well. Also Where the hell is chaos coming from? Our fear wasn't of chaos it was about the dark elves and even then we've lost the coasts before in their entirity with a far weaker province we can rebuild.
The only reason we sicked the witch hunters on them is because from a Doylist perspective we wanted expediency and from a Watsonian perspective people fucking forgot what Witch hunters were! And I think in 99 times out of 100 we can be confident that waiting is usually the better options here, cause either the witch hunters would have done the thing we ostensibly keep them around for, or by then its far too fucking late.
To say nothing of the fact traditionally people leave things to experts. You know the ones who have actual training, are not bloodthirsty wild eyed maniacs, have no record of collateral damage and can uncover these things with far greater ease and without excess blood spilt and coud IDENTIFY IF THERE WAS AN ACTUAL FOLLOW UP!
And no do not lie we have been told that dying to Keerhauling is extremely. FUCKING. RARE!
We have been explicity told this and unless you're claiming torroar is a liar, then no you are wrong again.
Not especially, very different contexts during very different times.
No kidding there are no potential links of culture.
Some times explicit just as one of the many gods people prayed too especially those on the sea, but not as a major part of their lives, other times posidon with different names, but the same god defacto or inspired by.
Of course, but as far as these people are concerned all seas flow into one another, they're connected so closely that differentiating them is extremely hard without intimate knowledge.
Hence there can be one god of them all, and smaller gods for individual parts of them, much like how a human is made up of organs.
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Ok a tangent i hope Freddy gets a piety drop after this "sacrifice". He does everything he can to protect his people and what does he get?An irate good who demands repentance.
Above all else I sure hope we don't a increase in piety even we roll 5 crits in a row. Freddy would look like a flagelant imo.
Above all else I sure hope we don't a increase in piety even we roll 5 crits in a row. Freddy would look like a flagelant imo.
Note something very important here, however:
The various offerings and options give appeasement to Manaan, to Maghda, and to the Cult and masses... in various methods and levels.
The keelhauling option, particularly, is called out as being more for the masses of common folk and also some of the priests.
Conversely, this probably also implies that donating Greatships would not quieten and satisfy the normal masses of the Cult, as much as seeing a keelhauling would.
So.
I think we should do large or decently large amounts of each option. Not only so that we could get a lot of appeasement, but so that the appeasement could be targeted at all the various targets.
Hence why I'm for the most dangerous or second most dangerous keelhauling option. And for donating 3+ Greatships (Frederick, Natasha, Oskar) or so.
ShyPerson
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Piety does not determine if you are a flagellant, it traits. More piety is only a good things.
The whole reason why doing this sacrifice thing is important has been gone over and over by more eloquent people and torroar himself. If you don't get why at this point then you are just clogging the thread with usual "though guy" nonsense.
Doomed Wombat
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You do realise that one in the empire is expected to have faith in multiple gods right? You can dislike one without loosing faith in another.
And this is not his main diety...right.
Nor in this case is the god wrong to be pissed, how would you feel if someone came up and ruthlessly slaughtered even more of your friends in torturous agony after thousands of them had already been butchered in cold blood?