@Briefvoice: Thanks. It looks pretty good to me. I'd still rather have the ConnieBee and accept a one year delay in finishing Rennies, rather than build a Centaur or refit a pair of Mirandas in the same berth, though I'm not going to be massively disappointed either way.
 
This would be a more maximalist Constitution-B build, in which we built 11 of them. Probably have to retire at least one Constellation for crew, though.

 
Folks, I'll be off and on throughout the day - let me know if there are any errors, but I think this is an accurate comparison of three of the plans.
  Plan Base Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep Plan Renaissance and Counter Intel Lone Ranger All and Double Warp Technology
Technology Originator Nix Void Stalker BriefVoice
Computing T2: 2310s Computing Installations +8: Daystrom Institute +8: Daystrom Institute +8: Daystrom Institute
Computing T2: 2310s Shipboard Computing +6: Starfleet Science Academy +6: Starfleet Science Academy +6: Starfleet Science Academy
Warp Technology T2: 2310s Warp Cores +8: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems +8: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems +6: 40 Erdani A Shipyards
Warp Technology T2: 2310s Warp Core Safety +6: 40 Erdani A Shipyards    
Warp Technology T2: 2310s Warp Propulsion     +8: Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems
Starship Construction T1: ToC Starship Frames +6: Weapons Fabrication Division Test Office +8: San Francisco Fleet Yards +8: San Francisco Fleet Yards
Personal Tech T1: Basic ToC Equipment +6: University of Betazed Research School +6: University of Betazed Research School +6: University of Betazed Research School
Sensors T2: 2310s Short-Range Sensors     +9: Vulcan Science Academy
Sensors T2: 2310s Long-Range Sensors +9: Vulcan Science Academy +9: Vulcan Science Academy  
Weapons T1: ToC Weapons   +4: Weapons Fabrication Division Test Office +4: Weapons Fabrication Division Test Office
Shields T2: 2310s Deflector Shields +6: Andorian Academy +6: Andorian Academy +6: Andorian Academy
Shields T2: 2310s Navigational Deflectors      
Communications T2: 2310s Message Networking      
Communications T2: 2310s Communications      
Communications T2: 2310s Message Security +4: Federation Broadcast Service Innovations Department +4: Federation Broadcast Service Innovations Department +4: Federation Broadcast Service Innovations Department
Mineral Technology ToC Mineral Technology +6: Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science +6: Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science +6: Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science
Xenopsychology 2300s Xenopsychology +10: Spock +10: Spock +10: Spock
Medical Early 24th Century Trauma Medicine +6: Starfleet Medical Command +6: Starfleet Medical Command +6: Starfleet Medical Command
Medical Early 24th Century Intensive Care      
Ship Design, Escort Early 24th Century Escort, Combat      
Ship Design, Escort Early 24th Century Escort, Science   +8: 40 Erdani A Shipyards  
Ship Design, Escort Early 24th Century Escort, Engineering      
Ship Design, Escort 1 mt Escort Design      
Ship Design, Cruiser Early 24th Century Cruiser, Combat      
Ship Design, Cruiser Early 24th Century Cruiser, Science      
Ship Design, Cruiser Early 24th Century Cruiser, Engineering      
Ship Design, Cruiser 2.1 mt Cruiser Design      
Ship Design, Explorer Turn of the Century Explorer +8: San Francisco Fleet Yards    
Starbase Design Early 24th Century Starbase Design      
Doctrine, Fleet Design LR - Way of the Anchor +7: Office of Naval Architecture   +9: Admiral Lathriss
Doctrine, Fleet Design LR - Way of the Elephant +9: Lt-Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team +7: Office of Naval Architecture +9: Lt-Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team
Doctrine, Fleet Design LR - Way of the Giant +9: Admiral Lathriss +9: Admiral Lathriss +7: Office of Naval Architecture
Doctrine, Defensive Fleet in Being      
Doctrine, Defensive Forward Defence      
Doctrine, Offensive Wolk Pack Doctrine      
Doctrine, Offensive Base Strike Doctrine      
Doctrine, Offensive Decisive Battle Doctrine      
Foreign Analysis Romulan      
Foreign Analysis Klingon   +7: Starfleet Tactical Command - Games & Theory Division  
Foreign Analysis Cardassian +7: Starfleet Tactical Command - Games & Theory Division +9: Lt-Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team +7: Starfleet Tactical Command - Games & Theory Division
Ship Design, Cruiser Renaissance Research +10: Utopia Planitia Design Group +10: Utopia Planitia Design Group +10: Utopia Planitia Design Group

Edit: Updated numbers based on calculations, including the following modifers:
Position Who Bonus Area
Starfleet Data Modelling, Ship Design Bureau Victoria Eaton 1 Sensors
Chief of Starfleet Operations Heidi Eriksson 3 Doctrine, Offensive
Chief of Starfleet Operations Heidi Eriksson 3 Doctrine, Defensive
Chief of Starfleet Operations Heidi Eriksson 3 Doctrine, Fleet Design
Chief of Starfleet Operations Heidi Eriksson 3 Foreign Analysis
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau Rinias ch'Vohlet 2 Ship Design, Escort
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau Rinias ch'Vohlet 2 Ship Design, Cruiser
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau Rinias ch'Vohlet 2 Ship Design, Explorer
Starfleet Ship Design Bureau Rinias ch'Vohlet 2 Starship Construction
 
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Question for everyone. Is it worth starting a Constitution-B when the Renaissance prototype is two years from completion? I think "one year from completion" is pretty clearly no; might as well just delay a year and start a superior Renaissance design instead. Two years I'm a little iffier on; it's still getting a pretty decent light cruiser two years earlier than we could get a Renaissance. And what about 1.5 years, since we're timing this down to the quarter?

Asking for my ship-build planing spreadsheet, as I'm trying to figure out the total number of Connie-Bees we will actually end up building in total. Right now I am assuming the Renaissance prototype completes the end of 2314Q1, having been started beginning of 2309Q4.

I think 8 Connie Bs is enough and we do desperately need to refit our older ships (since we can't replace them fast enough.

@OneirosTheWriter: I'm finding it hard to find all the information needed to participate in this quest in a meaningful way. Once you've finished with the tech tree, could you add in more links to the spreadsheets and update the information in the early posts of the thread (adding Amarki ship stats and adding the stats of the refit ships to the big ship design post for example)? It would be very much appreciated!

fasquardon
 
If all we do in regards to ship design is mechanically optimal decisions, then the only people who even have a meaningful voice in discussing research are the spreadsheet-eer group. Everyone else might as well just shut up and listen to the talking heads battle it out.
Much as I hate to say it, as someone who hasn't got around to reading through the SDB thread, as it currently stands this is exactly what should happen. The research system almost entirely gives mechanical bonuses to ship design* so unless you understand the ship design numbers and all the details in ship design you really shouldn't be discussing the matter, well outside of general topics like if we should focus on Escorts or Explorers right now.

*By design BTW:
As a result, research options are going to be mostly along the lines of researching ways to use high stat numbers in smaller ships with less crippling power requirements, researching new hull types, nacelle types, etc etc etc.



If Oneiros is made aware that there is a discrepancy between mechanically optimal strategies, and the things that one would expect from a narrative point of view,* this is hopefully likely to inspire him to rebalance the tech tree or at least rethink a few assumptions a bit. So I tend to somewhat discount arguments based entirely on "this is a mechanically optimal strategy for our present game mechanic."
While I certainly understand your frustration I must point out that using the logic "The GM may change the system to favor my vote" is problematic at best. There isn't really any possible rebuttal or discussion response to that other then "I disagree".

I also fondly hope that opposition to custom designs will fade a bit as the game rolls on.
Well going by @OneirosTheWriter 's comment here:
I'd prefer to keep the number of custom ships limited so that we don't go really overboard on them.

Have you thought about researching various technologies to give benefits beyond stat increases to ships?
Yeah, it won't be just ships, will be other things like being able to boost the rate at which other factions respond to Fed diplomacy, or gaining saving re-rolls in some circumstances.

Edit: Also, there are stiff penalties on things like prototype ships, so you don't want to be just spamming ship designs in any event. Personally I think the canon ship classes will cover needs, but I'm open to people investing in classes to cover specific needs.
it sounds like system is designed such that custom classes are only intended for areas where there are odd gaps (Oberth -> Intrepid) odd niches that need filling.

*An example of such a discrepancy is when the players are incentivized to neglect weapons research the turn after the QM gives us the weapons research team we'd been agitating for.
I feel the need to point out it's not just a weapons research team. They are just as good in Starship Construction which is where @Nix 's plan puts them.
 
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Nix, I suppose my issue is this.

If all we do in regards to ship design is mechanically optimal decisions, then the only people who even have a meaningful voice in discussing research are the spreadsheet-eer group. Everyone else might as well just shut up and listen to the talking heads battle it out.

If Oneiros is made aware that there is a discrepancy between mechanically optimal strategies, and the things that one would expect from a narrative point of view,* this is hopefully likely to inspire him to rebalance the tech tree or at least rethink a few assumptions a bit. So I tend to somewhat discount arguments based entirely on "this is a mechanically optimal strategy for our present game mechanic."
I think you misunderstood why it's the weapon tech that gets delayed? It's not because weapon tech is particularly weak and needs to be buffed, it's because the team happens to have a second specialization that also got neglected for a long time and happens to be a bit more urgent right now.
I also fondly hope that opposition to custom designs will fade a bit as the game rolls on. The entire point to having all this research available to us is that we should either be able to build advanced ships earlier than in canon, or to build ships superior to those of the canon at a given date.
Why is that better than using custom ships in gaps between canon ships (e. g. in time, or in size) and for roles that did not exist in canon?
For instance, in 2350 or so when we start turning out Galaxies, we know we've done well if we can turn out a Galaxy with a sturdy, reliable warp core, rather than a leaky, unstable, iffy one.
That's almost certain to happen, since reliability is one of the things that can be changed without making it a custom design and most designers here being arguably irrationally attracted to very high reliability.
Or if we start fielding quantum torpedoes before the Borg show up. [Or if we're able to duplicate a positronic android like Data in 2375 (if the game runs that far), when in canon that was impossible except for Soong and, come to think of it, Data himself.
Neither of these has anything to do with custom ship designs and both are things the tech tree makes possible and we are likely to pursue.
*An example of such a discrepancy is when the players are incentivized to neglect weapons research the turn after the QM gives us the weapons research team we'd been agitating for.
I think it fits reasonably well narratively, actually. The Weapons Fabrication Division is formed out of individual people who used to be involved with manufacturing weapons and such. The IC argument for making such a team was that it's valuable to have someone specific to talk to when there are issues involving weapons somewhere, because just ignoring it was leaving "holes" in our designs (see Briefvoice's omake The Gap this team was in part a reward for). Spending some time fixing existing problems in our general approach caused by that before going off and trying to design new an better weapons makes a lot of sense.
 
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@OneirosTheWriter are we ever going to establish diplomatic relations with the Bolians? I ask because one of them showed up in an early Captain's Log, but we haven't seen any since. Did we all just forget about them?
 
Why is that better than using custom ships in gaps between canon ships (e. g. in time, or in size) and for roles that did not exist in canon?
I believe his point may be that, if we're not meant to make custom designs, it kinda makes a lot of the ship design technologies rather pointless, since they're not intended to be used.
 
That's almost certain to happen, since reliability is one of the things that can be changed without making it a custom design and most designers here being arguably irrationally attracted to very high reliability.

Really?

There was a reason we were asked to stop this discussion before. In general, I've seen people here being good at justifying divergent opinions, which is why I'm reading comments and voting, and not just story.
 
Captain's Log - 2308.Q3
Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 22997.4 - Captain Nash ka'Sharren

We are taking on a mission to probe the edges of Dawiar space to help us gain a clearer view of the situation. At the moment, we are transiting between systems on the 'ventral' side of Dawiar space, below the galactic plane, where the earlier missions have not travelled. So far we have gone unchallenged. A Cardassian Science Ship appeared to have a sensor reading of us at one stage, but the Dawiar have appeared to be unable to respond. No doubt they are all tied down on their border with Caitian space.


-

Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 22998.5 - Captain Maryam Ajam

A special mission from the Federation Diplomatic Service has been passed to us. Relations between the Federation and the Apiata have apparently stalled, largely over the issue of Apiata's genetically in-built caste system, which is both against the Federation charter, and yet seemingly completely unavoidable. Some give has developed for this position in the Council after the experience of the Miracht and Sarek aiding the stricken Colony Ship Lorrisa.


So we are to escort and assist a delegation to Apinae. I was personally a little curious as to why the Enterprise was not drawn for this assignment, and received the rather ambiguous, "Because reasons." My suspicions are that they wish to present a face not considered to be aligned to Queen Izzidiera of the Irrizizza colony.

-

Personal Log, Captain Maryam Ajam, Stardate 22998.5

I've been in touch with Lieutenant-Commander Leaniss on the Enterprise, what a font of tales and stories of Izzidiera's time she has proven to be!

-

Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 22998.8 - Captain Straak

While conducting a geological survey of an Class O pelagic world in the 04 Tailor system, we were confronted by a cruiser executing a microjump from the gas giant fourth planet. It appears that they were under the impression that they had caught us unawares. However, we became aware of their presence shortly after they first moved into a higher orbit, before their active sensor waves reached us. They instructed us to leave this space, and then proceeded to warp out of the system themselves, heading rimward and well below the galactic plane.

We have begun tracking them as they head through a circuitous route.

-

Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 22999.5 - Captain Michel Thuir

We have been joined by a sizeable research team from the Vulcan Science Academy, and the Gaeni Tech-Cruiser Hadd-Mal. The Tech-Cruiser, operated by the Haddas Amal Research Institute of the Gaeni, is a sleek machine, engineered to within an inch of its life. The Vulcan crews look on at it with what to most kinds would be mild-alarm, but in a Vulcan may as well be wall-eyed terror. It is a most "irrational" design, apparently.

I'm heading aboard for a tour shortly.


-

Captain's Log, USS Enterprise, Stardate 22999.8

We have identified a very rich seam of duranium near the Dawiar border, in a system designated Fenris, in a Class D planet. I'm not sure that it will be a viable spot politically, however. We have quickly moved away from the system, in fact, to avoid drawing too much attention to it, as it is near enough to the Dawiar that if they were tracking us, they would find it quickly.

[Gain +30br, get +20br/year colony option at Fenris IV]

-

Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 23000.3

The look on the face of the Lecarre captain when we arrived in their home system shortly after their reversion from subspace was, as my human officers describe, "priceless". It made a satisfactory exchange for abandoning the geological surveys to further investigation this new space-faring power. The home planet is Oculus V by our stellar survey, or Gervanis to the indigent lifeforms.

After meeting with the local leadership, I have discovered that the Lecarre are already aware of the Cardassians. Indeed, the Cardassians have apparently been conveying many details about the wider state of the Alpha Quadrant and the Federation already. Some of these stories are even true. Unfortunately, the Lecarre are a species of natural paranoiacs, which is hampering attempts at counting these lies.

-

Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 23001.4

The leader of the High Council of Queens of Apinae is Ubrizzi, who lives at the pinnacle of the Grand Comb in an ... how to put this ... an eclectic mix of the most astounding luxury, and yet a spartan, well-drilled lifestyle. Workers and drones wait on her every desire, but she seldom calls them. She's the only Apiata we've met who meditates, though apparently this is not uncommon among Queens. I think I've found it fascinating, and so have the diplomats, seeing up close who Apiata society works. We can see the flaws, the competition of colonies, even on the same world, even with the single planetary government. We see the way "defective" workers are treated.

I had to step in and intervene with one. I no doubt broke a number of directives, but it may just have saved the day. I offered to take the "defective" worker, an Apiata who had a weak link to her Queen, and little interest in more, onto my crew. It seems that dealing with these workers is one of those things that Apiata Queens have long regarded as one of the unfortunate necessities of life, but by giving them a new way, by sending these independent workers to space where they can work more efficiently, we may have found the breakthrough needed to continue growth between these two powers.

-

Bridge Transcript, USS Miracht, Stardate 23001.9

[Lt Roland] Captain, I'm picking up some strange readings coming from the Gaeni ship...

[Capt Thuir] What sort of readings, Lieutenant?"

[Lt Roland] There seems to be an anomaly beginning in the re-forced pre-heating assembly they use with their warp-

[Lt T'Fariss] Captain! Urgent distress call from the Hadd-Mal, they are experiencing a warp core breach and request evacuation of non-essential personnel.

[Capt Thuir] Lieutenant Commander frinc Cheg, do so. All transporter rooms to evacuate non-engineering, command personnel. Helm, move us to maximum platform-to-platform transport range.

[Ens Ruk] Aye, Captain, maximum transport range.

[Capt Thuir] Do we know what caused it?

[Lt Roland] I've got nothing, Captain.

[Lt T'Fariss] The Hadd-Mal has no cause yet, Captain.

[Capt Thuir] Were they attempting an experiment? Was there sabotage?

[Lt-Cdr ch'Ufrashron] For the love of little atoms, Captain, she was just standing there! I can't comprehend it!

[Capt Thuir] Just the woman I wanted to see, Lieutenant-Commander, grab your tools, we're beaming over to the Hadd-Mal.

[Lt-Cdr ch'Ufrashron] We're what?!

-

Captain's Log, USS Cheron, Stardate 23002.1 - Captain T'Mina

We've confronted a Dawiar Shakakoun raider that had just destroyed a Caitian ship within claimed Federation space. After they were informed that they were in violation of Federation space, they turned to move away. After verifying that the survivors of the Caitian Freighter had already been picked up by the Shakakoun, we proceeded to chase the Dawiar ship to ensure it mean to leave. When it attempted to turn back into Federation space, we closed with it and fired upon it. After knocking down their shields, we were able to negotiate a release to us of the survivors of the freighter in exchange for letting the ship go again.

This time it did not return to Federation space.

[Gain +15pp]

-

Captain's Log, USS Courageous, Stardate 23002.2

We have successfully negotiated terms under which Federation and Apiata relations can continue to develop. This isn't be any means a comprehensive solution, but it is one that lets our peoples continue to grow together.

[Gain +25 Relations with Apiata, the Apiata will begin to integrate]

-

Chief Engineer's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 23002.3

Oh for the love of little atoms, this is madness! You beam off ships undergoing imminent warp core breaches, you don't beam on them.

No I won't stop dictating my log, I can talk and work, which I see is something beyond you, going by those idle tools.

These Gaeni warp cores are the purest mad deviltry. I always thought that Earth takes on warp technology were mad, but this, this is just absurd!

I don't bloody well care if you can hear me, or if that is disrespectful, Chief Engineer, one of our ships is on the verge of a nigh-random warp core breach, and the other isn't.

-

Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 23002.4

We have withdrawn with due haste from the Lecarre homewold after uncovering that part of their offer to invite us to their planet was a ruse to allow a plot to replace one of my crew with an elaborate body-double agent. Although the Lecarre are quite distinctive with their red colouration, lack of hair and twin radiating cranial fan structures, they are apparently able to conduct astounding feats of cosmetic surgery.

Using long-range comms we have established a base-line for relations, but we are avoiding allowing them too much access for the time being.

[New race met: the Lecarre, starting relations -20/100 - suspected Cardassian client state]

-

Captain's Log, USS Miracht, Stardate 23002.8

The Haddas-Mal has been saved and we can continue on our way.

During my tour of the ship, I noticed what I though was an awry component around the warp core, and mentioned it to their Chief Engineer. Though it was waved off as unimportant at the time, when an otherwise unexplainable warp core issue arose, I strongly suspected it would be to do with that pre-burning assembly. It turned out to be a relatively easy resolution, but a very tense situation.

My own Chief Engineer is refusing to speak with me, but that's not the first time. Athesh will come around.

[Gain +10 rp, +25 Relations with the Gaeni]

-
 
@OneirosTheWriter are we ever going to establish diplomatic relations with the Bolians? I ask because one of them showed up in an early Captain's Log, but we haven't seen any since. Did we all just forget about them?
There was one Bolian cultist who showed up. We never encountered a group of Bolians.
I believe his point may be that, if we're not meant to make custom designs, it kinda makes a lot of the ship design technologies rather pointless, since they're not intended to be used.
We are intended to make some custom designs, just not as straight up replacement for canon ships or as prototype spam. And the techs also help making canon ships earlier/more reliable/cheaper.
 
Captain's Log, USS Sarek, Stardate 23002.4

We have withdrawn with due haste from the Lecarre homewold after uncovering that part of their offer to invite us to their planet was a ruse to allow a plot to replace one of my crew with an elaborate body-double agent. Although the Lecarre are quite distinctive with their red colouration, lack of hair and twin radiating cranial fan structures, they are apparently able to conduct astounding feats of cosmetic surgery.

Using long-range comms we have established a base-line for relations, but we are avoiding allowing them too much access for the time being.

[New race met: the Lecarre, starting relations -20/100 - suspected Cardassian client state]
Nice try Lecarre, but Captain Rocks is too good to fall for that! :D
 
Hmm, I wonder why...
I know I should have gone one of his real names rather than the pen name :V

@OneirosTheWriter are we ever going to establish diplomatic relations with the Bolians? I ask because one of them showed up in an early Captain's Log, but we haven't seen any since. Did we all just forget about them?
Yes, once the exploration starts to continue coreward. If the Miracht hits a First Contact, it'll probably happen.

@OneirosTheWriter: I'm finding it hard to find all the information needed to participate in this quest in a meaningful way. Once you've finished with the tech tree, could you add in more links to the spreadsheets and update the information in the early posts of the thread (adding Amarki ship stats and adding the stats of the refit ships to the big ship design post for example)? It would be very much appreciated!
I'm leery of posting links publicly to my hosted spreadsheets, but people are welcome to PM me for access. Trying to improve accessibility of information is something on my agenda, but the tech tree expansion has taken up a lot of effort.
 
Really?

There was a reason we were asked to stop this discussion before. In general, I've seen people here being good at justifying divergent opinions, which is why I'm reading comments and voting, and not just story.
I was paraphrasing what the QM had just said a few pages earlier. I appreciate the general tone of debate in this thread far to much to make mean spirited jabs at anyone, or to try to read hostility into statements where there is none.
 
[X] Plan Lone Ranger, Counter Intel and Ambassador Prep

Plan I voted for is dead,this is the next closest thing. Might be enough consensus for the science update to happen, I really want to see how the 2nd tier of renaissance techs look.
 
The leader of the High Council of Queens of Apinae is Ubrizzi, who lives at the pinnacle of the Grand Comb in an ... how to put this ... an eclectic mix of the most astounding luxury, and yet a spartan, well-drilled lifestyle. Workers and drones wait on her every desire, but she seldom calls them. She's the only Apiata we've met who meditates, though apparently this is not uncommon among Queens. I think I've found it fascinating, and so have the diplomats, seeing up close who Apiata society works. We can see the flaws, the competition of colonies, even on the same world, even with the single planetary government. We see the way "defective" workers are treated.

I had to step in and intervene with one. I no doubt broke a number of directives, but it may just have saved the day. I offered to take the "defective" worker, an Apiata who had a weak link to her Queen, and little interest in more, onto my crew. It seems that dealing with these workers is one of those things that Apiata Queens have long regarded as one of the unfortunate necessities of life, but by giving them a new way, by sending these independent workers to space where they can work more efficiently, we may have found the breakthrough needed to continue growth between these two powers.

I'm glad we're able to offer them a place and help, it was very concerning how they'd be treated in that society, but so long as they're able to make an informed decision I don't think there's much of a problem.
 
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