The thing that's got people worrying is that the "gun Takaaki" has a statline of C4 S1 H3 L3 P1 D2. In other words, it's a combat powerhouse that sacrifices virtually all the event-response and non-combat performance we expect from most of our escorts.

I wonder how sacrificing all event-response and non-combat performance is actually working out for the Cardassians. Perhaps it's part of the reason they're so resource-constrained.

This is a case where I think our doctrinal choice hasn't been to our advantage. Ideally our escorts should be, in fact, escorts; not deployed alone, but in a group or as helpers to other ships. But we haven't emphasized that in either our theory doctrine or our deployments.

Basically, starships are too valuable and useful to travel in packs outside of wartime. There's always something more useful an escort could be doing other than tagging along with other ships as back-ups.

Even for the border zones, they spread out to look for trouble rather than sticking too close together. Perhaps once we get Forward Defense up and running, we might have the border zones packed with enough ships that multi-ship responses are the rule.
 
If we did it at the same time the war started, the time required to design and prototype the ship would cumulatively take so long that the war would be over before we finished. One or two years to get political approval and do the design work, followed by three years to prototype, is about as long as a war can realistically last.

So personally, I'd advocate building Miranda-As NOW, while simultaneously starting work on something superior to supplant/replace them with after the war. Among other things because by the end of said war, there'd presumably be a lot of badly damaged or overworked Miranda-As lying around that we'd need to write off for scrap or otherwise rid ourselves of. We'd need something to replace them with, or at least a more satisfactory design we could use in the event of further hostilities.

In wartime, you generally mass-produce whatever designs you have, rather than stopping to build a completely new design after the war starts. See Superiority, by Arthur C. Clarke, for an example of why.

I'm not personally speaking of a war design. I'm saying that if we wanted cheap escorts and we were willing to produce a ship today, we should make it a new design so that when the war happens in 5 years or whatever we have a modern cheap escort available. Obviously prototyping in wartime is not ideal, but the 3y prototype is not a difficult choice for a fresh new escort today when there are no wars.


On a separate note, the cutter can be optimized further by modelling smaller parts, in particular, warp cores. But those parts aren't modeled yet, so there is some difficulty in doing this today and getting 2:1 numbers on a combat Takaaki. We could come close though.
 
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I'm pretty sure the combat formula is based on a straight-up combat/combat comparison. Because of this, the Lorgot can wipe the walls with anything we have other than an Excelsior one-on-one, because it will hit at least (7^1.15)/(12^1.15) of the time, and it has shields as tough as anything we have.

Minor correction: The taking to 1.15 power is done separately for each opposing fleets' strengths, not together. So this should be (7^1.15)/(7^1.15+5^1.15). Which actually improves the Lorgot's to-hit chance in this example.
 
I'm not personally speaking of a war design. I'm saying that if we wanted cheap escorts and we were willing to produce a ship today, we should make it a new design so that when the war happens in 5 years or whatever we have a modern cheap escort available. Obviously prototyping in wartime is not ideal, but the 3y prototype is not a difficult choice for a fresh new escort today when there are no wars.
That maps back to one of my other points- that we're going to have a steep uphill struggle to get political approval for a new "cheap and nasty" escort design. We can get cheap, but it will probably result in a ship no stronger than, possibly weaker than, a Miranda-A, because we'll have to pitch it as an internal patrol customs boat or whatever. Or we can get nasty (that is, powerful in combat), but it won't be cheap, because the ship will need to have enough peacetime utility use (science/presence/defense) to justify its firepower.

Even designing this ship class will be tough, because you'll note that it's the "design a new escort" step of the approval process that costs us political will.

The reason I've been advocating the Miranda-A as our "this escort is for fighting" ship is not because it's the best warship I can imagine us building. It's because, as a legacy design that we already 'own,' we don't have to pay additional political costs for maintaining a fleet of the things, or for deploying them to areas where we anticipate combat.

By contrast, while we are almost sure to design a next-generation escort some time in the next 10-15 years of game time, I'm betting that it will almost certainly be a generalist escort, a successor to the Centaur-A with equal or superior stats and relatively high cost.
 
Of course, the Klingons may well have the same problem. In both cases the obvious solution is to use superior combat power to coerce others into doing the labor- an approach which has a variety of advantages and disadvantages.
 
It really says something that we can match or outmatch the combat-focused ships of our peers despite our investment into science and diplomacy (which we are able to take advantage of).
 
Well, we kind of... can't match them, one-for-one.

The Excelsior is quite a lot larger and probably more expensive than the Lorgot, but probably loses in a fair fight.

The Renaissance beats the Jaldun and Kaldar despite being smaller, but it's probably a generation more advanced as a ship, and that gives it an advantage. I doubt that Rennies will stack up so well against the Galors, or whatever intermediate class we may see between the Jalduns and Galors.

And the Centaur can't outfight the gun Takaaki or outscience the science Takaaki.

That said, we ARE able to match and overwhelm the Cardassians on sheer numbers and industrial output... which has a tremendous amount to do with our ships' ability to wage diplomacy and 'win the peace' and persuade other species to join our Federation voluntarily.
 
I personally don't think we need a takaaki-equivalent combat escort of our own. We're Lone Ranger, the lizards are Combined Arms. I'm okay with their escorts outgunning ours as long as we have superior capital ships. Which we sort of do right now, when you consider that they only typically have 1-2 lorgots.

I just don't think we should ignore those powerful escorts of theirs when running combat calculations.


EDIT: regarding science escorts, keep in mind that our counterpart to the science takaaki isn't the centaur, it's the oberth.
 
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Part of the issue is that the calculations simply become too complicated when you consider every combination of ships. I can analyze any one possibility, but only one at a time, after all.

Also, other issues come into play like the concept of "virtual attrition." For example, imagine a hypothetical scenario where our cruisers couldn't defeat their cruisers without support from one of our escorts. In that case, given that the Cardassians have lots of cruisers they can send to roam around the borders, our "minimum unit" that could operate safely would be either an explorer or a cruiser+escort duet.

Forcing our smaller ships to operate in pairs or risk being cut off and easily destroyed by lone enemy units, of which the enemy has a large number, would effectively halve the size of our force. We could only put ships in, say, four places at a time, rather than eight. Thus, we would have suffered a measure of 'virtual attrition,' in that a significant percentage of our forces is partially neutralized without firing a shot.

Conversely, if the Cardassians are the ones who need escort to handle our cruisers, they have the same problem. Which harms them in other ways.
 
Lone Ranger works perfectly fine in peacetime, though in wartime we probably want a different doctrine, given that we probably do not want to sent Explorers unsupported into combat. Swarm Doctrine looks quite fine to me, in that respect, to leverage the Federation's superior industrial strength.

Looking at things, it'd be nice to research multiple doctrines, so we could swap through them in response to different threats.
 
Lone Ranger works perfectly fine in peacetime, though in wartime we probably want a different doctrine, given that we probably do not want to sent Explorers unsupported into combat. Swarm Doctrine looks quite fine to me, in that respect, to leverage the Federation's superior industrial strength.
Lone Ranger doesn't require us send Explorers off alone. The only direct combat effects of Lone Ranger are:
  1. +5% Fleet Combat when outnumbered
  2. +1 Shield when outnumbered 2:1 or more
The former is basically always going to happen as Lone Ranger, and our play-style, promotes few higher power ships over lots of low power ones so odds are we'll be outnumbered in any major confrontation. The latter is really only ever relevant in small skirmishes since at fleet sizes, even with Explorers vs. Escorts, if a 2:1 numerical disadvantage exists you're in serious trouble.

Looking at things, it'd be nice to research multiple doctrines, so we could swap through them in response to different threats.
Doctrines can't be easily switched:
Well that and changing them is liable to cause your entire set-up to explode underneath you.

Edit: To elaborate, when your combat bonuses are no longer discounted by the Council and before the new doctrine eventually kicks in (these things don't change on a dime) then you're liable to get a lot of heat from the Council, plus you lose your combat bonuses and other goodies in the interim.
Well, as mentioned in my edit, there you can't just shift the intellectual and doctrinal standing of your fleet on a dime. There will be a transitional period where you lose your discounts and your combat bonuses.
 
"Lone Ranger" is a bit of a misnomer. What that fleet doctrine promotes is quality over quantity, not ships going off alone.
 
Given our fundamental restrictions in that we literally are not allowed to build purely combat ships, and everyone else can, I don't think we can realistically build an efficient combat escort. We certainly can't get away with a high-Combat, low-Science/Presence ship until the plot allows us to do so (Defiant!). That basically restricts us to either using our high level of technology to build really efficient ships that let us have more Combat/Shields per unit cost in materials and crew (Miranda model) or simply having the biggest, bad-ass vessels we have as the largest percentage of our fleet (Lone Ranger model). It's a good thing that we are the diplomacy faction, given that the Klingons are coming out with the B'rel in a few years and that thing basically smacks the Rennie good in almost every category (-1 S/L in exchange for +4H, and costs 20BR and 1O/E/T less, too!)

An option here might be to aim for a really cheap patrol ship with stats = 2 across the board except for D3, all crew = 1, and try to save on materials. Hard to know if this is doable until the sheet shakes down, of course, but this could allow us to maintain our Defense requirements pretty effectively while we build murderballs of Mirandas and Excelsiors to do combat.
 
Just thought are fighters going to turn up in this?

Because they very much become a thing in canon by the 2360-2370s, albeit never really focused on much.
Because this is of course the Federation it appears that the small craft were obtained for different roles, but despite being orginally a small courier, and a heavy long range shuttle respectively, the Peregrine and Danube seem to fill out the roles of strike fighter and bomber/gunship very well.

Perhaps the technology to make viable combat small craft only turns up in the 2350s (when the Peregrine is presumably made). In fact it seems like a lot of military designs by stealth were implemented around then, just look at the Ju'Day, which is bascially a Federation bird of prey. And it would have been around then that they started the programs to design the Saber and Akiras.
 
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When Oneiros is able to include them in his combat calculator. :V
I've considered that I might want to use the same app I wrote to handle the shuttle swarm attack to handle fighter attacks as a precursor phase to a battle. I might put some thought and effort into rewriting the full combat app, give it a more thought out approach, implement some changes I've been looking to add.
 
The efficacy of fighters depends on how they hit our Combat cap. If Fighters = combat with no Science or Defense boost, they wouldn't be as worthwhile. I wouldn't be surprised if trying to develop such a military-focused ship would hit us with Militarization points, too...
 
The efficacy of fighters depends on how they hit our Combat cap. If Fighters = combat with no Science or Defense boost, they wouldn't be as worthwhile. I wouldn't be surprised if trying to develop such a military-focused ship would hit us with Militarization points, too...

Well a I said earlier the canon fighters were procured as non military or dual role vessels.
Maybe the peregrine was designed as a courier with a secondary fighter role, with only a handful actually built. When the Dominon war happend a fighter focused varient was then ready to go from war emergency production lines.
If this is true the Peregrines the maquis aquired where likely from an earlier war production run, maybe with the Cardassians.

Under this paradigm fighters would be mostly handled beneath our notice, like shuttles. We would only having to deal with them in wartime. When we would have to allocate resources to the construction and replacement of fighter squadrons.
After a war they all get decommisioned or mothballed with only a few kept on in the original courier role.
 
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Well a I said earlier the canon fighters were procured as non military or dual role vessels.
Maybe the peregrine was designed as a courier with a secondary fighter role, with only a handful actually built. When the Dominon war happend a fighter focused varient was then ready to go from war emergency production lines.
If this is true the Peregrines the maquis aquired where likely from an earlier war production run, maybe with the Cardassians.

Under this paradigm fighters would be mostly handled beneath our notice, like shuttles. We would only having to deal with them in wartime. When we would have to allocate resources to the construction and replacement of fighter squadrons.
After a war they all get decommisioned or mothballed with only a few kept on in the original courier role.

Actually, that is exactly what happened. The first time we saw peregrines used as warships was by the Maquis, and they were said to be weaponized couriers.
 
@Briefvoice
Marines and MACO have a too militaristic connotation. I can't think of anything else though.

Something with 'rescue' would be good. I'd imagine that UESPA would have dedicated Search and Rescue teams on the Liberty.

Pararescue?

My point is that the usage of Marines and the militaristic flavor is too militaristic for the 2300s. Sure, back in Archer's days, they had the MACOs, but we aren't Archer's Starfleet, and UESPA isn't the UE Starfleet from back then.

If someone can come up with a good acronym using rescue or pararescue, I'd support that, since it aligns more with the era's relatively pacifistic flavor. Or just Pararescue.

I say go with Rangers. It describes the whole 'detached duty' aspect, it makes sense in both a 'police action' and 'exploration' environment, it's sounds just militaristic enough to cover the 'security' aspect without sounding actually militant.

"USS We Probably Shouldn't Have Licked That"

 
That basically restricts us to either using our high level of technology to build really efficient ships that let us have more Combat/Shields per unit cost in materials and crew (Miranda model) or simply having the biggest, bad-ass vessels we have as the largest percentage of our fleet (Lone Ranger model).

This isn't strictly true. An Excelsior may lose against the equivalent of resources in Centaur-As, especially in crew, assuming there's no severe focus firing. A lot of analysis on this at least a hundred pages ago.

In my estimation, Lone Ranger excels during peacetime and exploration, is passable at short-term conflicts, and suffers in long-term conflicts due to eventual attrition of our big expensive vessels compared to the other doctrines.

It's a good thing that we are the diplomacy faction, given that the Klingons are coming out with the B'rel in a few years and that thing basically smacks the Rennie good in almost every category (-1 S/L in exchange for +4H, and costs 20BR and 1O/E/T less, too!)

Keep in mind that Klingon and Romulan "canon" stat lines are getting revised. The existing K'tinga and Romulan BoP are definitely getting the nerf bat. And now that future canon stat lines are only being used as very tentative targets, with far future ones likely being very inaccurate, we shouldn't assume the B'rel is going to have that stat line.

Just thought are fighters going to turn up in this?

Because they very much become a thing in canon by the 2360-2370s, albeit never really focused on much.
Because this is of course the Federation it appears that the small craft were obtained for different roles, but despite being orginally a small courier, and a heavy long range shuttle respectively, the Peregrine and Danube seem to fill out the roles of strike fighter and bomber/gunship very well.

Perhaps the technology to make viable combat small craft only turns up in the 2350s (when the Peregrine is presumably made). In fact it seems like a lot of military designs by stealth were implemented around then, just look at the Ju'Day, which is bascially a Federation bird of prey. And it would have been around then that they started the programs to design the Saber and Akiras.

Hah, I remember this was almost my first question when I started participating in this quest back in page 100 or so.

I figure that fighters in Star Trek do require some requisite tech to make them viable.

Consider why fighters are a thing: Looking at how fighters are used in WW2 and sci-fi in general, fighters provide tactical range and first strike capability. The downsides of fighters are the lack of long-term staying power (requiring carriers or bases) and attritional cost. But that attritional cost is a bit misleading - it mostly weighs in within a battle, where losing fighters means losing combat capability during the battle, instead of in attritional production costs, since the total combat capability of fighters is likely much easier to produce than the equivalent non-carrier capital ship.

Now in Star Trek, it's that "first strike capability" that's thrown into doubt. ST's warp FTL is more similar to Mass Effect's real-space FTL, in that it provides tactical speed and agility, and there's no correlation between smaller ships and faster speed in Star Trek. Excelsiors are currently considered one of the fastest, if not the fastest, ships in the known galaxy right now.

Viable fighters need to have sufficiently minitiaturized warp cores and engines and "burst" FTL capability to be faster than larger ships during battle to actually have that first strike capability. And that's all likely to require further tech.

Also, fighters typically aren't needed for sensor purposes, because a) FTL sensors exist, and apparently larger ships can have better such sensors; and b) you could use drones or runabouts for that anyway.

I've considered that I might want to use the same app I wrote to handle the shuttle swarm attack to handle fighter attacks as a precursor phase to a battle. I might put some thought and effort into rewriting the full combat app, give it a more thought out approach, implement some changes I've been looking to add.

As a bonus, it'll invalidate lots of our fleet combat analysis :D Uncertainty FTW?
 
Keep in mind that Klingon and Romulan "canon" stat lines are getting revised. The existing K'tinga and Romulan BoP are definitely getting the nerf bat. And now that future canon stat lines are only being used as very tentative targets, with far future ones likely being very inaccurate, we shouldn't assume the B'rel is going to have that stat line.

The B'rel statline we have looks pretty off to me. I thought the B'rel was a mid twenty-fourth century bird of prey, not a freaking light cruiser.
 
Perhaps the technology to make viable combat small craft only turns up in the 2350s (when the Peregrine is presumably made). In fact it seems like a lot of military designs by stealth were implemented around then, just look at the Ju'Day, which is bascially a Federation bird of prey. And it would have been around then that they started the programs to design the Saber and Akiras.
It's definately possible that shuttle-craft or runabout sized attack craft are not viable at this time. Maybe there's a minimum sized ship that can effectively mount torpedoes and ship-grade phasers. Maybe warp cores and impulse engines are a limiting factor. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Are lasers>missiles, preventing We'eber FTL Cruise Missiles from dominating the setting? We want to avoid that sort of thing, to be sure.
The B'rel statline we have looks pretty off to me. I thought the B'rel was a mid twenty-fourth century bird of prey, not a freaking light cruiser.
The B'rel is a light cruiser-on the Draysom Technical Institute fanpage, which was used as a source for some of the numbers in this quest.
 
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