If we're 10x or 50x faster (at a steady, sustainable cruising speed that can be kept up for months and years, mind you) then the Kadeshi mothership should stick around Sol while we refit their warp engines. If it can be done in less than 18 years, it would be the smart move. Assuming everyone is showing good common sense, seems unlikely.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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If we're 10x or 50x faster (at a steady, sustainable cruising speed that can be kept up for months and years, mind you) then the Kadeshi mothership should stick around Sol while we refit their warp engines. If it can be done in less than 18 years, it would be the smart move. Assuming everyone is showing good common sense, seems unlikely.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Yup, just making a point that we have intelligence enhancement in TBG canon now.
Personally, I have no problem with it under assumption of informed consent on the part of the enhancee, but my morality is not TBG!Federation morality.
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Bio-neural jell packs seem to imply that there are computing tasks for which the brain remains superior.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
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Their ship is big. Like, really big.
Pretty sure their warp cores are silly expensive, even for us.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Pretty clearly it does. Even in the TOS era, the ship's computer was capable of responding intelligently to natural-language queries and could probably pass the Turing Test. There isn't much sign that putting a human brain in place of the computer would help.
Plus, experiments along those lines have such a history of going horribly wrong in Star Trek that the most honest reaction we can have to the Kadeshi is "we are SO glad that worked, but seriously, you people are only doing this because you're too desperate and inexperienced to know what a bad idea it is."
Leslie's not howling. He just got very, very quiet and is working on how to keep these people away from the antimatter.
Well, I would like us to push the Dawiar and Yrillians, among other things because good relations with them makes it less likely they'll act as Cardassian proxies to hurt us. But I don't want to drive things to extremes.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Our techs might not scale to their ginormous ships without research, but that's a negligible nitpick.
You're still right. But that logic applies at 3x and 6 years too. Hell, we should probably ask them to stick around for a year anyway while we give them the best upgrades we can. As long as we can get them a 10% increase in speed it'd be worth it.
Given our different tech levels we might be able to get them a lot with negligible HW tweaks and some new software. We might also make using human minds to control a ship unnecessary, which would make the federation feel better about itself.
Given how their tech seems to be an incredibly powerful brain computer interface that people can plug into and leave from, is there any reason we can't research it as a way to induce the productively of our researchers (plug into a bank of computers for running analyses, simulations, etc..), engineering crew (much faster than typing all the inputs, able to see all the moving parts of the ship at once) and bridge (imagine if the bridge crew had at will telepathic comms and could speed up their perceptions and reactions in tense situations)
My personal question on diplo pushes is why is the Diplomatic Service so weak that they don't go talk to potential affiliates on their own? Is this a jurisdictional thing? Our ships get plenty of "transport the Ambassador" requests, but they are almost always to either an existing member or affiliate, or to someone we've spent political capital to get the Council to support pushing.
Our options for learning more about first contacts boil down to:
- Throw the EC in their general direction and pray to the dice.
- Use one of our extremely limited intelligence slots, which is itself dependent on information gleaned from existing contacts, in other words, it doesn't go out of their way for more information, just more analysis.
- Council diplo push.
Small wonder we prefer to get as many races as we can to 100.
Our options for learning more about first contacts boil down to:
- Throw the EC in their general direction and pray to the dice.
- Use one of our extremely limited intelligence slots, which is itself dependent on information gleaned from existing contacts, in other words, it doesn't go out of their way for more information, just more analysis.
- Council diplo push.
Small wonder we prefer to get as many races as we can to 100.
- Location
- USA
The Ked Paddah and Graterians would need multiple pushes to reach affiliate status, and one push on each should be enough to give us the opportunity to mediate between the Ked Paddah and Licori and also stop the Graterians from being exploited by the Sydraxians. As it is pushing races up to 100 still means a long time before hitting 500 for membership. About 20 on average for the annual roll needing 400 points gives 20 years from 100.
But diplomatic pushes don't actually give us information either.
Let's be realistic- AI and pseudo AI in Star Trek have at least as much a history of going horribly wrong if not moreso. Lore, as an example, may rear his ugly head in the nearish future. James Moriarty. And so forth.
The main issue that the Federation would have with the idea is not really moral squeamishness per se or even practical concerns but rather one of the doctrine they've set up where there are checks and balances on power and inherent ability. They'd always be opposed to an ubermensch of whatever flavor as a matter of course, just like they'd always be opposed to putting a powerful starship literally under an individual's complete control.
Basically, the Federation as a whole believes that power corrupts. Humanity, as a result of Khan's legacy, believes that even natural ability corrupts. And for now humans are an overwhelming presence in Starfleet.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Also before we send any ships with the Kadeshi we should get some important concessions.
Any ships we send should also have the basic provisions needed for a full academy curriculum. We will need to train people up over the course of this.
- Once they get to their destination, Starfleet members can get citizenship with the Kadeshi and choose to stay with them. Identical to any current member of the Kadeshi fleet.
- People are going to get married and want to stay, and numerous other similar things. I want the starfleet members going with them to have the option written in law.
- This is irrelevant if everyone on the starfleet ships gets some sort of official civilian status under Kadeshi law that is equivalent to Kadeshi citizen's.
- There must be some way for the admiral/captain we send to induct Kadeshi into starfleet. (With the concent of the Kadeshi government and the individual in question)
- We will need new personnel at some point. The Kadeshi will also likely send people to us for training. An official mechanism to do this is necessary.
- This didn't really apply if our ship is meant to be part of the Kadeshi command heirarchy.
Any ships we send should also have the basic provisions needed for a full academy curriculum. We will need to train people up over the course of this.
- Location
- Someplace USA
Sweet it's back from winter hibernation
As for the Kadeshi it's a question of where there going in the galaxy and how long we have to send a ship to hook up. I'm also wondering if any ship we send can communicate back to us or if we're stuck till they enter federation territory again.
As for the Kadeshi it's a question of where there going in the galaxy and how long we have to send a ship to hook up. I'm also wondering if any ship we send can communicate back to us or if we're stuck till they enter federation territory again.
I suspect that what is happening is Starfleet is using it's political clout to support the Diplomatic Service to improve relations with 4 alien races every year. That this basically means that Starfleet has been the key political force behind all the new members is... Um... Probably one of those things the rest of the Federation is still figuring out how to handle and making some people nervous about Bonapartism and Starfleet taking over the Fed.
fasquardon
I think a Constitution-B is the best choice for sending on the grand expedition. Anything less might not be durable or balanced enough to make it, and anything more we cannot afford to send off into the great black yonder.
An oberth is an attractive option for its science, but overall the ship is just too weak in other areas and too small, too little long term endurance. If we had some kind of larger science cruiser that would be the obvious pick, but we don't.
Also remember the Kadeshi are travelling to a far away part of the galaxy, we know for a fact that there be monsters out there. We want to send somethign that has some teeth as well.
In any case there is something bold, and star treky about sending our newest ship with a fresh volunteer EC crew out into the great unknown.
I wonder if we can get extra brownie points from the council for launching the first twenty year mission...
An oberth is an attractive option for its science, but overall the ship is just too weak in other areas and too small, too little long term endurance. If we had some kind of larger science cruiser that would be the obvious pick, but we don't.
Also remember the Kadeshi are travelling to a far away part of the galaxy, we know for a fact that there be monsters out there. We want to send somethign that has some teeth as well.
In any case there is something bold, and star treky about sending our newest ship with a fresh volunteer EC crew out into the great unknown.
I wonder if we can get extra brownie points from the council for launching the first twenty year mission...
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Right, but then why doesn't the Diplomatic Service have the political clout to support themselves?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Why do I get the feeling this is how the Borg got started?
To quote a certain UN commissioner:
"I think, and my thoughts cross the barrier into the synapses of the machine - just as the good doctor intended. But what I cannot shake, and what hints at things to come, is that thoughts cross back. In my dreams the sensibility of the machine invades the periphery of my consciousness. Dark. Rigid. Cold. Alien. Evolution is at work here, but just what is evolving remains to be seen."
I'm not trying to be willfully alarmist here, but we're playing with matches in a type of house we know has burned down before.
That's more or less my point. Research into creating and enhancing intelligence, or making machines smarter, has a LOT of potential to go horribly wrong in Star Trek. It goes right once in a while, but not often enough to be even remotely safe.
It's not like it's going alone. We're talking about accompanying an entire civilization-ship. Too weak, too small, too little endurance can be mitigated if it can park in a Mothership berth for repairs or whenever things get dangerous.
And frankly.... what we're likely to get from this, mechanically, is a Research Points bonus every year. Sort of a mobile Research colony. I don't really want to spend more than an Oberth on that. Remember we're stretched thin. We've got the Cardassians and the Sydraxians maybe heating up again from this damnfool shit the Apiata pulled, not to mention an ongoing war with the Syndicate. I don't think we can afford a Constitution-B. If it's a Connie-B or nothing, I'd vote nothing!
Actually I've changed my mind, why not an Excelsior?
They are one of our most numerous ships, and we practically have a production line set up for them. Sending one out beyond the frontier won't hurt us too badly. More than that they are explicitly designed for this sort of thing. If we want to do this, we should do it right and send out absolute best.
Other interstellar powers might horde their capital ships close to home in their great warfleets, but not us, not the Federation. We send them out to explore the galaxy. So lets send the next Excelsior out of the shipyards, to truly go where no one has been before.
(IIRC it was going to be an EC one anyway.)
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I don't want to send out anything bigger than the Mothership can accommodate in a repair berth, and I suspect that an Excelsior is too big.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I support the desire to make sure whatever ship we send out has ready access to maintenance and repair.
And it'd certainly establish the Oberth-class's "long range explorer" cred, with emphasis on "long range."
That said, I do have one concern: once this ship reaches its destination, how do we get it back? An Oberth flying back from the new Kadeshi homeworld is very likely to suffer some kind of fatal mishap along the way, I would think. A larger, stronger ship would be better able to take care of itself.
And it'd certainly establish the Oberth-class's "long range explorer" cred, with emphasis on "long range."
That said, I do have one concern: once this ship reaches its destination, how do we get it back? An Oberth flying back from the new Kadeshi homeworld is very likely to suffer some kind of fatal mishap along the way, I would think. A larger, stronger ship would be better able to take care of itself.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Here's a thought: Whatever ship we send has a good chance of becoming a generation ship. Thus, it might not be a bad idea to ask for colonist volunteers.
If we're going to open things up to colonists, we might as well just ask the Vulcans or some other long-lived race if they could send one of their native defense fleet ships in our stead.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
I'm tempted to send a Rennie to catch up with them.
- Location
- Patriarchova
I dunno, it's a huge ship and can probably repair one of their Motherships in it's bay. Given that in homeworld canon, the largest factory bay floor actually is a huge detachable spacedock door, and judging by the fact that said door is about 20% the height of the whole ship, I think if this one is scaled similarly they have room to spare. You might want to include some sort of landing gear though.
Hopefully, they can make enough friends and such along the way to negotiate the use of facilities and charts to make their way back quicker or to make repairs and refuel along the path. After all, space is wide, but it is also full of potential friends and enemies. Sending a large ship with the capacity for an ambasador or two might make sense, we would need to run the numbers.
It would have to be *The* Rennie or none at all I'm afraid. The following members of the class would take too long unless we want to bypass the normal prototype stages and go to immediate serial production with all the unfixed flaws still baked into the design.