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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Derek58 said:
The reveal of just how dangerous the biophage is would be the end of season 1, with dealing with it being the first part of s2.

Hmm, and maybe seeing the first failed loop of the Cardassian ambush of the Enterprise, ending with it's destruction, would be the s2 cliffhanger, starting s3 off with Nash starting the next loop :p
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I disagree on the Biophage. Without the Biophage in season 1 there's no main enemy to confront or major plot. So I think the Romulan visit would be the mid season reveal, and the second half of season one would be the crisis. The season end would either be the victory celebration of Kadesh or the launching of the Miracht. The Cardassians are the season two enemies.
 
[X] Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep

Tactical Voting activated!
As I said before, pushing way of the Anchor early for those response bonuses.
 
I'd actually really like to vote for Plan Chaeronea, because @Chaeronea did a good job laying out a plan and justifying it. But I think ToC Weapons is actually important and want to start seriously researching weapons tech as soon as feasible, because arming our ships with obsolete weapons is... problematic. And the only other plan that includes ToC weapons is the one I'm already voting for: Void Stalker's plan.

Nix said:
Compared to my plan it's doing Klingon Research (currently not a priority at all IMO), TOC weapons (won't finish any techs any time soon, so not relevant for an Ambassador project starting in 2310 or anything else we are likely to do within the next decade) and Escort Science (the current crew requirements make a custom science ship a very unattractive choice until we have researched some crew saving techs, we would be better off with an Oberth refit).
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Okay, I begin to understand.

I do agree with the issue involving the Oberths and the impracticality of doing better than them on a small hull because it means we have to pack an excessive number of techs into a flying-bomb hull. Hopefully Oneiros will tinker with that so that it is actually possible to design viable science vessels, but that won't be happening yet. I don't consider Klingon research important either, though we shouldn't neglect it entirely, because maintaining peace with Klingons requires understanding Klingons. When "the Wall came down in space" at Khitomer, the Federation didn't understand the Klingons very well, in my opinion.

Where I sharply differ from you is on two issues.

One catch is, I don't consider starting the Ambassador project in 2310 desirable, because I want the Ambassadors to be qualitatively better ships than the Excelsiors, not just bigger ones. Another five years' research might very well make the difference between a slightly bigger Excelsior and a ship that can really hold its own into the mid-century. We're still using some first-generation techs in the design process, and I don't want that. Given that it takes something in the neighborhood of ten years to design and prototype a ship, waiting until 2315 to start the Ambassador doesn't present problems if we want the class to come into service starting in the 2320s, which seems like a reasonable goal and is in line with canon.

Another is that I think we need to prioritize weapons research. We are already a bit behind the curve, I think, and we only just got our weapons team. We should use it; it will make it a lot easier for us to build competitive ships in the future. I mean, you're basically talking about designing an Ambassador that will be armed with 23rd century weapons, and I don't think that's a good idea.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
I really don't get why you're voting for this over Nixs plan.
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I really don't get why I got singled out :confused:

Nix said:
There still hasn't been anyone who answered what they actually like better about Plan Renaissance and Counter Intel. It's not just that I'd like to be able to address any possible reasons for it, I'm also curious. Particularly the doctrine/foreign analysis assignments don't make sense if you consider the very likely event bonus to Cardassian Research. Do people want a new combat escort soon or something? Or is it the Renaissance in the plan name?
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I want the Tiger Team on Cardassian Research.
 
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Nervos Belli said:
I disagree on the Biophage. Without the Biophage in season 1 there's no main enemy to confront or major plot. So I think the Romulan visit would be the mid season reveal, and the second half of season one would be the crisis. The season end would either be the victory celebration of Kadesh or the launching of the Miracht. The Cardassians are the season two enemies.
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I thought it was traditional that nothing interesting should happen in the first season of a modern Trek show?

fasquardon
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, I understand the research system just fine, personally- but when there are twenty teams doing research on twenty subjects, it is not possible to vote meaningfully unless someone goes in, specifically highlights the differences between the plans, and explains them.

Like, if we could say "Plan Bob works harder on building spaceship hulls and engines than Plan Fred, but pays for it by working less hard on computer techs for intelligence and on redshirt protection for our crews," I could work with that. But if I have "Plan Bob researches A, B, C, ... Q, R, S, and T, and Plan Fred researches A, C, D, E, ..., Q, R, S, and V..."

Harder to keep track if that's all I have to go on.
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It should be a lot easier next time. Usually research bites assume all the teams stay in the same place except for what is explicitly changed in the plan. It's just that there was a huge research reshuffle a few days ago.

I also agree with you that we should be researching weapons since weapon techs grant a small chance of ignoring shields, which in invaluable considering that the Cardassian battlecruiser has strong shields but weak hull.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'd actually really like to vote for Plan Chaeronea, because @Chaeronea did a good job laying out a plan and justifying it. But I think ToC Weapons is actually important and want to start seriously researching weapons tech as soon as feasible, because arming our ships with obsolete weapons is... problematic. And the only other plan that includes ToC weapons is the one I'm already voting for: Void Stalker's plan.

Okay, I begin to understand.

I do agree with the issue involving the Oberths and the impracticality of doing better than them on a small hull because it means we have to pack an excessive number of techs into a flying-bomb hull. Hopefully Oneiros will tinker with that so that it is actually possible to design viable science vessels, but that won't be happening yet. I don't consider Klingon research important either, though we shouldn't neglect it entirely, because maintaining peace with Klingons requires understanding Klingons. When "the Wall came down in space" at Khitomer, the Federation didn't understand the Klingons very well, in my opinion.

Where I sharply differ from you is on two issues.

One catch is, I don't consider starting the Ambassador project in 2310 desirable, because I want the Ambassadors to be qualitatively better ships than the Excelsiors, not just bigger ones. Another five years' research might very well make the difference between a slightly bigger Excelsior and a ship that can really hold its own into the mid-century. We're still using some first-generation techs in the design process, and I don't want that. Given that it takes something in the neighborhood of ten years to design and prototype a ship, waiting until 2315 to start the Ambassador doesn't present problems if we want the class to come into service starting in the 2320s, which seems like a reasonable goal and is in line with canon.

Another is that I think we need to prioritize weapons research. We are already a bit behind the curve, I think, and we only just got our weapons team. We should use it; it will make it a lot easier for us to build competitive ships in the future. I mean, you're basically talking about designing an Ambassador that will be armed with 23rd century weapons, and I don't think that's a good idea.
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You talk about things as if this game was working purely narratively instead of maybe 20% narratively and these particular things maybe 2% narratively. The stats for the Ambassador are already known, except for cost and reliability. Researching more techs first will not improve them. The Ambassador already represents a substantial improvement over the Excelsior (85% win chance against a Lorgot, compared to 40%). A custom design is not a good idea at the moment due to how crew works, and Oneioros doesn't want to see too many custom designs anyway (only to fill holes), so the odds of that improving after we explicitly decided to use a custom design instead of a canon ship look pretty bad. And even if you want a custom Explorer started in 2315 that is even slightly better than the Ambassador we really need to research explorer design now. Those techs take a long time so we can't just start a few years before.

There is no qualitatively different weapons tech coming up any time soon, it will just be the same phasers and photon torpedoes as always. Our combat stats are completely fine, they just happen to come from things like computing instead of of weapons tech. Combat is by far the most directly modeled part of the game, with no room for narrative at all; unlike other things it's completely automated so even if Oneiros wanted throwing in some narrative element on a whim would be pretty difficult. If anything using inferior weapons teach now will make it easier to raise combat later with a refit, those are a lot more likely to be influenced by narrative aspects.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
Nope no mechanical effect as we're extremely likely to get +5 to cardassian doctrine tech from events, in the event that we don't it's possible IIRC that one sub category could complete that otherwise might not.

@Nix could you elaborate?
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See here. There is no difference for Intelligence Analysis I, the most important tech, even if we don't get any event bonus. A very likely event bonus (not getting any progress from the battle of Fijit would be rather odd) would mean there is no difference for the other techs either. This isn't just restricted to an event bonus this turn, it would also work for event boni next turn. if we get no event bonus any of the other techs that get the yearly inspiration either this or next year would also finish at the same time in either plan. So it is unlikely for there to be any difference at all, and if there is one it will not be for the most important tech.
 
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[X] Base Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep

Simply because Stalker never updated his plan with the Doctrine research I wanted
 
Nix said:
There is no qualitatively different weapons tech coming up any time soon, it will just be the same phasers and photon torpedoes as always.
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Of course by that same token we won't get there any time late if we don't get started soon. If the best weapons stuff is far down the tree, we'll never get to it if we don't get started. So how many years do you intend to put off starting Weapons research? Two? Three? At what point can we actually get started on it?
 
Briefvoice said:
Of course by that same token we won't get there any time late if we don't get started soon. If the best weapons stuff is far down the tree, we'll never get to it if we don't get started. So how many years do you intend to put off starting Weapons research? Two? Three? At what point can we actually get started on it?
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Probably just this year, I expect us to get some more tech teams and there is a pretty good chance one of them can directly or indirectly replace the weapons team. Either that or generic teams are available next year. Generic teams would be pretty good for any projects that get a bonus anyway. At most I'd use the Weapons Fabrication Division for Starship frames again next year, after that they'd be assigned to ToC weapons until finished (or competently replaced).

So as far as my intentions go, probably just one year delay, at most two.
 
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Nix said:
Probably just this year, I expect us to get some more tech teams and there is a pretty good chance one of them can directly or indirectly replace the weapons team. Either that or generic teams are available next year. Generic teams would be pretty good for any projects that get a bonus anyway. At most I'd use the Weapons Fabrication Division for Starship frames again next year, after that they'd be assigned to ToC weapons until finished.

So as far as my intentions go, probably just one year delay, at most two.
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All right, that makes me feel more comfortable. I guess we can put off TOC weapons one more year and it won't make much difference. At least the team is active and getting xp.
 
Question for everyone. Is it worth starting a Constitution-B when the Renaissance prototype is two years from completion? I think "one year from completion" is pretty clearly no; might as well just delay a year and start a superior Renaissance design instead. Two years I'm a little iffier on; it's still getting a pretty decent light cruiser two years earlier than we could get a Renaissance. And what about 1.5 years, since we're timing this down to the quarter?

Asking for my ship-build planing spreadsheet, as I'm trying to figure out the total number of Connie-Bees we will actually end up building in total. Right now I am assuming the Renaissance prototype completes the end of 2314Q1, having been started beginning of 2309Q4.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Question for everyone. Is it worth starting a Constitution-B when the Renaissance prototype is two years from completion? I think "one year from completion" is pretty clearly no; might as well just delay a year and start a superior Renaissance design instead. Two years I'm a little iffier on; it's still getting a pretty decent light cruiser two years earlier than we could get a Renaissance. And what about 1.5 years, since we're timing this down to the quarter?

Asking for my ship-build planing spreadsheet, as I'm trying to figure out the total number of Connie-Bees we will actually end up building in total. Right now I am assuming the Renaissance prototype completes the end of 2314Q1, having been started beginning of 2309Q4.
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I'd say no, fill the berths with refits instead. Also saves crew for more Renaissances.
 
@Briefvoice, color me interested: could you give a probable range of how many Constitution-Bs we're likely to complete? Even something like "probably more than eight but less than twelve" would be interesting.

Briefvoice said:
Question for everyone. Is it worth starting a Constitution-B when the Renaissance prototype is two years from completion? I think "one year from completion" is pretty clearly no; might as well just delay a year and start a superior Renaissance design instead. Two years I'm a little iffier on; it's still getting a pretty decent light cruiser two years earlier than we could get a Renaissance. And what about 1.5 years, since we're timing this down to the quarter?

Asking for my ship-build planing spreadsheet, as I'm trying to figure out the total number of Connie-Bees we will actually end up building in total. Right now I am assuming the Renaissance prototype completes the end of 2314Q1, having been started beginning of 2309Q4.
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I'd say two years is a 'yes,' because at that point we're not really delaying a Rennie to build a ConnieBee. We need enough light cruisers that they can handle a lot of the jobs that are currently handled by escorts, not just by Constellations. So a situation where a berth builds a ConnieBee and the ship commissions in, say, 2315, followed by laying down the keel of their first Rennie, seems like a good idea to me, since it keeps cruisers in serial production in many berths.

By contrast, if we start a ConnieBee one year before the Renaissance prototype completes, we are delaying that same dock's ability to build a Rennie by two years, AND (assuming we actually get around to refits on the older ships) we're giving up two refit opportunities rather than one.

If it were up to me I'd say to draw the arbitrary cutoff point at 1.5 years- half the build time of either ship. So no laying down ConnieBees if it means that a berth will eventually have to settle for a half-finished Rennie rather than a finished Rennie, three years after the completion of the first Renaissance-class prototype.

If we had multiple berths opening up for Constitution-Bs exactly two years before the first Renaissance prototype becomes available, though, I'd advocate holding off on at least some of them (assuming refits are an option).
 
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Simon_Jester said:
I'd actually really like to vote for Plan Chaeronea, because @Chaeronea did a good job laying out a plan and justifying it. But I think ToC Weapons is actually important and want to start seriously researching weapons tech as soon as feasible, because arming our ships with obsolete weapons is... problematic. And the only other plan that includes ToC weapons is the one I'm already voting for: Void Stalker's plan.
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Actually, Simon, I did include ToC Weapons in my plan - it's the last item on the list.

Simon_Jester said:
I don't consider Klingon research important either, though we shouldn't neglect it entirely, because maintaining peace with Klingons requires understanding Klingons. When "the Wall came down in space" at Khitomer, the Federation didn't understand the Klingons very well, in my opinion.
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That's part of the reason why I included the Romulan research in my plan. Sure, part of it is to gain game mechanics benefits, but there's also a heck of a lot that the Federation doesn't know about the Romulans as a people and as a society - remember how shocked the crew of teh original Enterprise was in 'Balance of Terror' when they first saw what a Romulan really looks like?

Simon_Jester said:
Another is that I think we need to prioritize weapons research. We are already a bit behind the curve, I think, and we only just got our weapons team. We should use it; it will make it a lot easier for us to build competitive ships in the future. I mean, you're basically talking about designing an Ambassador that will be armed with 23rd century weapons, and I don't think that's a good idea.
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This. Frankly, I want to keep the weapons research team active every single turn, not just to catch up on our weapons knowledge but also to increase their skill level, which will lead to weapons research improving at an increasing rate. I want to get some serious weapons improvement going by the time the Ambassador goes into production.
 
Here is a version that goes with Nix's "do refits and save" crew. I have colored coded it for for your ease in reading and am assuming we do Miranda refits to see what that would look like. It also assumes that we probably find 10pp in loose change next year to get another 1mt berth at Tellar Prime. I use it to sneak in an extra Centaur-A and that last Centaur refit.



In this version we would do eight Constitution-Bs total. You can see that Excelsior production continues to be very heavy, and I don't hesitate to take a lot of Mirandas out of service at once to facilitate doing a mass refit on them.
 
Nix, I suppose my issue is this.

If all we do in regards to ship design is mechanically optimal decisions, then the only people who even have a meaningful voice in discussing research are the spreadsheet-eer group. Everyone else might as well just shut up and listen to the talking heads battle it out.

If Oneiros is made aware that there is a discrepancy between mechanically optimal strategies, and the things that one would expect from a narrative point of view,* this is hopefully likely to inspire him to rebalance the tech tree or at least rethink a few assumptions a bit. So I tend to somewhat discount arguments based entirely on "this is a mechanically optimal strategy for our present game mechanic."

I also fondly hope that opposition to custom designs will fade a bit as the game rolls on. The entire point to having all this research available to us is that we should either be able to build advanced ships earlier than in canon, or to build ships superior to those of the canon at a given date. For instance, in 2350 or so when we start turning out Galaxies, we know we've done well if we can turn out a Galaxy with a sturdy, reliable warp core, rather than a leaky, unstable, iffy one. Or if we start fielding quantum torpedoes before the Borg show up. Or if we're able to duplicate a positronic android like Data in 2375 (if the game runs that far), when in canon that was impossible except for Soong and, come to think of it, Data himself.
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*An example of such a discrepancy is when the players are incentivized to neglect weapons research the turn after the QM gives us the weapons research team we'd been agitating for.
 
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Chaeronea said:
Actually, Simon, I did include ToC Weapons in my plan - it's the last item on the list.
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Uh, yes. I know. The problem is that I want ToC Weapons to win. I'd actively prefer your plan, but it has only one vote and is unlikely to win (I feel your pain, I've been there, friend). The only other plan that has ToC Weapons is, well, the one I already voted for.

That's part of the reason why I included the Romulan research in my plan. Sure, part of it is to gain game mechanics benefits, but there's also a heck of a lot that the Federation doesn't know about the Romulans as a people and as a society - remember how shocked the crew of teh original Enterprise was in 'Balance of Terror' when they first saw what a Romulan really looks like?

This. Frankly, I want to keep the weapons research team active every single turn, not just to catch up on our weapons knowledge but also to increase their skill level, which will lead to weapons research improving at an increasing rate. I want to get some serious weapons improvement going by the time the Ambassador goes into production.
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I agree with the things you said, honestly.
 
Briefvoice said:
Question for everyone. Is it worth starting a Constitution-B when the Renaissance prototype is two years from completion? I think "one year from completion" is pretty clearly no; might as well just delay a year and start a superior Renaissance design instead. Two years I'm a little iffier on; it's still getting a pretty decent light cruiser two years earlier than we could get a Renaissance. And what about 1.5 years, since we're timing this down to the quarter?

Asking for my ship-build planing spreadsheet, as I'm trying to figure out the total number of Connie-Bees we will actually end up building in total. Right now I am assuming the Renaissance prototype completes the end of 2314Q1, having been started beginning of 2309Q4.
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I'd say no. Build a Centaur-A or conduct multiple refits instead.
 
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