Even if we were to fight and win, the Federation is not an Empire. Dictating to a conquered people isn't their style. An aggressive war that ends in a surrender treaty would have little resemblance to what you proposed.

Also, the Gretarians are the people with "no concept of organized violence beyond the personal". You want to go in there and dictate their privileges at phaser point? That actually disgusts me.

I thought the "revoke their spacefaring privileges" thing was obvious hyperbole, but given that this is a forum named after a memetic planetary annihilation technique I guess I can't blame you for taking me literally.

Basically, I want to tell the Gretarans that the status quo along our coreward border is going to be changing quite soon. If they stop supporting the Sydraxians against us, they will benefit greatly from the privileges that Federation affiliation affords. If they keep supporting the Sydraxians, then we may be forced to destroy some of their ships, and after the war is over it'll be a good while before we regain the ability to trust them.


EDIT:

We'd have gotten into a fight. Not certain if the loss of the vessel would be guaranteed.

Doubt it. Based on our intel reports, a fleet of 2 hasques and 2 kalindraxes should have a Combat score of somewhere around 12-14, and if the Cardassian attack on the Enterprise is any indication its very hard to warp away from a well-executed ambush.

Granted, its possible that the Sydraxians would simply cripple the ship and allow it to limp home defeated if their main goal is still to humiliate us, but I wouldn't bet an excelsior and the lives of its crew on that.

Also, I feel we should post a dedicated Intel ship that isn't the T'Mir (job well done by the way. What a run she had) on the SBZ. The first step to any conflict, be it warfare or peaceful resolution, is accurate information. We have little at present.

This is a good idea.
 
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We're long overdue for our next major overhaul in any event, and the crew is at wits end.

[T'Mir returns from Intel picketing duties. Will require 12 months before ready to return]

Definitely a good run.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure this means that we won't get an extra Cardassian intel report this year. Unless we assign another Oberth to Cardassian intel duty, and I'm not even sure that would work.

After our diplomatic duties on the tailward border last year, Operations has redirected us back towards the Cardassian side. I do believe it is at least in part to get an advance read on the Kadesh fleet's path. In any event, it allowed the Courageous to stretch her legs, so I'm sure she appreciated it. We are just beyond the Sydraxian Border Zone, out past our nominally claimed space, and have encountered an Apiatan Forager. Good to see friendly faces out here.

So the Kadeshi expedition is expected to go spinward, possibly bordering Sydraxian or Cardassian territory? That's...quite worrying.

[Unk Sydrax.] You see the fleet I have brought here. Do you wish to discuss terms of surrender?

[Capt Chekov] Very well, I accept your surrender. Lower your shields and-

Ah, the classic surrender switcheroo :D

However, even with the Monsaad, I don't like Chekov's chances in the fight, and I'm glad he got the Sydraxians to turn around - more on this below.

Captain's Log, USS Bull, Stardate 24669.7

Of all the stupid things.

Our Ambassadors weren't even the targets, the assassin was aiming for a set of noble Licori, and put the nerve gas agent in the wrong room.

The Arcadian Empire is apoplectic at the House responsible, and very conciliatory at the meeting table, when apparently they had driving the late Ambassadors, rest their souls, around the twist.

[+5pp, +25 with the Licori - Affiliate membership currently impossible]

...I'm seeing a pattern here. First, we get a senior tech killed in Gaen and get +5rp +25 relations. Now, we get diplomats killed in Licori Morshadd and get +5pp +25 relations.

What poor guy is gonna have to be sacrificed for the Ked Paddah to get our sweet bonus?

Still no rp this quarter. We need another 23 rp to avoid needing to deactivate any teams. I wonder if we should request the Ambassador project this year for the 30 rp, but only start on the design proper next year?

I've seen this suggested before, but it feels, well, gamey. In the "the Council looks at you disapprovingly" way.

@OneirosTheWriter, what are the consequences of requesting the start of a ship design project but not starting it this year, and instead using the gifted RP for other research teams?

Two cruisers and two escorts, right? Fairly sure that would have been bye bye Endurance without the backup.

Hmm, I'm not sure if even the addition of the Monsaad Turtleship would've been sufficient to even the odds.

According to the 2310 intel report, I'd estimate the Sydraxian ship stat lines as:
Kalindrax "which is a heavy-weight cruiser, sort of like a more well-rounded, faster Jaldun-class that masses about 1.8mt": C4 H4 L4
Hasque "which we consider to be broadly similar to a Centaur or Centaur-A in terms of performance": C3 H2 L3

Meanwhile, on our side:
Endurance is C6 H4 L5
Monsaad is C4 H5 L5

In my estimation, two Kalindrax + two Hasques vs Endurance and Monsaad don't look like good odds for the latter.

So this was actually a really good bluff by Chekov.

That does remind me, do we have an Oberth refit coming up? Will bide time until we can get the Keppler design running.

The Oberth is already an impossible design on the old ship design spreadsheet and still impossible on the new one so far. Unless it gets retconned to have a larger hull or something (and we get some implicit BR discount from the Council for every built Oberth to make up the BR cost difference), I don't think we can refit the Oberth, at least not unless we want to downgrade it for some reason.

So the Apiata prepared a trap for the Cardassians and only damaged one Jaldun while completly loosing a stinger?
Is that a good rate?

The Jaldun costs at least 120br (due to 1.2mt hull) and probably 60 to 80sr (intel says Cardassian ships don't use as much SR due to resource constraints).

Meanwhile, a Stinger costs just 60br 60sr.

I'm pretty sure the Apiatans heavily damaged that Jaldun, so combined with it having to limp back home and its repair time, it's probably out of action for at least a year, with repair costs comparable to that of a Stinger. Meanwhile, the Stinger was crippled, though they could salvage (read: scrap) it for some resources when building another Stinger.

Dunno about the crew losses, but I get the feeling that both Cardassians and Apiatans don't treat their crews as valuable as Starfleet would (for at least the non-queenships in Apiata's case), so it may be a wash.

Its a pity they did not destroy the Jaldun.
Did Rosalee just basically cause a small incident with the Apiata over their own decision to pursue a war against the Cardassians who have been plaguing them for years? I hope it wasn't the Courageous that caused that Jaldun to escape.

Actually, I'm almost sure it's because of the Courageous that that the Jaldun "escaped". There's no way either the Little Queenship or the undamaged Stingers could not chase down the damaged Jaldun. A Little Queenship has D7, while the Stinger has D4, and on the other side, the Jaldun has D4. Even taking into account the fact that the D stat is more than just speed, the Apiatan ships likely are faster than Cardassian ships in general.

Okay. We need to have a sit down with the president AND with the EC panel to talk about this. What IS the Federation's position on the Apiata/Cardassian situation? Are we going to keep breathing down their necks whenever we see them attack the cardies? Are we going to volunteer Starfleet's own services to protect their foragers from the Cardassians? We need a coherent message.

Yeah, the situation is coming to head, and with this particular awkward three-way confrontation between Starfleet, Apiatan, and Cardassian ships, something needs to be discussed ASAP.
 
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2312.Q1.M2 - Master of Orion
Celos Daily News

Panic grips the street as heavy fighting rages on for the third night. Reinforcements from the ISSU and Aerocommandos are travelling from Duaba to Celos to bring things under control, but it is already too late for all too many.

After last month's savage mauling of SSD forces in a series of coordinated attacks, a first set of ISSU reinforcements was dispatched. Unfortunately, the Syndicate appeared to be a step ahead. Starting with Wednesday's bombing of the landing base for the incoming ISSU, killing nearly a hundred officers and bystanders, both sides have been in a state of near open warfare on the planet, and as of today many civilians are evacuating from the capital. Full-blooded offensives by the ISSU and SSD took the streets by storm, and hundreds more are dead, with many believed to be civilians. Explosions, from remotely detonated devices, mines, photonic launchers, or other sources, were at one stage rocking the city every ten minutes.

United Earth and Andorian ships have arrived to help beam civilians from the capital to surrounding refugee camps, however, it is believed that many Syndicate fighters are also using this method to escape the battlefront. Indeed, it is suspected that Syndicate fighters are in the process of evacuating the city, having accomplished their objectives, leaving the wrath of the ISSU survivors to fall mainly upon Celosi civilians.

[+4 Impact, +8 Cost, 3hp ISSU hp lost, 1hp SSD lost, SSD on Celos combat ineffective]

-

Anti-Slavery Task Force Progress Report

Well, good news, bad news.

We know for a fact by cross referencing with the data secured from the two Hypercorps that the ISSU's rampage has, in fact, been focused mainly on the Syndicate, and has caused severe damage to the local Syndicate infrastructure. However, that may not do any good, because they've also swept up far too many incidents. The broadcast services in Union space are running almost 24 hours a day with pictures of the devastation. Parts of the city are in ruins. I'll spare the details, but it does not make for pleasant viewing. We have protested strenuously with the Union government over this behaviour, and they say that they will investigate the matter and prosecute if offences can be proven.

Locally, the pushes on New Rigel continue, with aggressive action being urged by the Task Force commanders. This has led to potent effects, and we believe corruption on New Rigel has never been this low in the history of the colony. however, it has led to a surge in Caitian losses. [-1hp for New Rigel CFP, -5pp, New Rigel Corruption Level now Low]

In an important coup, we prevented an attempt to assassinate the captured Alasho, with the Scrutineers investigation leading to the arrest of a quartet of subverted justice department officers who were planning to poison the Syndicate officer. [+4 Impact, many arrests made]

Following up on the issue of the Amarkian slave-raid, the Confederacy task force is pushing hard throughout the suspected areas the slaver ship could have been hiding, but as of yet they have had no luck. [+2 Cost]

[Total +8 Impact, +10 Cost, -5pp]

-
 
...I'm seeing a pattern here. First, we get a senior tech killed in Gaen and get +5rp +25 relations. Now, we get diplomats killed in Licori Morshadd and get +5pp +25 relations.

What poor guy is gonna have to be sacrificed for the Ked Paddah to get our sweet bonus?
Was rolling and legitimately wondered if I should describe it as some manner of weird anthropological phenomenon in that Gaen-border region.
 
Hmh I do wonder if the larger fallout from the whole of the Orion Civil war will not be what leads to the stronger expansion of the prime directive in TNG in regards to internal matters of other civilisations.
 
Captain's Log, USS T'Mir, Stardate 24667.3 - Captain Samyr Kanil

Well, it's been a good run, but we have strong reason to believe we have been made based on fleet movements and unusual particle spins being imparted to the area around us, which we suspect are artifacts of intense long range sensor scans. We are making a maximum warp run to the edge of Seyek space where we will rendezvous with Challorn and Winterwind, and then head to Starbase 10.

We're long overdue for our next major overhaul in any event, and the crew is at wits end.

[T'Mir returns from Intel picketing duties. Will require 12 months before ready to return]

Well, with the border stabilized I suppose this was inevitable. Good job, T'Mir.


Bridge Transcript, USS Endurance, Stardate 24669.3

[Ens Cerglok - Helm] Slowing to quarter impulse, aye.

[Capt Chekov] Report, sensors.

[LCdr T'Toia - Science] Captain, I am picking up one Greterian freighter, undamaged, along with two Kalindrax-type Sydraxian cruisers and two Hasques. The freighter has gone to warp. Captain, I believe this is a trap.

[LCdr T'Toia - Science] Captain, the Monsad has just arrived and is coming alongside us. The Sydraxian ships have halted their advance.

So that's two Jaldun-equivalent cruisers and two Centaur-equivalent escorts. Probably ~14C, ~12H, and ~12-14L depending on exact stats.

An Excelsior + Turtleship is 10C, 9H, 10L, with Lone Ranger giving +5% fleet combat and +1 Shield.

Truthfully the Sydraxians could still have won this, but the Monsad turned it from a sure thing into a costly victory.


Captain's Log, USS Bull, Stardate 24669.7

Of all the stupid things.

Our Ambassadors weren't even the targets, the assassin was aiming for a set of noble Licori, and put the nerve gas agent in the wrong room.

The Arcadian Empire is apoplectic at the House responsible, and very conciliatory at the meeting table, when apparently they had driving the late Ambassadors, rest their souls, around the twist.

[+5pp, +25 with the Licori - Affiliate membership currently impossible]

Is Affiliate membership impossible because they're at war with the Ked Paddah? Or their mentats? Or because they murdered two diplomats in an "oopsie"?!

All of the above?

Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 24669.9


In a turbolift on my way back to the bridge. Quick report: Jaldun just arrived in system and began to chase the forager. First officer had the watch; he was in the middle of warning them off the Apiata when a trio of Stingers appeared as if by magic. I'll be giving the sensor logs a solid look when...

You know, even if this was a trap the Jaldun still took aggressive action first. "Jaldun just arrived in system and began to chase the forager." That's very different from a distress call luring us in to provide assistance.

Even when Cardassians are the victims they're the bad guys.
 
Hmh I do wonder if the larger fallout from the whole of the Orion Civil war will not be what leads to the stronger expansion of the prime directive in TNG in regards to internal matters of other civilisations.
Not really related to that?
The Orion Syndicate has interfered with our affairs long before we have started acting against them. They simply are not an internal Orion-matter while they are active far outside the Orion Union.
 
Not really related to that?
The Orion Syndicate has interfered with our affairs long before we have started acting against them. They simply are not an internal Orion-matter while they are active far outside the Orion Union.
Yeah but the Klingon Civil war likewise impacted the Federation so it is a mixture , considering how there is a difference between the Anti slavery task force, and police work on ground in terms of where you are doing what.
 
Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 24670.3

Right, well that was a mess.

One badly damaged Jaldun has been allowed to limp away. One Stinger has been nearly cored out and will have to be basically rebuilt. I don't even understand why the Jaldun stayed to fight except maybe stubborn pride.

I have to confess that I went in person and gave the Captain-Queen of the Little Queenship Melziprim such a full-blooded serve that one of the worker Apiatans had to be restrained from coming at me.

Not impressed. Not at all. I can understand how angry the Apiatans are now, but this isn't the answer!

[Gain +5pp]

This captain is an idiot, can we demote him please? With respect this is a trap that only works against PIRATES, by all rights the Apiata are fully justified in executing all of the cardasians involved. Jesus we need more hawks on the council if our captains are starting to become this fight averse.
 
This captain is an idiot, can we demote him please? With respect this is a trap that only works against PIRATES, by all rights the Apiata are fully justified in executing all of the cardasians involved. Jesus we need more hawks on the council if our captains are starting to become this fight averse.

Don't blame Captain McAdams. She's carrying out Federation policy.
 
I've been thinking, would it be a good idea to demand an Intelligence report on how much Cost the Federation can take before they'll just give up the Anti-Syndicate campaign? Also, it would be nice to know the Syndicate's Resilience, but that might not be worth an entire report.
 
This captain is an idiot, can we demote him please? With respect this is a trap that only works against PIRATES, by all rights the Apiata are fully justified in executing all of the cardasians involved. Jesus we need more hawks on the council if our captains are starting to become this fight averse.
I wouldn't talk like that if I were you, Mrs Eaton might hear you :V
 
I've been thinking, would it be a good idea to demand an Intelligence report on how much Cost the Federation can take before they'll just give up the Anti-Syndicate campaign? Also, it would be nice to know the Syndicate's Resilience, but that might not be worth an entire report.
Wouldn't that mean sending spies (sorry, Intelligence-agents) after our own councillers?
 
I'm really tempted to spend 30pp to amend the anti-Syndicate legislation again. We effectively lost 41pp due to Syndicate cost last year. I don't know how much new legislation can help, but 30pp is looking more and more like a bargain in the long run.

edit: On a related note, we should now have 179pp.

Locally, the pushes on New Rigel continue, with aggressive action being urged by the Task Force commanders. This has led to potent effects, and we believe corruption on New Rigel has never been this low in the history of the colony. however, it has led to a surge in Caitian losses. [-1hp for New Rigel CFP, -5pp, New Rigel Corruption Level now Low]

So besides sustainability in police action, there is a direct pp cost of sufficient gendarme casualties.

Following up on the issue of the Amarkian slave-raid, the Confederacy task force is pushing hard throughout the suspected areas the slaver ship could have been hiding, but as of yet they have had no luck. [+2 Cost]

I have feeling this is going to get worse then simply +2 cost per month if we don't find that slaver ship soon.

This captain is an idiot, can we demote him please? With respect this is a trap that only works against PIRATES, by all rights the Apiata are fully justified in executing all of the cardasians involved. Jesus we need more hawks on the council if our captains are starting to become this fight averse.

Less the fault of the Captain and more Starfleet/Federation rules of engagement. Apiata and Federation really need to sit down and negotiate or something.

I've been thinking, would it be a good idea to demand an Intelligence report on how much Cost the Federation can take before they'll just give up the Anti-Syndicate campaign? Also, it would be nice to know the Syndicate's Resilience, but that might not be worth an entire report.

Well, we're already being penalized heavily by Syndicate cost, so that's incentive enough to give up (not that I will ever vote to). I suspect it's when the cost hits 100 that the Federation might start balking, since that's when we lose all our annual pp. This also raises the question of how much cost is retained YoY. We know that cost is "halved", but we don't know if it's whole EOY cost that's halved, or just the accrued cost last year that's halved.

I'd be willing to spend an intel report on Syndicate resilience.
 
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I wouldn't talk like that if I were you, Mrs Eaton might hear you :V

:oops:

Sorry I've tendency to just sort of blur the ship names and captains into a generic ball if I'm not specifically paying attention and my frustration kind of blew through everything, I was just a tincy bit aggravated at the Apiata getting chewed out for what is a pretty justified anti-pirate operation regardless of whether it ends up hitting cardassians or not. This kind of trap is something I could easily see being done against the Orion Syndicate as an example.

That's Rosalee McAdams. One of our more combatative captains...

:< Well I don't know what to say to that. :/
 
This captain is an idiot, can we demote him please? With respect this is a trap that only works against PIRATES, by all rights the Apiata are fully justified in executing all of the cardasians involved. Jesus we need more hawks on the council if our captains are starting to become this fight averse.
It also works against commerce raiders (essentially sanctioned piracy, admittedly, but the difference is that commerce raiders don't generally try to recover cargo).

It is also important to remember that the Apiatans have been fighting a brush war against the Cardassians for some time now, while the Federation and the CU are at least nominally at peace.
 
:oops:

Sorry I've tendency to just sort of blur the ship names and captains into a generic ball if I'm not specifically paying attention and my frustration kind of blew through everything, I was just a tincy bit aggravated at the Apiata getting chewed out for what is a pretty justified anti-pirate operation regardless of whether it ends up hitting cardassians or not. This kind of trap is something I could easily see being done against the Orion Syndicate as an example.



:< Well I don't know what to say to that. :/
If it weren't for the fact that Starfleet captains have already been made aware of the fact the Apiatans wiped out a Cardie/Sydraxian convoy, she'd have been rather more sympathetic. Rosalee really doesn't want to see this all blow up into open war, no more than the rest of Starfleet does.
 
General notes:

Chekov is awesome. The T'Mir has been awesome. McAdams is awesome and I do not fault her one bit for chewing out the Apiata queen who is actively trying to bring about a war by chipping away at Cardassia.

ON THE SYNDICATE

Yeah. We definitely need a reasonably clear idea of how much more of this we can take, since 2311 has been a tough year on the Cost front. And we really should think in terms of expending more PP up front in an

@OneirosTheWriter, is it even possible for us to get more Effect against the Syndicate by expending political will? If so, I can think of no better use of Sousa's bonuses.

ON THE APIATA AMBUSH

It is totally, 100% understandable that the Apiata want revenge against Cardassia.

The problem is that they're trying to bring on a war, and not a war they would realistically be able to win without us. They're taking our military support as a given. And assuming that because of our support, they have an opportunity to seek revenge on their enemies, even if that revenge leads to a broader Cardassian-Federation War.

Now, if this incident of the Apiata luring a Jaldun in to launch a piratical attack on one of their ships, then pounding it, was unique, I'd say "this is the Apiata trying to teach the Cardassians not to do that." The Cardassians have been engaged in opportunistic piracy with regular fleet units against the Apiata for ten years now, after all. If they want to keep reaching into that cookie jar, the Apiata have every right to train them that when they do so, they get slapped.

BUT there is also the matter of the convoy attack. That wasn't a case of the Apiata punishing the Cardassians for offensive behavior against the Apiata themselves. That was the Apiata turning the tables and becoming pirates themselves. That's consistent with a war of revenge, not with trying to protect themselves.

Captain Kirk had a few choice words to say, about people who consider an ongoing death toll from a 'minor' war as something preferable to peace.

As a rule, it seems that smaller ships seem more resource efficient than bigger ones. So one [badly damaged] Jaldun seems to be a decent trade for a basically destroyed Stinger, especially once when you consider how little Apiatan queens think of their drones compared to how much the Cardassians value their trained personnel.
The Cardassians practice conscription. Killing Cardassian spacers may hurt the Cardies' feelings more than killing workers hurts those of the Apiata, but it doesn't hurt Cardassia as a polity much more than it hurts the Apiata as a polity.

Basically, for crew losses to really matter to either side, you have to kill their crew very fast, and pick off a disproportionate number of the trained veteran long-service officers and noncoms. In principle, this can create a situation where the Cardassians (or Apiata) can't actually train crew fast enough to replenish losses, while still prosecuting the war. Because they need their 'aces' both on the front lines keeping things from collapsing, AND in the rear training the next wave of crew.

The Germans and Japanese fell into this trap during World War Two, for instance.

Pinprick raids and ambushes like this won't have that effect, though. Because both sides can easily order up more replacements for something like that, and do so indefinitely.

ON THE SYDRAXIAN AMBUSH

Point of order, if it matters, @OneirosTheWriter; I already gave the Courageous a communications officer: Lieutenant Chatsworth. She's human, though in terms of her outward deportment she seems more Vulcan than most Vulcans. Very quiet, very restrained, very precise, very analytical, very controlled. Inadvisable to get her angry, though.

I don't think we're revoking anyone's spacefaring privileges. That's an idea that will get Sousa very fired. And then courtmartialed.
Even if we were to fight and win, the Federation is not an Empire. Dictating to a conquered people isn't their style. An aggressive war that ends in a surrender treaty would have little resemblance to what you proposed.

Also, the Gretarians are the people with "no concept of organized violence beyond the personal". You want to go in there and dictate their privileges at phaser point? That actually disgusts me.
Okay, well please be specific, what do you suggest?

Are we going to keep staking our ships out there to be ambushed in ones and twos?

Are we going to spend the next fifty years ignoring Gretarian distress calls because space puppies are too easily coerced into acting as bait for a Sydraxian trap? How many Gretarians die as a result of this?

Are we going to try to coerce the Sydraxians into stopping this crap?

Because I'd rather not dictate anything to any Gretarian person. I don't think it's necessary. But we have to do something, or the Sydraxian fleet (which is growing) will be picking off our ships at an increasing rate for decades.

If you're going to rule out morally repugnant actions, then either:
1) Find us a course of action that is not repugnant and offers us a realistic hope of EVER resolving this problem, or
2) Pick one of the several repugnant courses of action as least-bad, and stick up for it, or at least don't complain about it.
 
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The question isn't how much cost can the Federation take, it's how much cost can we personally take as Quest Deciders. We are the ones who ultimately decide how much cost is Too Much Cost. It negatively affects OUR PP, that's the Cost of Cost.
 
It is totally, 100% understandable that the Apiata want revenge against Cardassia.

The problem is that they're trying to bring on a war, and not a war they would realistically be able to win without us. They're taking our military support as a given. And assuming that because of our support, they have an opportunity to seek revenge on their enemies, even if that revenge leads to a broader Cardassian-Federation War.

I know it's not totally relevant to your main point, but I wanted to say that I'm not 100% sure the Apiata couldn't win on their own, or mostly on their own. The Cardassians have a bigger fleet, but the Apiata seem amazingly well-coordinated and have some damn good ships. Completely on their own the odds are stacked against them (though not to the point where it would require miracles to win, merely lots of good fortune). With even modest Federation support, well...

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apiata proposal is that they'll take on the Cardassians if we just guard their homeworlds or something like that.

Okay, well please be specific, what do you suggest?

Are we going to keep staking our ships out there to be ambushed in ones and twos?

Are we going to spend the next fifty years ignoring Gretarian distress calls because space puppies are too easily coerced into acting as bait for a Sydraxian trap? How many Gretarians die as a result of this?

Are we going to try to coerce the Sydraxians into stopping this crap?

Well, I think the hope is that by thwarting individual attacks without giving the Sydraxians a glorious real war to unite behind, we'll gradually drain their political will for the whole endeavor.

Take this latest incident. There were no Sydraxian ships destroyed or Sydraxians killed, so there's nothing to unite behind in a glorious struggle for revenge. It was just kind of humiliating for them, and not even in a way that's easy to blame on us. More humiliating for whomever planned the whole thing back in Hierarchy headquarters. So the hope is that they will stop listening to the individuals pushing for ambushes like that and start listening to the side who thinks it's a bad idea.

Quietly endure until sense prevails in the Heirarchy and they start asking themselves what this is gaining them.
 
I know it's not totally relevant to your main point, but I wanted to say that I'm not 100% sure the Apiata couldn't win on their own, or mostly on their own. The Cardassians have a bigger fleet, but the Apiata seem amazingly well-coordinated and have some damn good ships. Completely on their own the odds are stacked against them (though not to the point where it would require miracles to win, merely lots of good fortune). With even modest Federation support, well...

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apiata proposal is that they'll take on the Cardassians if we just guard their homeworlds or something like that.
As long as we have ships on the border and are a threat they can't fully commit to a war against the Apiata anyway.
I wonder how much attention Baajor takes for them and if there are any more internal hotspots that need ships and men.
 
The question isn't how much cost can the Federation take, it's how much cost can we personally take as Quest Deciders. We are the ones who ultimately decide how much cost is Too Much Cost. It negatively affects OUR PP, that's the Cost of Cost.
Debatable; the Council can pull the plug on the campaign if it wants.

I know it's not totally relevant to your main point, but I wanted to say that I'm not 100% sure the Apiata couldn't win on their own, or mostly on their own. The Cardassians have a bigger fleet, but the Apiata seem amazingly well-coordinated and have some damn good ships. Completely on their own the odds are stacked against them (though not to the point where it would require miracles to win, merely lots of good fortune). With even modest Federation support, well...

I wouldn't be surprised if the Apiata proposal is that they'll take on the Cardassians if we just guard their homeworlds or something like that.
Okay, but unless we're prepared to accept that proposal, then there is still a serious problem with what the Apiata are doing.

So I agree with what others said, we really, REALLY need to actually talk to the Apiata about this.

Well, I think the hope is that by thwarting individual attacks without giving the Sydraxians a glorious real war to unite behind, we'll gradually drain their political will for the whole endeavor.

Take this latest incident. There were no Sydraxian ships destroyed or Sydraxians killed, so there's nothing to unite behind in a glorious struggle for revenge. It was just kind of humiliating for them, and not even in a way that's easy to blame on us. More humiliating for whomever planned the whole thing back in Hierarchy headquarters. So the hope is that they will stop listening to the individuals pushing for ambushes like that and start listening to the side who thinks it's a bad idea.

Quietly endure until sense prevails in the Heirarchy and they start asking themselves what this is gaining them.
Thing is, it was in large part a matter of good luck on our part that the Rigellians were around to reinforce Endurance. What would have happened if they hadn't shown up? We can't act as though our ships are invulnerable. If we keep giving the Sydraxians free shots at them, sooner or later they're going to try something that will succeed. And I see absolutely no evidence that they're getting war-weary. Remember, the current lack of battle and conflict means that the Sydraxians aren't getting any glory, but it also means they aren't taking any losses. Keeping this up doesn't cost them anything. Strong-arming the Gretarians costs them nothing. Sending ships across the border to try and ambush our ships (if they can) costs them nothing... unless we engage the Sydraxians in battle. At which point we're taking risks, and the possibility of giving them glory is there.

We've been pursuing a strategy that more or less reduces to "take no definite action, and hope the Sydraxians get bored" for roughly five years now. They haven't started relaxing. If anything, they've been escalating.

Exactly what would it take to convince you that this strategy isn't working and that we need to do something active?
 
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