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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Putting down my first plan in this thread.

[X] Plan Chaeronea
[ ] San Francisco Fleet Yards (8 pts): Ship Design (Explorers): Turn of the Century Explorer
Finishes topic so it applies weight reductions for ship components, opens up new topics in the Explorer tech tree,

[ ] 40A Eridani Shipyards: Warp Technology: 2310s Warp Cores
The option which makes warp cores of lighter and cheaper is worth a lot

[ ] Vulcan Science Academy (8 pts) Sensors: 2310s Short-Range Sensors
Working on improved targeting sensors for the Renaissance cruiser design

[ ] Starfleet Science Academy (6 pts): Comms: Early 24th​ Century Message Security
Because the more intel information we can deny the Cardassians and gather for ourselves the better.

[ ] Daystrom Institute (8 pts): Computing: 2310s Shipboard Computing
This reduces weight in a number of ship systems, plus if the overflow goes into 2310s Computing Installations it should almost finish Comm Encryption and penalise enemy SIGINT, which is good seeing as our relations with the Cardassians are going. If the +5 bonus lines up or carries over to Computing Installations then Comm Encryption will be completed this turn.

[ ] Tellar Prime Academy (6 pts): Mineral Technology: ToC Mineral Technology

[ ] Andorian Academy (6 pts): Shields – 2310s Deflector Shields
Improving shields for the Renaissance design.

[ ] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems (8 pts) : Warp Technology: 2310s: Warp Core Safety

[ ] Starfleet Tactical Command (4 pts): Analysis: Romulan Analysis
Because quiet Romulans are Romulans that are plotting. More importantly we need an assignment to get Tactical Command to improve its skill ranking.

[ ] Spock (10 pts): Xenopsychology: 2300s Xenopsychology
Spock's skill will be enough to complete this entire field this turn, which opens up the 2400s Xenopsychology tech trees, and they have some real shinies.

[ ] Starfleet Medical (6 pts): Medical: Early 24th​ Century Trauma Medicine
Will complete Portable First-Aid Kit this turn, which improves rolls for Distress Call missions. Also raises team skill to 4.

[ ] Utopia Planitia Design Group (10 pts): Renaissance Research Project
Start work on the cruiser design newly approved by the Council and increases team skill to 5

[ ] Kuznetsov's Tiger Team (6 pts): Foreign Analysis: Cardassian Research
The Cardassians are behind most of our recent headaches so getting a better handle on them is good. If their bonus gets applied to Intelligence Analysis I then we'll get that counter-intel bonus against them from the start of next turn.

[ ] Admiral Lathriss (6 pts): Fleet Design Doctrine: LR: Way of the Elephant
Our ships tend to be outnumbered in combat situations, and this option gives Fleet Combat and Shields bonuses in those situations.

[ ] Federation Broadcast Service (4 pts): Comms: 2310s Message Networking

[ ] Office of Naval Architecture (6 pts) Starship Construction: ToC Starship Frames
The starting point for the Starship Construction tech tree, which includes techniques to reduce ship construction times.

[ ] University of Betazed (6 pts): Personal Tech: Basic ToC Equipment
Focusing on reducing crew losses on Away Missions

[ ] Weapons Fabrication Division Test Office (4 pts): Weapons: ToC Weapons
The only starting point, and we need to skill this team up as much as we can as fast as we can.

EDIT: Swapped the Renaissance Research Project and Ship Design (Explorers) as outlined by Aledeth. Also amended pt totals to include bonus from Rinias ch'Vohlet.
 
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Chaeronea said:
Putting down my first plan in this thread.

[X] Plan Chaeronea
[ ] San Francisco Fleet Yards (3 pts): Renaissance Research Project
Start work on the cruiser design newly approved by the Council

[ ] 40A Eridani Shipyards: Warp Technology: 2310s Warp Cores
The option which makes warp cores of lighter and cheaper is worth a lot

[ ] Vulcan Science Academy (8 pts) Sensors: 2310s Short-Range Sensors
Working on improved targeting sensors for the Renaissance cruiser design

[ ] Starfleet Science Academy (6 pts): Comms: Early 24th​ Century Message Security
Because the more intel information we can deny the Cardassians and gather for ourselves the better.

[ ] Daystrom Institute (8 pts): Computing: 2310s Shipboard Computing
This reduces weight in a number of ship systems, plus if the overflow goes into 2310s Computing Installations it should almost finish Comm Encryption and penalise enemy SIGINT, which is good seeing as our relations with the Cardassians are going. If the +5 bonus lines up or carries over to Computing Installations then Comm Encryption will be completed this turn.

[ ] Tellar Prime Academy (6 pts): Mineral Technology: ToC Mineral Technology

[ ] Andorian Academy (6 pts): Shields – 2310s Deflector Shields
Improving shields for the Renaissance design.

[ ] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems (8 pts) : Warp Technology: 2310s: Warp Core Safety

[ ] Starfleet Tactical Command (4 pts): Analysis: Romulan Analysis
Because quiet Romulans are Romulans that are plotting. More importantly we need an assignment to get Tactical Command to improve its skill ranking.

[ ] Spock (10 pts): Xenopsychology: 2300s Xenopsychology
Spock's skill will be enough to complete this entire field this turn, which opens up the 2400s Xenopsychology tech trees, and they have some real shinies.

[ ] Starfleet Medical (6 pts): Medical: Early 24th​ Century Trauma Medicine
Will complete Portable First-Aid Kit this turn, which improves rolls for Distress Call missions. Also raises team skill to 4.

[ ] Utopia Planitia Design Group (8 pts): Ship Design (Explorers): Turn of the Century Explorer
Finishes topic so it applies weight reductions for ship components, opens up new topics in the Explorer tech tree, and increases team skill to 5

[ ] Kuznetsov's Tiger Team (6 pts): Foreign Analysis: Cardassian Research
The Cardassians are behind most of our recent headaches so getting a better handle on them is good. If their bonus gets applied to Intelligence Analysis I then we'll get that counter-intel bonus against them from the start of next turn.

[ ] Admiral Lathriss (6 pts): Fleet Design Doctrine: LR: Way of the Elephant
Our ships tend to be outnumbered in combat situations, and this option gives Fleet Combat and Shields bonuses in those situations.

[ ] Federation Broadcast Service (4 pts): Comms: 2310s Message Networking

[ ] Office of Naval Architecture (4 pts) Starship Construction: ToC Starship Frames
The starting point for the Starship Construction tech tree, which includes techniques to reduce ship construction times.

[ ] University of Betazed (6 pts): Personal Tech: Basic ToC Equipment
Focusing on reducing crew losses on Away Missions

[ ] Weapons Fabrication Division Test Office (4 pts): Weapons: ToC Weapons
The only starting point, and we need to skill this team up as much as we can as fast as we can.
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SF Fleet yards doesn't have a Light Cruiser specialization. If you want Explorer design and Renaissance work it's best to switch Utopia Planitia and SF Yards around.
 
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aledeth said:
SF Fleet yards doesn't have a Light Cruiser specialization. If you want Explorer design and Renaissance work it's best to switch Utopia Planitia and SF Yards around.
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So the Ship Design (Explorer) specialisation would be the one to double the Skill rank for the research team? So that means the UP team should generate 8 research points, am I right?
 
Chaeronea said:
So the Ship Design (Explorer) specialisation would be the one to double the Skill rank for the research team? So that means the UP team should generate 8 research points, am I right?
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Ship Design (Explorer) would double the research generated by either UP or FY Yards when working on ToC Explorers, yes. UP would make 8 + 2, SF Yards 6 + 2. Since all the techs we want are just 1 away from completion, it really doesn't matter who is working on it. (The extra +2 comes from from our Ship Design Vice Admiral, all Ship Design and Ship Construction research gets a bonus +2).

The Renaissance design project is classified as a Light Cruiser project though, and UP Yards are the only team we have with a Ship Design (Light Cruiser) specialization, so they'd generate 8+2 there, but SF Yards would only be 3+2.
 
tryrar said:
FFS we can just ignore canon introduction, since that matters precisely ZERO in this quest. We could wait 20 years and it won't matter

Edit: I seem to have went a little Elmer Fudd in my grammar there for some reason, fixed :p
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tryrar said:
It's actually only really AD who want's explorer NOW, we're more on a better Oberth at the moment
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Nix said:
Of course we aren't starting it 3 centuries ago, but so far no one has actually made a good argument why we shouldn't start it in 2310. With the warp core test sheet we can design a 100% reliable Ambassador with 280 br and 150 sr cost and only tier 4 design techs.

My plan is better for a later Ambassador design too, because it gives us a better chance of finishing T2 Explorer techs first, Starship contruction and weapons would probably be T1 by then in either case. It keeps either an early or a late Ambassador open as options.
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Nix said:
Answering in the general thread because this is very relevant to the current vote.


  • We had a bad need for the Ambassador ever since at least 2302, we know the Romulans already had their Ambassador equivalent in service then.
  • A replacement for the Excelsior class was already one of the options for our ambition in 2301, along with one for the Constellation, so it's likely considered outdated as well. If we don't start the ambassador project within a few years that might earn us council disapproval like they started voicing disapproval about still using the Constellation this year.
  • Most importantly, getting the Ambassador earlier means using it for 5YM earlier. We know events roll stat tests with 2d6. Across the range where both success and failure is possible increasing the tested stat by 1 means increasing the chance of success by an average of 37%. If you look at the increasing successes of our Explorers with their growing stats and the relatively hard time the Miracht with its less experienced crew has we can somewhat reasonably assume that more or less translates to 37% more rewards, maybe a bit less because auto successes could be a thing and this is using dodgy statistics (I'll take another stab at this later). Even 20% better rewards a year early would be absurdly valuable. Another way to look at it is that it's the equivalent of having Nash ka'Sharren as Captain for free, except even better and in addition to the normal Captain bonus.
  • A stock Excelsior has a 40% chance to win against a Lorgot-type Cardassian Battlecruiser, a stock Ambassador has a 85% chance to win.
Even just a single of these points would be enough to prove that we do need the Ambassador, together they mean we desperately need it, there isn't any single other thing we need so much as 10% as badly as the Ambassador, now that we have started the Renaissance project.
You mean you never? The majority of the time is spent on the prototype in any case.

This sounds like you expect the ratio in effect between a tech team year spent on a specific ship project and a general project to be low, maybe something like 2:1. I'd estimate it as well over 10:1, in some cases over 50:1. Given how relatively rare new classes are going for general techs as replacement for design techs (rather than in addition) makes little sense.
If those make the Ambassador non-viable we should just ask for the canonical Ambassador, like we did with the Renaissance.
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I'm about to fly to Boston, so this won't be a proper response.

Basically, I'm pushing for 2313 Ambassador and prep for it, not now.
 
Would people please explain what they like about Plan Renaissance and Counter Intel, as opposed to Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep?

Counter intel is completely identical, either with the exact same teams, or the tech finishing this year with inspiration or next year without in both plans. Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep has the additional advantages of more doctine research, in particular Way of the Arrow allowing our Explorers and cruisers to get to events (such as for Cardassian intrigue, potentially) much more reliably (from 77.85% to 90.2% for Excelsiors), and making us ready to start the Ambassador project some time between 2310 and 2312. I explained why getting the Ambassador reasonably soon is important here. And it doesn't sacrifice anything substantial for that.

The only things sacrificed are doing the non-counter intel Cardassian research potentially slightly slower due to a less skilled team (but inspiration means there is a good chance to finish those at the same time anyway, as would a +2 interaction bonus or the like), and delaying escort design and weapons research a bit. Those would only matter for the next design after the Ambassador, and should be ready for that anyway.
 
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[X] Base Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep

Hmm ok, I'll switch.
 
AlphaDelta said:
I'm about to fly to Boston, so this won't be a proper response.

Basically, I'm pushing for 2313 Ambassador and prep for it, not now.
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For a 2313 Ambassador we should also research ToC Explorer design now, so that we can finish Early 24th Century Explorer - Engineering in time. That's a vital project if the design rule changes included in the test sheet don't go through and we want a reliable hull. Explorer design techs are so expensive that they need a long run up, unlike Escort design techs.
 
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lbmaian said:
Any particular reason you're going for Warp Propulsion instead of Warp Safety (like Nix's plan)? [
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Because I don't view Reliability as a priority for the next gen ships compared to reducing Nacelle Weight, and I'm not making the same calculations about when we will start the next Explorer project.

Why are you going with Short-Range Sensors over Long-Range Sensors (like the other plans)?
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Because Long Range Sensors have one annoying category that is 9/100, so I would rather finish Short Ranger Sensors first. I also perhaps value anti-cloaking more. Never forget that the Romulans and Klingons are not really our friends. We may not be at war, but they're perfectly capable of trying to slip a cloaked vessel over the border to stir up trouble, especially if we seem distracted.
 
Thinking about it a bit longer I may have actually understated how little Tiger Team vs Games & Theory matters for Cardassian Research:
14 / 30 Tactical Analysis I (+1% Fed Combat Power v Cardassians)
14 / 30 Doctrinal Analysis I (-1% CardassiansCombat Power)
14 / 30 Attack Pattern Analysis I (+2% chance of dodging a hit)
19 / 30 Intelligence Analysis I (Improved counter intel)
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Including Admiral boni TT gives +9, G&T +7. During the last year the battle of Fujit (Enterprise vs Lorgot and Karnack) happened. Event boni are usually divisible by 5. We are very likely getting +5 to at least the first three techs, which means all of them will finish this year if they get inspiration, next year if not, with either team. The same is already true for Intelligence Analysis I. If we get +10 instead they will definitely finish this year, and the same for Intelligence Analysis I if it gets +5. So very likely the only difference between assigning the TT and G&T is the overrun, which won't be relevant for many years and is relatively unlikely to make a difference of a year then, either.
 
@OneirosTheWriter that ship spreadsheet is pretty amazing. Wow, there are less than 500 Starships in the entire Federation. Only a little over 100 "civilian" (which I presume means privately owned) ships, and this for a population that must be in the billions. I guess visiting other planets is something that the vast majority of people never do in their entire lives. No wonder Starfleet has such mystique. Also interesting to see how the non-military ships compete for berth space in the member yards.
 
Briefvoice said:
@OneirosTheWriter that ship spreadsheet is pretty amazing. Wow, there are less than 500 Starships in the entire Federation. Only a little over 100 "civilian" (which I presume means privately owned) ships, and this for a population that must be in the billions. I guess visiting other planets is something that the vast majority of people never do in their entire lives. No wonder Starfleet has such mystique. Also interesting to see how the non-military ships compete for berth space in the member yards.
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Fyi, those Short/Medium/Long term goals would be some of the the main things you'd be looking to set with a Member World office.
 
I do not support starting the Ambassador project anytime soon. Actually, I think we're better off with a custom design at a much later date. Given that, which research plan should I vote for?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I do not support starting the Ambassador project anytime soon. Actually, I think we're better off with a custom design at a much later date. Given that, which research plan should I vote for?
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Why do you think that would be advantageous? The QM is setting incentives specifically so as to discourage custom designs unless they fill existing holes. If we were going to be significantly better of with a custom explorer in the same role that would indicate a problem, and is reasonably likely to be "fixed". Not that it looks much like that would be the case, as of now canon designs are usually better than what we could do with a custom design, particularly crew requirement wise.

As for what to vote for, I believe my plan is strictly superior even if you aren't interested in the Ambassador in particular (as opposed to Explorers in general), it doesn't require us to start it soon, it just enables the possibility. So vote for it unless you want to actively sabotage the possibility of starting the Ambassador, not just being against it.
 
I think that building a Custom Explorer is worth it even if it has just the same stats as an Ambassador, except that it masses only 3 mt.

The cost for a Custom Explorer is just 5pp higher. We need to pay a lot more to create all the new berths we would need to build Amabssadors, while our 3 mt berths would probably lie fallow, at least until we can refit Excelsiors.
 
Gingganz said:
I think that building a Custom Explorer is worth it even if it has just the same stats as an Ambassador, except that it masses only 3 mt.

The cost for a Custom Explorer is just 5pp higher. We need to pay a lot more to create all the new berths we would need to build Amabssadors, while our 3 mt berths would probably lie fallow, at least until we can refit Excelsiors.
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Making the Ambassador fit a 3mt berth is within the possible wiggle room without making it a custom design, as is reducing the cost, just changing the stats isn't (nor drastically changing the section sizes, probably). The problem with a custom design is mostly that we couldn't use the listed crew requirements, a custom design would take 1 unit more of each crew type.
 
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