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I can get behind this.
We need to upgrade to the Comprehensive act.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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We need to upgrade to the Comprehensive act.
I don't feel that I need to be convinced or not convinced because I don't think WE (as in, the posters in this thread) need to be making plans or doing anything in particular here. As far as I'm concerned, this is basically NPC narrative territory. When there's a vote put up for us to have some input on addressing the Sydraxian situations, I'll be happy to discuss.
But until then, I'm not going to be tearing my hair out about it, anymore than I'd be demanding to affect the cutscenes in a video game. I mean "we need to"? Nope, it's in NPC hands at the moment and I'm fine to leave it there. When there's an opportunity for player involvement we'll be told.
What's the cost-benefit return on that? We're talking a major pp expenditure merely to reopen discussion, an extra pp expenditure every year to maintain it, and then probably having to cut back in another area due to having only so much Influence to spread around. You're going to have to show some math to convince me that it would be worthwhile.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
This is why I asked if there's any way we can buy more Influence in order to achieve more Impact. If we can't buy more Influence then there isn't much point in rewriting the legislation, but if we can, then there is. Even if said influence turns out to be very expensive- because a small amount of extra Impact could result in the conflict winding down a year or two earlier.
Increasing our Impact is likely to have a disproportionate effect on the Syndicate, because the first X points of annual impact are being totally discounted. And shortening the time before we knock the Syndicate down to (roughly) half-strength by achieving 200 Impact against them is important, assuming we're not already close to that.
The question is, are we going to be given a chance to do anything other than be resolute yet passive on the Sydraxian frontier? It seems probable that some opportunity will arise sooner or later. If so, should we take it? How do we deal with the Gretarians, who are fairly obviously 'innocent' in all this, and whom we want to protect, but whom the Sydraxians are effortlessly able to enmesh in a protection racket due to how totally defenseless the Gretarians are?
Talking about these questions is important, and the issue itself is important. And the status quo really isn't very satisfactory, and things are unlikely to get better until or unless something is done about them.
Increasing our Impact is likely to have a disproportionate effect on the Syndicate, because the first X points of annual impact are being totally discounted. And shortening the time before we knock the Syndicate down to (roughly) half-strength by achieving 200 Impact against them is important, assuming we're not already close to that.
Thing is, there are active discussions of this anyway. You're welcome to not participate if you so choose. But presumably we're going to get to make decisions sooner or later, and one of the major roles of OOC discussion in the thread (especially during down time between votes) is to plan ahead and figure out what we think about issues before they come to a vote.
The question is, are we going to be given a chance to do anything other than be resolute yet passive on the Sydraxian frontier? It seems probable that some opportunity will arise sooner or later. If so, should we take it? How do we deal with the Gretarians, who are fairly obviously 'innocent' in all this, and whom we want to protect, but whom the Sydraxians are effortlessly able to enmesh in a protection racket due to how totally defenseless the Gretarians are?
Talking about these questions is important, and the issue itself is important. And the status quo really isn't very satisfactory, and things are unlikely to get better until or unless something is done about them.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The evidence suggests (so far) that the Gretarians are innocent in all this, and I don't think we need to threaten to destroy their ships, or distrust them.
I honestly think the most honest and decent way to deal with the Gretarians is to do little or nothing until we are actually willing to stop Sydraxians, rather than just passively taking hits from them and trying to block as best we can. But once we are willing to do that, we should quite simply tell the Gretarians "you don't have to give them stuff anymore, and you don't have to give us stuff. It's over."
Because we really do have the firepower to protect the Gretarians, if we choose to do so. It's just pointless for us to try and persuade them to do anything as long as they're vulnerable to, and not protected against, Sydraxian strongarm tactics. Or Yrilian raiders acting as allies of said strongarm specialists.
I would suggest we diplo push the Gretarians until they're affiliates and we're treaty bound to protect them. That will give us cause to be more proactive in carrying out a Starfleet duty. We may also have to issue Standing Orders for the SBZ like we did in the early days of the CBZ.
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- Location
- Patriarchova
What bothers me about the Apiata thing is that this pirate-trap was far, far less objectionable than their ambush of the trade convoy last year. With the convoy raid, you could say that it was a misdirected attack that serves only to further antagonize the Cardassians. I'd disagree with you, but you could say that, and you'd be able to make a decent case. The forager trap, though, was SPECIFICALLY targeted at those individual ships within the Cardassian military that are going out of their way to raid the Apiata. This is a very routine sort of anti-pirate operation that any peacekeeping force can be expected to engage in. In this case, it also communicates a very clear price to the Cardassians for engaging in the specific type of behavior that we want to prevent.
If we don't allow the Apiata to attack Cardassian ships that target their foragers, WHAT THE BLOODY HELL DO WE EXPECT THEM TO DO? Seriously, what is the correct answer we're expecting from the Apiata? When is defending their own civilians okay and not okay?
I have half a mind to have Sousa issue a formal apology to the Allhive for Captain McAdams' behavior.
If we don't allow the Apiata to attack Cardassian ships that target their foragers, WHAT THE BLOODY HELL DO WE EXPECT THEM TO DO? Seriously, what is the correct answer we're expecting from the Apiata? When is defending their own civilians okay and not okay?
I have half a mind to have Sousa issue a formal apology to the Allhive for Captain McAdams' behavior.
In my opinion, the Yrillians are the key to the whole region. The Sydraxians won't talk to us, but the Yrillians will. The entire rationale/justification the Sydraxians are offering for their domination of the Gretarians is fear of Yrillian pirates. The Sydraxians are apparently talking with the Yrillians and could presumably be pressured by them, at least to some extent. And finally, the Yrillians have been in space for a long, long time (nearly as long as the Orions) and probably know the score better than the Sydraxians or the Gretarians. I doubt they view Cardassian influence with anything other than extreme pragmatism.
If you want to ask about things we actually do, maybe an intelligence report related to the Yrillians as well as keeping the diplomatic push pressure on them. Crack them, and a path opens up to cracking the Sydraxians.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We do get to make policy recommendations and can make deals. That's what PP is for. We need to ask Oneiros for the opportunity to at least request the Council to deliver judgement as to our policy vs the Sydaxians in the Snakepit (basically open up a vote with PP costs for us to set policy). Because as far as I can tell, they haven't done anything but leave it up to us. No directives, no discussion, we just pushed for a SBZ and that's been about it. So either Stesk needs to go to them hat in hand, or we need to put the diplomats to bed and clean up the Sydaxian mess. Because 5 years of ignoring them has done jack shit.
I'd really like the Federation to maintain a reputation of being the diplomats who will talk and talk and talk as long as you want. But refuse to talk and start taking aggressive action long enough, and Starfleet will swing by, completely wreck your fleet, and destroy every slip in your territory. Then you can talk if you want to, but you're not going to be a threat to us for a very long time. Peaceful as hell, but fights wars to the knife.
I'd really like the Federation to maintain a reputation of being the diplomats who will talk and talk and talk as long as you want. But refuse to talk and start taking aggressive action long enough, and Starfleet will swing by, completely wreck your fleet, and destroy every slip in your territory. Then you can talk if you want to, but you're not going to be a threat to us for a very long time. Peaceful as hell, but fights wars to the knife.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I'm confused, genuinely confused, why folks are mad at Rosalee. Her ship came across an allied ship, made friendly contact, and gave them a good talking-to after they sprung a "trap" with Courageous right there, a trap that is pretty clearly part of a larger ongoing operation that the Federation, by all rights, should be aware of.
There's nothing to issue a formal apology for.
There's nothing to issue a formal apology for.
- Location
- Patriarchova
It was strongly implied that she intervened to allow the Cardassian cruiser to escape, and the "talking-to" was extreme enough that Clozzidira's workers nearly felt compelled to physically intervene.
The trade convoy attack also included an attack on the Sydraxians, who have never attacked the Apiata as far as we know. So that was troublesome.
Hey! You know, there's also the fact that the Apiata fucking lied to McAdams about what they were doing and put her ship in the middle of the ambush without any warning regarding what was going to go down.
They deserved to be chewed out for that alone, you know. If they'd come clean, she could have sailed the Courageous away and left them to it. Instead she was suddenly in the middle of a battle without knowing the plan.
Why don't we wait and see what the elections bring about? I have a feeling that with a fresh electoral mandate, we might see the Council address some of these lingering issues.
How many Starfleet ships would you like to sacrifice trying that just once? Would ten be too many?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Those are reasonable intermediate steps, I think.
The big problem is that the Yrillians aren't going to crack, they're going to go 'squash.' People sometimes make fun of how entire species in Star Trek are almost always modeled as having united planetary governments, but now we're getting a great example of the drawbacks of the alternative. WIth the Yrilians, we can't really reach out to any single Yrillian group or entity and get an agreement, nor can any single Yrillian group necessarily offer us enough pieces of the puzzle to matter by itself.
I agree that the Yrillians are likely a key here, but I'm grumpily muttering about how difficult dealing with their part of the problem is likely to be.
I don't think building this reputation is very tenable.
The problem is that the kind of person willing to sign off on the total destruction of an enemy's warfighting capability "to the knife" ISN'T the kind of person willing to engage in indefinite negotations. The kind of people who fight and win total wars aren't the same as the kind of people who focus on keeping the peace. An organization run by one type of person isn't going to listen very effectively to the other.
Algalon
Herald of the Titans
- Location
- Celestial Planetarium
Because it was a trap that would only have attracted pirates. This wasn't a provocation, there was no "COME HERE IF YOU DARE!" message, just a lonely forager. It was the Jaldun who decided to engage it, planning to destroy it. The Apiata simply decided to send a hidden escort and retaliated.
Now, sure, we all know that in spirit it was a trap. We all know the Cardies couldn't resist this bait. Morally, however, the Apiata are in the right. The Cardassians are attacking their civilian ships, the Apiata decided to start sending protection along.
Now, if anybody is at fault it's the Courageous. A close affiliate, one awaiting ratification to become a member in fact, had one of their ships attacked in front of Starfleet. Starfleet did nothing.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh, actually Courageous totally did something. Our explorer was busily warning the Jaldun off when the Apiata warped in and attacked the Jaldun.
Based on REPEATED past experience with the actions of Enterprise and other Starfleet ships, the Apiata have every reason to think that Captain McAdams would have proceeded to trash the hell out of that Jaldun if it didn't run away. Because our ships have repeatedly chased away Cardassian raiders attacking Apiata foragers. We've been doing this basically as long as we've known the Apiata existed.
Based on REPEATED past experience with the actions of Enterprise and other Starfleet ships, the Apiata have every reason to think that Captain McAdams would have proceeded to trash the hell out of that Jaldun if it didn't run away. Because our ships have repeatedly chased away Cardassian raiders attacking Apiata foragers. We've been doing this basically as long as we've known the Apiata existed.
You have no idea if there was a provocation or a message. In fact, there almost certainly was, because the Apiata would have wanted to be sure they would actually draw in a Cardassian attack rather than have their ambush sit for many months without anyone wandering in.
- Location
- Patriarchova
That...is a very good point.
Okay, McAdams is in the clear. However, I still think we need to have a good discussion with the government and the EC panel about what our consistent Apiata position should be. As it is, either a) the Apiata had reason to think they needed to hide the truth from us, or b) Clozzidira is a lunatic who should be stripped of her command. If A, we need to figure our shit out. If B, the Apiata need to do the same.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
As others have noted, it's quite likely the "talking-to" was severe because they put Courageous in a bad position, aka in the middle of a trap set by allies that they didn't know about.
I'm not sure what's wrong with letting the Jaldun limp away heavily damaged. Is it more important for Starfleet to ensure that all Cardassians on board are dead or prisoners of a not-war that hasn't been declared? Are we that eager to kill Cardies?
Good point, yeah. McAdams was surely trying to reach a peaceful resolution, which fits the basic ideals and mission of Starfleet.
On the Gretarians and Sydraxians, I feel that on the level of Starfleet Command and the Federation as a whole, we should push to enact comprehensive policy and objectives for the entire border zone:
Council level:
- Seek approval to intervene on behalf of the Gretarians if they desire it, on humanitarian grounds. Or whatever word passes for humanitarian these days. The Federation had protectorates in canon.
- Undertake the normal diplomatic push on the Gretarians with this understanding and objective in mind, and whatever future pushes are necessary to make it happen.
- Integrate the upcoming diplomatic push on the Yrillians with other regional policy.
Starfleet level:
- Set ROE and patrol policy for the SBZ. Joint response should become the norm if ambushes seem likely. If ships delay their responses to arrive in groups that may be desirable, for example.
- Overgarrison the SBZ once ships are available.
- Assign an Oberth to intelligence duty in the SBZ.
Once the Gretarian and Yrillian questions are understood, and we have better information on Sydraxian actions, we will have the intelligence available to take the next steps. In addition, if our diplomatic actions undertaken with the support of the Council provoke a Sydraxian response, so much the better, as we will draw their moves into the open and will be able to counter them. The policy from the Council would prevent a Bajor situation, as our intervention is pre-approved.
Council level:
- Seek approval to intervene on behalf of the Gretarians if they desire it, on humanitarian grounds. Or whatever word passes for humanitarian these days. The Federation had protectorates in canon.
- Undertake the normal diplomatic push on the Gretarians with this understanding and objective in mind, and whatever future pushes are necessary to make it happen.
- Integrate the upcoming diplomatic push on the Yrillians with other regional policy.
Starfleet level:
- Set ROE and patrol policy for the SBZ. Joint response should become the norm if ambushes seem likely. If ships delay their responses to arrive in groups that may be desirable, for example.
- Overgarrison the SBZ once ships are available.
- Assign an Oberth to intelligence duty in the SBZ.
Once the Gretarian and Yrillian questions are understood, and we have better information on Sydraxian actions, we will have the intelligence available to take the next steps. In addition, if our diplomatic actions undertaken with the support of the Council provoke a Sydraxian response, so much the better, as we will draw their moves into the open and will be able to counter them. The policy from the Council would prevent a Bajor situation, as our intervention is pre-approved.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Okay, Rosalee gets her way the Apiata go back in time, the forager gets attacked whilst doing what it was doing and they don't attack the Jaldun, the Jaldun destroys it and or raids it for what cargo and resources it has.
How is this in any way an acceptable outcome? Even assuming you argue that the Foragers presence where it was is due to the operation it doesn't change the fact that the Jaldun vessel was willing to engage in piracy. At some point we have to accept that pirates are an acceptable target of opportunity. No government should be okay with another power preying on and killing their citizens.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
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- She/Her
This is /literally/ the first act we did at first contact. The Apiata's first experience with us is Enterprise warning off a Cardassian from attacking a forager.
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SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Why are you okay with the Cardassian military engaging in piracy?
Algalon
Herald of the Titans
- Location
- Celestial Planetarium
True, but from the looks of it, it didn't help during the fight, and allowed the Jaldun to flee. The latter I'm perfectly okay with, the former not so much. The Apiata were very vocal when we didn't rush to help the Caitians in their conflict with the Dawiar, I don't want to see how loud they can get when it's them who we aren't rushing to help. Elections are coming up, this incident might give the Hawks some upwind if it catches on. We've already been getting fire for the Syndraxian and Cardassian raids, this is just another incident down the line.
Alright, considering how the Queen wanted the Courageous gone quickly, I'll accept that they may have done more than simply laid out a trap. I'm not happy however, that McAdams would trash talk an allied Captain in the field. Get an official tribunal to look this over and have the Council make a statement.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If McAdams got her way, the Apiata go back in time, the forager gets harassed, screams for help, Courageous threatens to fire on the Jaldun if it doesn't go away, and the Cardassians run away screaming.
This exact thing has happened several times, @SuperSonicSound. It is not just speculation, this is one of the reasons Nash has such a reputation as the boogeyman (or the Queen of the Sleet, if you're an Andorian
) among Cardassians.Alternatively, it wouldn't actually be a problem if an Apiata squadron showed up and mauled the Jaldun as such. The problem isn't the Apiata beating up Cardassian commerce raiders. The problem is that Apiata setting traps for Cardassian commerce raiders, traps that will be equally effective at luring in Federation ships, and then closing the trap on a Cardassian raider without notifying the Federation of what is going on.
If they're willing to gamble on war with Cardassia because they figure we'll back them up, they should trust us with basic information about what they're doing so our ships can respond appropriately.
Letting the Jaldun get away may actually be a more effective way to end the commerce raiding. If the Cardassians send cruisers to raid the Apiata, and those cruisers come back with the snot beaten out of them, the Cardaassians can only conclude that the Apiata are strong, and probably not a good target for harassment. But if the Cardassians send a cruiser to raid, and the cruiser vanishes mysteriously, maybe it was lost to Apiata strength... but maybe it was lost to a Spatial Whozit or something.
Remember, the Cardassians have dozens of ships capable of beating up an Apiata forager. Destroying one or two of them won't end the raiding. The only way to end the raiding is to persuade the Cardassian high command to stop. The Apiata have decided to do that by defeating Cardassian raiders until the raiding campaign becomes prohibitively difficult for Cardassia.
Remember how the Cardassians used to lay traps for our explorers? And remember how they stopped trying to do that after 33 Fujit when Nash did everything short of carve her initials into the hull of the disabled Jaldun that survived the battle? Because they concluded that the price of trapping an Explorer Corps Excelsior was too high to be worth paying.
That is what the Apiata are trying to accomplish here.
And if that was all they were trying to accomplish, I'd actually support them doing so.
It's not clear whether the Apiata even asked for our help, so if so, they'd be blaming us for not helping them when they launch an attack on a warship that was clearly outmatched. If that is their mindset, then integrating them into the Federation is going to be difficult if not impossible anyway, so their displeasure isn't necessarily something we should be too worried about.
Furthermore, are you serious about criticizing McAdams for 'allowing the Jaldun to flee?' Last time I checked, we were not the Apiata Navy's pursuit cavalry. It's not our job to chase down crippled ships fleeing their forces. And even if it were, it would arguably have been counterproductive to the Apiata's actual goals if we had done so.
Thing is, we didn't "allow" this raid. McAdams was set up to do exactly the sort of thing that Captain Nash would have done back in the days when she was shooting her way into Cardassia's horror stories- chasing away a raiding Jaldun harassing an Apiata forager.
When the whole thing turned out to be a deliberately planned Apiata ambush, one which as far as we can tell the Apiata didn't even ask us to participate in... McAdams declined to participate in the planned ambush. I don't see the problem.
Knowing McAdams, I have every reason to think that her actual words were courteous, measured, and civil, because she has never been anything less in the eleven years of gameplay that we've known her. Yes, an Apiata worker had to be restrained from assaulting her- but we already know that many Apiata workers are overzealous about the privileges and safety of their queens. Remember that Apiata colony ship we had to evacuate? There were workers rioting to get spaces on the evacuation transports, not for themselves, but for their queens- queens who were not even in threatened parts of the vessel!
We can't count on Apiata workers to be neutral or reasonable parties when they perceive a slight to their queens.
I think McAdams had some understandable anger at being tossed into the situation without warning. It's unclear from the logs to what extent the Courageous might or might not have interfered in the battle. However if they chose not to intervene without an explicit invitation from the Apiata, that too would be understandable. After all, there was clearly some plan going on here that the Courageous wasn't privy to, and intervening might only have screwed it up. As for a trash-talking an allied captain in the field, everybody involved is a big girl. A few harsh words between command-level officers aren't really a matter for an official tribunal.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Regard the Apiata:
Remember that we have much more intelligence resources than the Apiata likely do; given their societal structure even having spies would be biologically difficult for them and if they didn't get into cloak and dagger at the ground floor, they're probably behind.
With that in mind, they may think they are poking the Cardassian poodle, not the Cardassian hornet's nest. Any sit-down with them must include a full and fair sharing of intelligence assessments and damn the Linderleys.
It also gives us an argument for full membership. If the Cardassians continue to act in this manner towards a full member we'll have little choice but to go to war with them. If they stop, the problem is solved anyways. So we both need to put more work towards the stumbling blocks if they want us on-side.
Regarding the Syndraxians:
The phony war we've been having with them has stopped being funny several times now. They remain committed to it regardless of having thrown a war and nobody came. The situation requires us to take action to resolve it. (As it probably should from a mechanical standpoint.)
To that end, I propose we request from the Council permission to conduct a show-of-force operation. The Syndraxi have shown they will not fight if they do not believe there is glory to be gained. We need to show them that if they do commit to a full-scale war then the descending cloud of Excelsiors will contain very little glory indeed.
Assemble a fleet, centering on say two EC Excelsiors (any would do but the EC are the only ones that are really free most of the time) and including three or four other Starfleet ships, request member assistance from those whose colonies are at risk since free ships don't hurt, and park it in front of a Syndraxi colony for a day. Do nothing overtly threatening. Fire only if fired upon, and if they actually ask us to withdraw, do so. If they demand, well, tell them we'll leave in twenty-four hours. Vulcan officers preferable.
Demonstrate that while our patience is wearing thin, we are not going to start burning their faces off. But we are fully capable of doing so.
Remember that we have much more intelligence resources than the Apiata likely do; given their societal structure even having spies would be biologically difficult for them and if they didn't get into cloak and dagger at the ground floor, they're probably behind.
With that in mind, they may think they are poking the Cardassian poodle, not the Cardassian hornet's nest. Any sit-down with them must include a full and fair sharing of intelligence assessments and damn the Linderleys.
It also gives us an argument for full membership. If the Cardassians continue to act in this manner towards a full member we'll have little choice but to go to war with them. If they stop, the problem is solved anyways. So we both need to put more work towards the stumbling blocks if they want us on-side.
Regarding the Syndraxians:
The phony war we've been having with them has stopped being funny several times now. They remain committed to it regardless of having thrown a war and nobody came. The situation requires us to take action to resolve it. (As it probably should from a mechanical standpoint.)
To that end, I propose we request from the Council permission to conduct a show-of-force operation. The Syndraxi have shown they will not fight if they do not believe there is glory to be gained. We need to show them that if they do commit to a full-scale war then the descending cloud of Excelsiors will contain very little glory indeed.
Assemble a fleet, centering on say two EC Excelsiors (any would do but the EC are the only ones that are really free most of the time) and including three or four other Starfleet ships, request member assistance from those whose colonies are at risk since free ships don't hurt, and park it in front of a Syndraxi colony for a day. Do nothing overtly threatening. Fire only if fired upon, and if they actually ask us to withdraw, do so. If they demand, well, tell them we'll leave in twenty-four hours. Vulcan officers preferable.
Demonstrate that while our patience is wearing thin, we are not going to start burning their faces off. But we are fully capable of doing so.
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