I do not know how effective they are in PVP, but against the computer, I find them annoying, but easy to swat away with beam arrays. Annoying because they're like buzzing little bees. Easy to swat because they're fragile.

Taking them on one by one will take time since they're agile (they can dodge well) and there are several of them. Taking multiple targets at a time, however...

Rooting around in the STO wiki, I found this: Carrier - Official Star Trek Online Wiki

So player-owned carriers are a thing, though I still dunno how effective they are.

I don't really buy the speed issues. For a variety of reasons, combat at speed is not equivalent and need not be equivalent to maximum warp. There may well not be issues with flying fighters around at Warp 5 and then burning their limited deuterium on extra impulse power in the engagement zone.

At the very least, we need to make sure ships can't just outrun the fighters.

The Star Trek boundary between sublight and supralight combat has always been unclear to me. I've read and heard snippets about Star Trek warships fighting while in warp, while at other times they're dropping to sublight to fight. I'm not even sure whether phasers and torpedoes are sublight or supralight.
 
The Star Trek boundary between sublight and supralight combat has always been unclear to me. I've read and heard snippets about Star Trek warships fighting while in warp, while at other times they're dropping to sublight to fight. I'm not even sure whether phasers and torpedoes are sublight or supralight.
Phasers are sublight and Torpedoes can be used during both. It is also possible to use the transporter during warp as well.
 
Well, perhaps, but at least one someone works on these concepts in quest Star Trek.
Yes, but the Apiata "fighters" are half-megaton parasite warships, which is a heck of a lot bigger than most of us are visualizing when we talk about 'fighters' and 'carriers.' The Caitians, whose doctrine seems similarly to revolve around a mix of small swarmers and explorer-sized parent vessels, are in pretty much the same situation.

And while the fighters themselves aren't the million-dollar missiles, torpedoes are, and a big enough spread can kill basically any ship.
Yes, but we simply do not see much evidence of truck-launched photon torpedoes or whatever being a common threat deployed against orbiting starships that forces people to keep their cruisers and explorers out of a planet's translunar space or whatever.

I think we're getting mixed up here.

My point is that so far as we can tell, there is no littoral environment as distinct from the normal conditions of deep-space combat in Star Trek. The key elements of the littoral environment in real life are:

1) It lends itself to asymmetric naval warfare, with small ships, mines, and shore-launched weapons easily being able to wreck large ones.
2) Moreover, ships do not need to be very heavily armed, because even with relatively light weaponry they are still a threat to anything that can operate in or near the littoral zone. Bigger ships that can support large air wings or troop detachments or huge missile armament are desirable, but it makes more sense to have them hang back away from the littorals.
3) Therefore, to fight effectively IN the littorals, it is necessary to have numerous smaller vessels that can absorb losses from surprise attacks and asymmetric threats, while being able to return fire effectively and spread out to 'blanket' the area you're fighting over.

In Star Trek on the whole, there is no specific environment where (1) applies. The obvious candidates (planetary orbit in particular) don't seem to pose that kind of threat, regardless of what we would or would not expect. Furthermore, (2) is not really true. At a bare minimum a ship needs heavy torpedo armament to be a major threat, and there does seem to be a practical minimum size for ships with heavy torpedo armament. The torpedoes themselves may not be any larger than a modern real life cruise missile, but that doesn't mean you can just strap four of them to something the size of a real world B-52 and call it a day. By the time you make the ship big enough, you have something more the size of a Miranda, and less the size of a Bird-of-Prey.

Due to (1) and (2) put together not really being true of Star Trek, (3) is not a particularly valid conclusion to draw from the available evidence.

The equivalent of littorals is not terrain features, but installations. Starbases and outposts create a large area where operating without detection is extremely difficult, plus a protected zone where their weapons will outclass any single ship.
The catch is that "operating within torpedo range of a starbase" is not a common enough requirement to justify an entire category of ship. If you're within torpedo range of a starbase, you don't really need an armed ship of your own; you need a search-and-rescue craft. Conversely, as soon as you are significantly outside the starbase's weapons range, you start needing to worry about whether your ship can stand up to enemy ships on its own merits.

It becomes purely a cost calculation on whether basing additional somewhat mobile but still limited weapons on any given starbases is worth the expense. In peacetime this could just be corvette-sized patrol craft or, well, essentially police boats. In wartime? You'll get armed shuttles and "fighters".
Assuming for the sake of argument that you do attach such craft to a starbase, they effectively represent a fixed component of the starbase's defenses. Not something that redeploys, operates off of mobile 'carrier' ships, and in general acts the way most participants in this discussion have been visualizing fighters.

I don't really buy the speed issues. For a variety of reasons, combat at speed is not equivalent and need not be equivalent to maximum warp. There may well not be issues with flying fighters around at Warp 5 and then burning their limited deuterium on extra impulse power in the engagement zone.
The trick is that in Star Trek there are two separate functional measures of speed.

One is strategic and operational- which is determined entirely by a ship's warp factor.

The other is tactical, which seems to mostly be a question of the ship's impulse power, though some tactical situations may involve maneuvers at low warp in close proximity to the enemy.

If fighters have good tactical speed but poor operational speed, they can't function without a "carrier" because they can't physically reach the battlefields a lot of the time. Plus a fleet cannot advance or retreat at high warp without leaving its fighters behind, or docking them with a faster carrier. BUT in this case the fighters don't work very well with a "carrier" concept that hangs back out of range and avoids being threatened. Your carrier has to look more like a 'battlestar,' with the ability to withstand enemy fire.

And at that point, either the 'fighter' needs to be so large that it becomes a good-sized escort in its own right, or the carrier needs to turn into something like a battleship. This is (again) the situation the Apiata and Caitians find themselves in.

If they have good operational speed but poor tactical speed, they just get chased down and shot to pieces by enemy escort starships.

While sublight and supralight combat need not be identical or equivalent, the point is that 'fighters' must excel at both in order to have any
 
Simon_Jester said:
Uh... I doubt it? Why would you think that?

There is no evidence that the Federation had plans to deploy militarized 'fighter' designs much before the Dominion War. As far as we can tell, mass deployment of Peregrines was a Dominion War stopgap measure. The design probably existed before that time, but the only people who were operating them were the Maquis. If anything that suggests that the 'Peregrine' was actually an upgunned version of an existing non-militarized runabout. The sort of thing the Maquis operated because they couldn't afford many full-sized starships.

Clearly the Federation has production lines to manufacture enough shuttles and runabouts for all its starships, starbases, and internal transportation needs. But why would you think there is a production line for militarized shuttle/fighters? Or a stockpile of such craft? Especially when there's no evidence of them existing prior to somewhere around the end of the TNG era?

I think you misinterpreted what I said, I didn't mean to imply that there where ever ready military production lines for combat small craft just waiting to leap into action.
Rather that there were designs on file for them, and that the industrial capacity of the Federation is such that it can rapidly convert standard shuttle construction facilities to fighter production if there is the need. And likely quite quickly increase their production capacity in short order. This would explain why the Peregrines started turning up so quickly in large numbers during the dominion war.

In all likelihood the Peregrine was originally designed as a light courier runabout (sources say some time in the 2330s), and for most of its service life performed exactly that role. However given the ease at which it became a strike fighter later on I think it likely that it was designed with conversion, or at least combat variants in mind.
These were likely never produced until they were needed.

As to the occurance of fighters, it is true that we never saw them until the late TNG era, however we also never saw the Federation on a war footing until DS9 either. I would suggest that it is very likely that the existed for some time prior to this.
TNG is the first time we see warp capable shuttles, and they are no point implied to be a new occurrance or innovation. So it is reasonable to assume they have been around for a while. Indeed as mentioned before, the Peregrine ,which must have such a small warp drive, is dated by beta canon to the 2330s.
Meanwhile the Federation got into two conflicts that we know of that are worthy of being called wars, one with the Cardassians, and another with the Tzenkathi.

I think it is logical to assume if the Federation got into a stand up war, and had small craft obviously capable of being easily converted to combat roles, that they probably did so. I think it is likely that demilitarised examples of these stored in mothballs is where the Maquis got their Peregrines from.

The Federation is also not the only place we see fighters. The Bajorans operated dedicated sublight interceptors of their own (or at least third party) design prior to the dominion war. And mention is made in DS9 of Romulan interceptors in comparison to a warp shuttle b Rom, also prior to the dominion war. Given how secretive the Romulans are, such craft are highly unlikely to be recent developments, and have likely been around for a while for a Ferengi mechanic to be familiar with their speed.

Then there is the TNG appearance of red squad's single person small craft. These could well be purpose built trainers rather than de-militarised fighters in the training role, but why have such craft for pilot training if not for training pilots to fly small single seat high performance small craft? Surely a shuttle trainer would be more like an actual shuttle.

Nor do fighters appear to have been a war emergency experiment that was dropped afterwards. In Insurrection we see a two seat warp capable 'scoutship' that appears to be of the same generation design as the Sovreign class.
'Scoutship' seems to be the same kind of dual use cover that the Peregrine had. Allowing Starfleet to develop designs for combat dedicated small craft whilst not explicitly building a war fleet. Considering the more warlike countenance of the Federation in the post DS9 era there are quite likely to be actual active duty fighter units equipped with combat focused versions of these.

Similarly in Nemesis we see the Scimitar equipped with whole squadrons of very light fighters (likely sublight), suggesting that several interstellar powers still see the value of combat small craft.


It would seem to me that fighters, especially for the Federation, are a type of craft that are only really seen during war time. Since Star Trek is not really a show about battle fleets and wars, we thus rarely see them. But there is enough evidence to suggest they are fairly widespread in use. Even if they only started to appear in the first half of the 24th century when the technology for compact lightweight warp cores becomes available.


I do agree with some of your points about why fighters don't really seem to fit with the way ship combat in Star Trek seems to work (not that we really know how ship combat in Star Trek works, beyond ships flying at each other firing all their weapons). However fighters do demonstratably exist in Star Trek, and appear to be quite widespread.

The question is whether they will appear in this quest. So far they have not, and there is an argument for continuing the status quo if nothing for simplicity. However there is evidence to suggest that in canon fighters didn't turn up until a decade or two from where we are now, due to technological development, which would neatly explain their current absence.
It is of course totally up to Oneiros, but I would vote in favour of including them, if no other reason than 'star fighters are cool'.
 
Last edited:
Captain's Log - 2311.Q3.M1
Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24448.3 - Captain Samhaya Mrr'shan

Operations back at San Francisco has detailed my ship to escort the Kadeshi fleet as it approaches Earth.

Apparently having this civilisation-spanning fleet approaching the seat of the Federation has created a certain ... sense of excitement among our more paranoid comrades, and especially among United Earth representatives. I am told that the UE is surging forces back from other assignments back home, and Starfleet is attempting to do the same.

-

Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24449.6 - Captain Pavel Chekov

Along with USS Fidelity as an escort, we have been dispatched to the new Gaeni colony of Agat to represent the Federation at the ceremony marking the transition from a caretaker colonial government to a proper Congress of Institutes. I have beamed down with Captain Oriskany of the Fidelity and met with representatives of the Argoia Largat and Madoci Megu Institutes, the two main groups that have founded themselves on Agat.

[Idaran is to the tailward side of Gaen]

-

Distress Call, USS Thirishar, Stardate 24451.3

"...say again, this is the Federation Starship Thirishar, requesting immediate assistance. We are caught in gravitational eddies from a black hole that have caused damage while attempting to rescue a Caldonian ship. We are both in an unstable orbital path and require urgent assistance! Located at..."

-

Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24452.2

Our mission to Agat has been given a twist. A series of unknown vessels have arrived in orbit. It appears we are not the only peoples invited to attend. When I asked my Gaeni counterparts who the newcomers were, they described them as the Licori. As a full political entity it is the Arcadian Empire of Morshadd, but Licori is the most common name outsiders use. When I asked what they were like, the Gaeni called them mad scientists.

I confess, it took me a while to get over that.

The Licori and the Gaeni, from what I can gather, consider each other rivals. They compete technologically, though both still lag behind the Federation. For all of their focus on the sciences, I can't help but think the mortality rates of their scientists have something to do with this lagging. The Licori are apparently especially bad in this regard, using complex processes to turn scientists into mentats, powerful computing lifeforms, who have ten years of brilliance, but then burn out and die.

-

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24452.6

I have hosted the leadership of what the Kadesh refer to as their government in exile.

Most interesting of the group was Rachel Sarjan, who commanded forces during the battles of the Kadesh system when I was serving as First Officer aboard the Enterprise. It was good speaking with her, and I believe we hit it off, sharing old experiences during that crisis. As a result of our experiences, she has invited me to meet Karen Sarjan, who she described as the brains behind the enormous Pride of Kadesh.

-

Starfleet Intelligence Dispatch

We have received word through discreet channels from the Apiata that they have struck and destroyed a convoy belonging to Cardassia and Sydrax in response to ongoing depredation. Sydraxian forces have moved away from the tailward end of the nascent SBZ towards the Apiatan end. As a result, we have issued warnings to the Amarkian Sector Fleet and Cardassian Border Zone fleet to be alert for possible infiltration. As is required, we have alerted a number of Federation organs, most notably the Council and the Diplomatic Service. A closed emergency session of the Council is expected to occur soon.

1 Hasque, 3 Cargo Ships
1 Takaaki, 3 Cargo Ships

-

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24452.8

O-kay, apparently the 'brains behind' comment was a little more literal than I imagined. Karen Sarjan is literally plugged into the ship as an operating system, compensating at a stroke for inferior operating systems technologies. I'm a little unsettled, though not nearly as much as my human crew-members.

-


Captain's Log, USS Inspire, Stardate 24453.1

We have rescued the Thirishar by deploying a powerful anti-graviton beam along with the Thirishar's own to counteract the space-time curvature of the singularity and create a specific "escape" trajectory for the ship to follow in sublight. Our Caldonian allies have then arrived to help ferry the Thirishar to Tipperary for urgent repairs.

-

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24453.4

One of my science officers underwent the process of becoming "unbound", the process the Kadesh use to describe the act of mentally integrating someone into their systems. They took control, if briefly, of a new model Kadeshi frigate. When they were unplugged and returned to the ship, they described it as an amazing, but unnerving, experience. I can imagine that Federation ethicists, especially those from Earth, will express extreme opposition to adoption of this system within Federation ships, though.

[Chief of Staff's NB: Will they ever!]
[Starfleet Commander's NB: I think I can hear the howling already...]

-


Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24453.7


A potential concern has developed. These Licori are in the midst of an interstellar war with a force known as Ked Paddah. The Gaeni are tight-lipped about them, but do not like them at all either. Apparently it is the risk-taking approach to sciences that so offends the Ked Paddah. The local Institutes believe that if the Ked Paddah were not already at war with the Licori, it is likely that they would be at war with the Gaeni.

Despite this, we have managed to make our own contact with the Ked Paddah, and will investigate further.

[New Race Encountered: The Licori, Starting 80/100 (high rolls avoid antagonism with the Federation on account of Gaeni membership]
[New Race Encountered: The Ked Paddah, Starting 25/100]

-

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24458.7

Rachel Sarjan has informed me that the Kadesh intend to take to the Federation Council an offer to have one of our vessels join them on their journey to their new homeworld. This homeworld lies many thousands of lightyears distant, an expected twenty years of travel one-way at the speeds of the Kadesh fleet. However, with the Pride of Kadesh serving as a mobile home base, this may be one of the greatest scientific opportunities the Federation has had since its advent.

[+25 Relations with Kadesh, gained an opportunity]

-
 
Oh nice, all ready nearly at Affiliate with the Licori. And hopefully we can mediate between them and the Ked Paddah to help end that war.

And that opportunity to have a ship accompany the Kadeshi is simply too good to pass up.
 
One of my science officers underwent the process of becoming "unbound", the process the Kadesh use to describe the act of mentally integrating someone into their systems. They took control, if briefly, of a new model Kadeshi frigate. When they were unplugged and returned to the ship, they described it as an amazing, but unnerving, experience. I can imagine that Federation ethicists, especially those from Earth, will express extreme opposition to adoption of this system within Federation ships, though.

[Chief of Staff's NB: Will they ever!]
[Starfleet Commander's NB: I think I can hear the howling already...]
Tempting.
Can we get an estimated increase in efficiency?
Just for curiosity.
 
Our mission to Agat has been given a twist. A series of unknown vessels have arrived in orbit. It appears we are not the only peoples invited to attend. When I asked my Gaeni counterparts who the newcomers were, they described them as the Licori. As a full political entity it is the Arcadian Empire of Morshadd, but Licori is the most common name outsiders use. When I asked what they were like, the Gaeni called them mad scientists.

I confess, it took me a while to get over that.
*groan*

Please, the galaxy can't handle this many crazy scientist races!
 
I want the unbound system for starfleet so so bad!

Who wants to bet it raises effective crew rating by 1 level or more depending on its advancement...

If we can get it pushed through it would masively enhance future ships with said system. Might even try to squeeze in the necesary requirements in the Reneissance so a refit is as easy and streamlined as possible and a definaye for the Ambassador design if we can get it.

But seriously, + x levels of crew rating!
 
Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24449.6 - Captain Pavel Chekov

Along with USS Fidelity as an escort, we have been dispatched to the new Gaeni colony of Agat to represent the Federation at the ceremony marking the transition from a caretaker colonial government to a proper Congress of Institutes. I have beamed down with Captain Oriskany of the Fidelity and met with representatives of the Argoia Largat and Madoci Megu Institutes, the two main groups that have founded themselves on Agat.

[Idaran is to the tailward side of Gaen]
So is the colony's name Agat or Idaran?
 
YAAAAAAAAY!

Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24452.2

Our mission to Agat has been given a twist. A series of unknown vessels have arrived in orbit. It appears we are not the only peoples invited to attend. When I asked my Gaeni counterparts who the newcomers were, they described them as the Licori. As a full political entity it is the Arcadian Empire of Morshadd, but Licori is the most common name outsiders use. When I asked what they were like, the Gaeni called them mad scientists.

I confess, it took me a while to get over that.

WHELP. No seriously, that was possibly the most hilarious way to introduce them.


The Licori and the Gaeni, from what I can gather, consider each other rivals. They compete technologically, though both still lag behind the Federation. For all of their focus on the sciences, I can't help but think the mortality rates of their scientists have something to do with this lagging. The Licori are apparently especially bad in this regard, using complex processes to turn scientists into mentats, powerful computing lifeforms, who have ten years of brilliance, but then burn out and die.

Speaking of things that will make Federation ethicists howl....

Starfleet Intelligence Dispatch

We have received word through discreet channels from the Apiata that they have struck and destroyed a convoy belonging to Cardassia and Sydrax in response to ongoing depredation. Sydraxian forces have moved away from the tailward end of the nascent SBZ towards the Apiatan end. As a result, we have issued warnings to the Amarkian Sector Fleet and Cardassian Border Zone fleet to be alert for possible infiltration. As is required, we have alerted a number of Federation organs, most notably the Council and the Diplomatic Service. A closed emergency session of the Council is expected to occur soon.

1 Hasque, 3 Cargo Ships
1 Takaaki, 3 Cargo Ships

We already knew about this, but now we know about this. God damn it. At least they shouldn't blame Starfleet for- Who am I kidding, they're going to blame Starfleet for not foreseeing and stopping this somehow.

(Admiral Kahurangi plays with her fishing pole and reflects how soon this won't be her problem anymore.)


Captain's Log, USS Inspire, Stardate 24453.1

We have rescued the Thirishar by deploying a powerful anti-graviton beam along with the Thirishar's own to counteract the space-time curvature of the singularity and create a specific "escape" trajectory for the ship to follow in sublight. Our Caldonian allies have then arrived to help ferry the Thirishar to Tipperary for urgent repairs.

Ouch. Can we get a total on the repair times and resources? Any Crew lost? Was the Caldonian ship rescued?

Also, not every day an Oberth saves an Excelsior.

Captain's Log, USS Endurance, Stardate 24453.7


A potential concern has developed. These Licori are in the midst of an interstellar war with a force known as Ked Paddah. The Gaeni are tight-lipped about them, but do not like them at all either. Apparently it is the risk-taking approach to sciences that so offends the Ked Paddah. The local Institutes believe that if the Ked Paddah were not already at war with the Licori, it is likely that they would be at war with the Gaeni.

Despite this, we have managed to make our own contact with the Ked Paddah, and will investigate further.

[New Race Encountered: The Licori, Starting 80/100 (high rolls avoid antagonism with the Federation on account of Gaeni membership]
[New Race Encountered: The Ked Paddah, Starting 25/100]

Oh joy, an interstellar war on our doorstep that risks dragging in an Affiliate. Just another plate for the next Admiral to keep spinning.

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24458.7

Rachel Sarjan has informed me that the Kadesh intend to take to the Federation Council an offer to have one of our vessels join them on their journey to their new homeworld. This homeworld lies many thousands of lightyears distant, an expected twenty years of travel one-way at the speeds of the Kadesh fleet. However, with the Pride of Kadesh serving as a mobile home base, this may be one of the greatest scientific opportunities the Federation has had since its advent.

When would we have to leave? Mainly trying to figure if one of the newly builds coming out might be sent. Also, what class of ship is recommended? An Oberth? A Cruiser like one of the new Connies?
 
Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 24453.4

One of my science officers underwent the process of becoming "unbound", the process the Kadesh use to describe the act of mentally integrating someone into their systems. They took control, if briefly, of a new model Kadeshi frigate. When they were unplugged and returned to the ship, they described it as an amazing, but unnerving, experience. I can imagine that Federation ethicists, especially those from Earth, will express extreme opposition to adoption of this system within Federation ships, though.

[Chief of Staff's NB: Will they ever!]
[Starfleet Commander's NB: I think I can hear the howling already...]
Hey, Gaeni ... have you ever heard of unbound? No? Oh sorry it doesn't matter then, it's only a experimental science to improve starship navigation and handling. Nothing you'd be interested in hearing about surely.
None for Federation tech levels. You already have the cores and OS' to outperform what the Kadesh are doing. What they are doing is compensating for a couple generations of tech.
It may not do anything for Federation Tech as is, but that doesn't mean that the unbound technology as it is has plateaued and can't be improved further.
 
Last edited:
Who wants to bet it raises effective crew rating by 1 level or more depending on its advancement...

You got ninja'd by the GM saying it has litterally no benefit whatsoever.

It may not do anything for Federation Tech as is, but that doesn't mean that the unbound technology as it is has plateaued and can't be improved further.

The technology has one fundamental flaw, in that relies on a brain. You can not improve the brain.

Well, the Federation won't. They're not transhumanist.
 
Last edited:
I'd be up for recruing the new Oberth with an exploration corps crew to send along.

Other options: an Excelsior does everything, but is expensive. Our last Constitution-A is a long range explorer, and is no longer a critical front line ship. A constillation is a cruiser, and can at least operate semi-independently and has a smaller crew.
 
20 years one way, so 40 years until they're back.... Will any ship we send even come back? 40 years.... we're basically losing that crew.
 
Back
Top