I don't think many people make the vote Expansionist -> supports Starfleet connection who aren't in Starfleet, though. It's not obvious from the perspective of an ordinary citizen.
True, but the Pacifists are kind of a wild card anyway in terms of who they'll support on Starfleet-related issues, as we observe in the recent votes. They're not a reliable part of a coalition Development can build a government around, I suspect.
I've been thinking... The presence of the Drone Ships actually explains why no Romulan corpses were recovered from starship wreckage during the Federation-Romulan War.
They probably fought the war exclusively via Drone Ships using the telepathic Remans as pilots.
That's plausible, although I suspect the war must have overrun at least SOME Romulan bases or something at some point.
I'd go with a mix of your explanation (which is really good) plus the boring explanation.
Good enough self-destruct systems would stop the Federation from getting remains in sufficiently intact condition to learn anything meaningful about Romulan physiology beyond maybe the "they have copper-based blood." And that's not a good clue to the Romulans' nature, any more than "they have iron-based blood" means that a Star Trek species is secretly humans rather than being one of the zillions of other near-human species out there.
I mean heck, the Romulans aren't even the only species who managed to pull off the "nobody knows what they look like under their armor" schtick. There's also the Breen.
SOURCE: Starfleet Intelligence / V'shar Joint Task Force EMPIRE GAMES
Description
Status Report for non-Federation activity on Solitude
Capsule Summary
In the on-going war between the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire, actors from both sides see the utility in a neutral location where informal contacts and exchanges may take place without being interfered with or formally condoned by either Empire. The only logical placement for such a location is in the territory of the United Federation of Planets, as neither Empire is willing to take any action that might breach the neutrality of the Federation. Specifically this location has proved to be the Vulcan colony world of Solitude, which occupies a unique position approximately equidistant from the borders of the two empires. This document contains a status report on observations made by task force EMPIRE GAMES regarding Klingon and Romulan activity on Solitude.
Solitude Background
Solitude is an M-class planet colonized by Vulcan approximately 136 earth years ago. 86% of its surface is covered by ocean, with settlements focused on an island continent and accompanying archipelago in the northern hemisphere. All interstellar traffic passes through the planet's largest city and capital, Kinkur Tvai (roughly translates as 'Golden Mean').
Solitude was founded and remains dominated by(1) a schismatic cultural sect among Vulcans. A full explanation of this sect would require its own report, but in brief this movement known as 'New Wave' or 'New Thought' believes that contemporary Vulcan life remains too tied to cultural practices and inheritances that were formed millennia ago. Though they retain Surakian values regarding the primacy of logic, they otherwise seek a break with past cultural legacies regarding architecture, modes of dress, diet, literature, etc., etc.(2) Solitude was the most recent Vulcan colony to achieve the status of a 'major world' and is represented on the Federation Council by Councillor T'Prinit.
Due to events during the Biophage crisis, Solitude is protected by a reinforced Starfleet Outpost making it the hardest target in the Romulan Border Zone short of the starbase at Beta Indi. Additionally, Solitude possesses a shipyard with a single 500kt berth and is capable of offering minor repairs and resupply to interstellar vessels.
(1) There are of course no formal restrictions on immigration.
(2) While all of this is no doubt very important to them, from the perspective of other species they seem to act pretty much like any other Vulcans.
Non-Federation Interstellar Trade
The name 'Solitude' refers to the original colonial charter's statement of intent to stand apart from Vulcan and its traditions, not a desire to drop out of the interstellar community. Over the past three decades, a gradual thawing of relations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire have led to Solitude becoming a nexus point for a limited amount of trade with the Klingon Empire(1). (Though administratively Solitude is within the Romulan Border Zone, this of course means nothing to the Klingons themselves.) There are currently 47 permanent Klingon residents on the planet.
The Romulan Star Empire remains isolationist in policy. More, the Romulans have would appear to have no direct path to Solitude without either creating a treaty violation by passing through the Neutral Zone or skirting the edge of Klingon space. However in the past decade, Solitude has been visited by a number of Romulan traders whose vessels are flying under the flag (ie nominal jurisdiction) of the Sotaw. As non-signatories to the treaty establishing the Neutral Zone(2), the Sotaw have every right to pass through it freely. Since their discovery during the biophage crisis, the Sotaw have reached an arrangement with certain civilian trading vessels originating in both the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire allowing them to pass through the Neutral Zone under Sotaw registry.(3)
Solitude has also been visited by actual Sotaw vessels, though infrequently. From comments made, it appears that the Sotaw fleet of warp-capable vessels is very busy attempting to assimilate former Kadeshi possessions in the Neutral Zone and can rarely be spared for speculative trading missions.(4)
(1) As has Shrantet III, though to a lesser extent. No Klingons traders have been reported at Thiak V, likely due to a reluctance to negotiate passage through Caldonian space.
(2) Indeed, their home world is in the Neutral Zone.
(3) The Romulan Empire's government has been typically silent about this, but must have made a decision to tolerate this arrangement. Romulan internal politics remain largely opaque.
(4) See Sotaw specific reports for further data, but in short the Sotaw seem to have rethought their earlier view of the Neutral Zone, now seeing it as a vast stretch of space in which they can establish sole dominion and claim every resource without worry about competing with the two regional super-powers to either side.
Task Force EMPIRE GAMES
EMPIRE GAMES is a joint task force made up of agents from Starfleet Intelligence and the Vulcan intelligence service V'Shar. While the V'Shar typically eschew field work, Solitude is a major Vulcan colony world and can scarcely be considered the field. Primary agents are Lt. Commander Wanda Glowinski of Starfleet intelligence and Officer T'Peel of the Vshar.
EMPIRE GAMES Status: (As of Stardate 26124.2)
Officer T'Peel - The primary goal of EMPIRE GAMES is to monitor contacts by Klingon and Romulan agents on Solitude. The following statistics may prove illuminating.
In the 5 years previous to the start of the Klingon-Romulan War, Solitude experienced the following traffic:
37 visits by Klingon civilian ships(1)
1 visit by a Klingon Research Cruiser
4 visits by Klingon Bird-of-Prey (old model)
5219 individual instances of Klingons cleared to visit the surface
9 visits by Romulan civilian ships flying under Sotaw registry
421 instances of Romulans cleared to visit the surface
Since the start of the Klingon-Romulan War two years ago, Solitude has experienced the following traffic:
17 visits by Klingon civilian ships
1 visits by Klingon Bird-of-Prey (old model)
934 individual instances of Klingons cleared to visit the surface
8 visits by Romulan civilian ships flying under Sotaw registry
434 instances of Romulans cleared to visit the surface
This represents a significant increase in traffic originating from the Klingon and Romulan Empires. This may partially be explained by basic economics, as wartime footing has significantly decreased resource availability for luxury goods in both polities, making Federation-produced items correspondingly more valuable. Partially. However as my attached analysis of encrypted transmissions shows, information exchange appears to be as much a priority as economic.
(1) Note that in many cases the same ship made repeat visits.
Lt. Commander Wanda Glowinski – So let me give you the rundown.
Cheshi, Daughter of Negadh is almost certainly the local head agent of Klingon Imperial Intelligence, unless she's fronting for someone else. She finagled a Permanent Resident status on Solitude, runs the Forever Alone Teahouse and Tavern. Believe it or not, she only added the "and Tavern" part when she got it from a local. Naming conventions around here! Anyway, it services Klingon food and Klingon ale, and it's pretty much the central place to get a touch of home for Klingon visitors. Every Klingon ship that shows up, you can guarantee at least some of the crew will want to go Forever Alone.
We have enough evidence of espionage to get Cheshi kicked off the planet if we wanted, but what's the point of that? For once T'Peel and I agree on something. We keep her around so we can watch her. Of course, she knows we're watching her, and we know she knows we're watching her.
Officer T'Peel – See my attached observation logs of all Klingon visitor movement patterns as related to the Forever Alone Teahouse and Tavern.
Lt. Commander Wanda Glowinski – With the Romulans it's a littler trickier. I don't believe they have a permanent on site spymaster, but I do have some pretty good guesses regarding a "Lorree" that has consistently had passage on the Favors Owed, a civilian Romulan vessel that's made 5 trips back and forth to Solitude.
Officer T'Peel – Lt. Commander Glowinski and I are at a point of disagreement here. While the Romulan known as Lorree is assuredly more than a simple trader, my meta-analysis of her usage of Solitude systems for data transfer suggest priorities more criminal than espionage. I suspect that the Tal Shi'ar prime agent assigned to Solitude is one "Malleetha", a supposed cultural expert who has made 6 trips to Solitude and has recently petitioned for a long term visa.
Lt. Commander Wanda Glowinski – Whatever the status of Lorree, the documented meeting between her and Cheshi makes clear that<<ALERT>>
<<TIME HAS EXPIRED. PLEASE INPUT SECURITY CODE TO CONTINUE READING>>
A/N
Had a neat concept in mind, but couldn't really make it go anywhere beyond, "Here a neat thing where a lot of cross-Empire contact is taking place at Solitude." So I decided to just cut it there and have time expire in your security clearance.
I am of the opinion that these options have been withdrawn because we have already overcommited our auxiliaries and once we remove this bottleneck the outpost options will be available again.
You seem to be very concerned about having a lot of shipyards and industry up as close to the Cardassian border as possible. Why is that? Basically, what's the argument for having transit time as such a high ranking concern
The distance from each front to the nearest yard is of critical importance to sustaining our fleets in a war with a peer. In the Klingon/Romulan War (KRW) we can see large numbers of ships being engaged every year on each front so it would not be just 1 month towing a ship back to our Tailwards yards, It would be cumulative across the entire fleet multiple years worth of ship time being towed before we even eat the repair time. The ability to get those ships repaired and back in the field would allow us to sustain operations on our borders rather then staging closer to our core worlds. We also have the additional need for towing when we are likely to be tapped out trying to provide logistics (200%) for a war mobilisation.
I would still like to hear the basic argument for why it needs to be made into the start of our war material supply chain. Why is it so important to build up Amarkia?
The logistic posts we have seen show that by halving our supply line length (to Amarkia) we would drastically cut down on the starfleet logistic requirements across all four Spinward fronts, this means less convoys to protect, more war material available for allocation. Basically putting Amarkia on the trunk line would have exponential returns for us.
The key question is, hub for what? There's a big difference between making Amarkia a center of ship construction and making it a center of industrial output.
Hub for all logistics in the Spinward Arm, basically the end of trunk trade line. That said I think Amarkia should extend its shipbuilding capacity to take overflow repairs from the GBZ, Apinae, Indoria and Rethelia fronts.
* Request new Shipyard at Indoria, 18pp (12 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1x 3mt berth, 1x 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command - 60pp
* 3x Request development of Amarkia Auxiliary shipyard ??pp (12 turns, 3x 1mt berth) - Meets ongoing AUX builds as agreed in vote.
Basically we undertake to fulfill the commitment we made to the president in the AUX vote and by doing so we open up capacity to fortify the Spinward border.
* Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a [GBZ] Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. 20pp
* Request development of Indoria shipyard, 14pp (4 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Request development of Apinae shipyard, 14pp (4 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Create Heavy Industrial park Amarkia, 115pp - Assigned outpost/starbase parts.
* Request expansion of Outposts in Sector, 10pp x2 (Merfara II, Ollasa IV)
* Request expansion of Outposts in Sector, 10pp x2 (Alrizzine IV, Delzarr)
(once Seyek joins - 72pp)
* Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a [RimwardCBZ] Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. 20pp
* Request new Shipyard at Rethelia, 18pp (12 turns, 1mt berth)
* Request development of Rethelia shipyard, 14pp (4 turns, 1mt berth)
* Establish forward Outposts in the new Cardassian Border Zones, 4 turns, 20pp (Hacitorus, Grrizzi, Burrizz, Rethelia)
(once Risa joins - 15pp)
* Request new Starbase [Risa] 15pp for home sectors
* Request new Starbase [Collie] 15pp?? for GBZ
* Deploy war reserve stock in Apinae, Indooria, Rethelia (will possibly occur once we fill Aux gap)
* Request funding to start Amarkia Planitia Shipyards, 150pp (16 turns, gain new shipyard starting with 2x 3mt berths, 2x 1mt berths)
* Request development of Amarkia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1x 3mt, 1x 1mt berth)
I have no feelings objections to bumping some of the new berths to 2mt, as long as they first help us overcome the Aux gap.
I am of the opinion that these [outpost construction] options have been withdrawn because we have already overcommited our auxiliaries and once we remove this bottleneck the outpost options will be available again.
Do you have any evidence for this? Did Oneiros ever say anything to indicate this?
The logistic posts we have seen show that by halving our supply line length (to Amarkia) we would drastically cut down on the starfleet logistic requirements across all four Spinward fronts, this means less convoys to protect, more war material available for allocation. Basically putting Amarkia on the trunk line would have exponential returns for us.
Would you mind trying to calculate the benefits, and citing the information used to calculate them?
Hub for all logistics in the Spinward Arm, basically the end of trunk trade line. That said I think Amarkia should extend its shipbuilding capacity to take overflow repairs from the GBZ, Apinae, Indoria and Rethelia fronts.
For now, it frankly seems more realistic to encourage the creation of distributed repair infrastructure at multiple locations scattered across that side of our space.
* Request new Shipyard at Indoria, 18pp (12 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1x 3mt berth, 1x 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command - 60pp
* 3x Request development of Amarkia Auxiliary shipyard ??pp (12 turns, 3x 1mt berth) - Meets ongoing AUX builds as agreed in vote.
Basically we undertake to fulfill the commitment we made to the president in the AUX vote and by doing so we open up capacity to fortify the Spinward border.
Precisely what benefits do you foresee accruing from reorganization of Starfleet Engineering Command?
* Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a [GBZ] Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. 20pp
* Request development of Indoria shipyard, 14pp (4 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Request development of Apinae shipyard, 14pp (4 turns, 1mt berth) - Assigned short term to Aux gap.
* Create Heavy Industrial park Amarkia, 115pp - Assigned outpost/starbase parts.
* Request expansion of Outposts in Sector, 10pp x2 (Merfara II, Ollasa IV)
* Request expansion of Outposts in Sector, 10pp x2 (Alrizzine IV, Delzarr)
Where are you even getting these "outpost cost" things? It seems like you're just randomly making up outpost-related options from scratch here. It's been a very long time since we got 'build outpost' options.
Its the Vibe i'm getting from his posts. nothing definitive, (please let us know if I am offbase). Its not like starfleet has forgotten how to make them.
If many projects of a similar type are undertaken (most particularly, if the Engineering resources are stretched too thin) it may cause delays in implementation.
The latest logistics update was here. Amarkia is labeled a hub and destination, but the trunk loop isn't really broken down. I don't have the time right now to try to calculate how a trunk loop change would affect things. The last in depth analysis i saw was on page 2179.
For now, it frankly seems more realistic to encourage the creation of distributed repair infrastructure at multiple locations scattered across that side of our space.
Oneiros has already stated that we will be seeing the federation tactical report, that said I am expecting it to be similar to the sample below (GBZ, Apinae, Indoria, Rethelia).
We will be able to get on the front foot with upcoming construction projects and forward plan resources, rather then racing to plug gaps that have opened up. We will also get to read more about the development being undertaken by the Federation rather then being blindsided by domestic political actions. We will also gain more options on how we respond to development needs and forward base materials.
I'd say that having Starfleet Engineering reporting directly to you allows you to fold their shipbuilding into your overall Shipyard Ops, and mark what is available for different tasks. I'll need to put some extra thought into how to handle the mechanics of it, especially shipbuilding.
At the moment though, with four colonies under construction, plus at least one starbase away from a homeworld system, you have not just your four non-GBZ Engineering ships in operation, but you'd need another six engineering ships from various members to get these things done in time. I've abstracted/hand-waved this for peacetime and decided that with 400+pp on hand you had plenty of pull to get that done, but it does mean your other engineering ships are tied down.
Edit: You'd possibly also start to get options like building dedicated spacelift for Starfleet Engineering so that they come pre-loaded during crises, and also get a small ongoing pp/yr boost per ship for reducing the load on member states
Federation Council Options for 2310.Q2
* Establish forward Outposts in the new Cardassian Border Zone, 4 turns, 20pp (create Outpost Is at 4 locations)
Federation Council Options for 2306.Q2
* Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar)
Sample Status/Progress of Cardassian-Federation War
============
Gabriel Front
Key Objectives The Camden Sector - The Gateway to the Gabriel Border Zone, fortified with outposts
The Dorseta Sector - Heavily reinforced outposts protecting mining colonies. 67 Gabriel - The Starbase and minor colony world
Aranyak - The Starbase that controls the shipping lanes back to Karadoc
Karadoc - One of the major worlds, hub of Cardassian activity at the base of the nebula and major shipyards
Apinae Front
Major Objectives Apinae - A federation core world and fleet hub. large shipyards protected by a Starbase
Burizz III - A large colony world, contains undefended shipyards.
Grrizzi - An undefended minor colony world. Kamey Prime - A Cardassian mining colony, current launching point of Cardassian raids into the Apinae front.
Vedarot - A major Cardassian colony, protects the approach to the Cardassia and is reinforced with an outpost.
Indorian Front
Major Objectives Indoria - A federation core world. Protected by a Starbase
Lapycorias Starbase - The most Spinward asset in the federation. Bajor - Little is known of this Affiliate, it is currently being used as a staging point for Cardassian fleet actions in this front. Balogot - A major Cardassian colony, is reinforced with an outpost.
Trangot - A major Cardassian colony, protects the approach to the Cardassia and is reinforced with an outpost.
Seyek Front
Major Objectives Rethelia - A federation affiliate. large shipyards protected by a Starbase
Hacitorus - A large colony world, contains undefended shipyards. Gandei - Minor colony world Galundun - One of the major worlds, hub of Cardassian activity at the base of the nebula and major shipyards, protected by a starbase.
I think it's more likely that Indoria, Lapycorias, Rethelia, and Bajor are going to be on a single front, with a 'Flanking Space' or 'Frontier' front encompassing Noldon Torkad, Perkash, Hacitorus, and Hassonus. Possibly Galundun is part of both fronts, being right at the edge and the only major hub available to the Cardassians for the latter.
Important to note that on the Flanking Frontier, our holdings seem to be much more compact and much better defended than the Cardassians, possibly giving us a major opening to raid behind their lines if we can capture those outlying mines as forward bases.
I also think that the Apinae front is going to be influenced by the relative amount of open space with the borders, making Grizzi, Aelin, and Karney Prime into important waypoints and forward operating bases, which if captured should allow flanking attacks on the relatively underdefended Vintus, parts of Apiata space, respectively Vedarot and Trangot, to cut off important supply chains to the Gabriel and Bajor fronts.
Meanwhile, in Gabriel their supply chain is actually really well defended, with Starbases at every link. Still, capturing Aranyak or Karadoc might let us to siege out the now-cut-off outer parts. Only wildcard is the CP-Geckos, which is part of why I'm so curious about how content they are as vassals.
Its the Vibe i'm getting from his posts. nothing definitive, (please let us know if I am offbase). Its not like starfleet has forgotten how to make them.
All his posts on our engineering ship shortage are from the past year or two of game time; we haven't had a new 'outpost network' option in five years of game time or more, and we haven't had an 'extra outposts' in a sector that already had a network option EVER.
The latest logistics update was here. Amarkia is labeled a hub and destination, but the trunk loop isn't really broken down. I don't have the time right now to try to calculate how a trunk loop change would affect things. The last in depth analysis i saw was on page 2179.
If you're going to propose a major up-front expense, at some time you should be willing to analyze how much benefit it will provide...
We will be able to get on the front foot with upcoming construction projects and forward plan resources, rather then racing to plug gaps that have opened up.
Please be specific about why you expect Engineering Command, specifically, to give us this ability. Please actually quote Oneiros. I am at this point very unsure whether you're consulting the same version of how the game works as the rest of us, as opposed to just making stuff up.
We will also get to read more about the development being undertaken by the Federation rather then being blindsided by domestic political actions.
Please go into specifics about how this will happen as a consequence of what you propose.
Federation Council Options for 2310.Q2
* Establish forward Outposts in the new Cardassian Border Zone, 4 turns, 20pp (create Outpost Is at 4 locations)
Federation Council Options for 2306.Q2
* Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar)
None of this means we're automatically going to be able to build extra sets of outposts at the same base price- which is underlying your assumptions. Obviously that breaks down in the extreme limiting case; we certainly can't expect to be able to buy, say, forty outposts in one sector for a total of 200pp. More realistically, outposts get built in specific places for reasons, and once the first four are constructed it may well be harder to argue from military necessity that there should be more and more and more.
Well. Looking at the Logistics post, our cargo volume x route penalty is 217s 220b x 1.25 = 272s 275b for the Feeder, and 134s 171b x 2 = 268s 342b for the Industry loops.
Assuming that either it takes the same effort to reduce our route penalties on both routes by the same amount, or that easily reducing the Industrial route penalty isn't even possible, the easiest way to reduce our needed shipping is to reduce the Feeder Route Penalty.
Looking at the front page, many of our resource colonies are located in the west of the Federation (Lapycorias, Themis, Gamma Canidae, Aelin, everything near Gabriel), but our Industry hubs are almost exclusively in the east. Therefore, expanding our Industry west to meet our raw resource shipments earlier should do quite a bit to simplify the Feeder routes.
A possible problem is that doing so might undo any gains by increasing our Industry Loop penalties by more than we decrease our Feeder penalties. However, Amarkia is right next to our westmost existing industry hub, Tales Hanar, so that should be well possible, likewise for Alukk, near Ord Grind Duk.
Apinae might well be a different story, as far away from our industrial heartland as it is. Though it's kinda surprising that one of our largest and most industrious members doesn't actually have any Industry Hubs in it's territory.
Other good candidates might be Ferasa and Betazed, which sit right in the middle of major mining colony clusters, and Ferasa is even relatively near the existing Industry Hub of Ord Grind Duk, same as Alukk. Edit: An alternative to Betazed might be New Seoul, which is closer to Atatan.
Oh, and @TyrialFrost, we don't actually have to worry about the Trunk loop any, that's exclusively civilian trade. Sole thing we're missing is the Supply loop penalty.
They could be pushing for super freighters to handle say the industrial and trunk loops.
Todamak has a berth that can pump those out at one every four years:
And, as a side note, a super freighter has twice the bulk cargo capacity, but not quite twice the small cargo. Every four super freighters needs an extra cargo ship to make up the loss in small cargo that comes from not handling it with regular freighters. (This does get you a tiny additional amount of bulk capacity, but *shrug* these things are tricky. So.)
~10 new cargo ships and ~3 new freighters gives us 50 bulk and 92 small new cargo transport capacity. A single super-freighter would help balance that out a bit, but not by that much.
edit: oops, messed up my numbers - fixed
On the supply loop side, all their new ships (1 capital, ~15 cruisers, ~5 frigates, ~10 auxiliary) amount to about 30s requirement, which translates to about 4 cargo ships. So that helps explain a lot.
I'm expecting their feeder loop to have grown a decent amount due to the GBZ. The industrial loop also expanded due to the new shipyards (as increased route penalty) and the new income (as raw requirement). We already know BR is bulk cargo and SR is small cargo, and that the industrial loop tends to be freighter heavy.
The Cardassians do have a trunk loop to deal with, but since they're frugal Cardassians, I don't expect to be that large. If we look at the member world trunk loops in 2314, the core four have around 50s 25b raw annual requirements with route penalties varying from 1.1 to 1.75, and I have doubts the Cardassians trunk loop is larger than the sum of the core four. However, they have a huge territory, so I expect a large route penalty (maybe 2+?), so maybe the total trunk loop is about equal to the that of core four in aggregate - somewhere around 250s 125b annual requirements?
That 2314 member world loops link also shows the feeder loop dwarfs the trunk loop, around 2x seems typical. And that the trunk loop tends to be larger than the industrial loop, but Amarkia shows a counter-example, so I expect the Cardassian industrial loop to be about equal size to their trunk loop.
So all in all, it's hard to estimate, but on balance it leads me to believe they're mining more new SR than new BR.
Auxiliary Comparison Chart
...
This is not a perfect comparison. For one thing, we don't have to maintain a Trunk trade loop, while the Cardassians do which explains part of their higher number of ships and we have a number of member world craft hauling ore and pare parts for Starfleet.
In general, I think the Cardassian Union is being deeply serious about its logistics and intends to try and build the decadent Federation to death. I look forward to their faces as we increase our own auxiliary construction capacities.
Additionally, it's not fair to compare the Cardassians with Starfleet alone. At the very least, it should be a comparison between the core 4 member economies plus Starfleet (and Starfleet's auxiliary fleet is still rather stagnant until recently). Adding all those up, I get:
Additionally, it's not fair to compare the Cardassians with Starfleet alone. At the very least, it should be a comparison between the core 4 member economies plus Starfleet (and Starfleet's auxiliary fleet is still rather stagnant until recently). Adding all those up, I get:
Let's tack another set of data in here. We just got the Romulan numbers and we know they're a co-peer power.
Ship Class
Cardassian Union
Orig Federation (Core 4 + Starfleet)
Romulan Star Empire
Civilian Ship
?
87
~50
Cargo Ship
~45
97
~70
Freighter
~25
41
25
Passenger Ship
4
11
~10
Engineering Ship
~6
23
~15
Prospector
~6
13
~5
Colony Ship
~5
13
~8
Hospital Ship
1
13
~4
Research Cruiser
2
7
~5
Super-Freighter
2
0 (yup...)
~5
Thoughts from this:
Wow do we have a lot of hospital ships.
Maybe we just kept all the larger berths turning out non-Auxiliary hulls? Important to remember that the Federation is built out of parts and those pieces have their own goals and interests.
Maybe we just kept all the larger berths turning out non-Auxiliary hulls? Important to remember that the Federation is built out of parts and those pieces have their own goals and interests.
If you're referring to super-freighters, none of the Four Core members had any berths larger than 1mt at game start, and Starfleet only had one such berth.
If you're referring to super-freighters, none of the Four Core members had any berths larger than 1mt at game start, and Starfleet only had one such berth.
Its the Vibe i'm getting from his posts. nothing definitive, (please let us know if I am offbase). Its not like starfleet has forgotten how to make them.
The latest logistics update was here. Amarkia is labeled a hub and destination, but the trunk loop isn't really broken down. I don't have the time right now to try to calculate how a trunk loop change would affect things. The last in depth analysis i saw was on page 2179.
Oneiros has already stated that we will be seeing the federation tactical report, that said I am expecting it to be similar to the sample below (GBZ, Apinae, Indoria, Rethelia).
We will be able to get on the front foot with upcoming construction projects and forward plan resources, rather then racing to plug gaps that have opened up. We will also get to read more about the development being undertaken by the Federation rather then being blindsided by domestic political actions. We will also gain more options on how we respond to development needs and forward base materials.
Federation Council Options for 2310.Q2
* Establish forward Outposts in the new Cardassian Border Zone, 4 turns, 20pp (create Outpost Is at 4 locations)
Federation Council Options for 2306.Q2
* Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar)
Sample Status/Progress of Cardassian-Federation War
============
Gabriel Front
Key Objectives The Camden Sector - The Gateway to the Gabriel Border Zone, fortified with outposts
The Dorseta Sector - Heavily reinforced outposts protecting mining colonies. 67 Gabriel - The Starbase and minor colony world
Aranyak - The Starbase that controls the shipping lanes back to Karadoc
Karadoc - One of the major worlds, hub of Cardassian activity at the base of the nebula and major shipyards
Apinae Front
Major Objectives Apinae - A federation core world and fleet hub. large shipyards protected by a Starbase
Burizz III - A large colony world, contains undefended shipyards.
Grrizzi - An undefended minor colony world. Kamey Prime - A Cardassian mining colony, current launching point of Cardassian raids into the Apinae front.
Vedarot - A major Cardassian colony, protects the approach to the Cardassia and is reinforced with an outpost.
Indorian Front
Major Objectives Indoria - A federation core world. Protected by a Starbase
Lapycorias Starbase - The most Spinward asset in the federation. Bajor - Little is known of this Affiliate, it is currently being used as a staging point for Cardassian fleet actions in this front. Balogot - A major Cardassian colony, is reinforced with an outpost.
Trangot - A major Cardassian colony, protects the approach to the Cardassia and is reinforced with an outpost.
Seyek Front
Major Objectives Rethelia - A federation affiliate. large shipyards protected by a Starbase
Hacitorus - A large colony world, contains undefended shipyards. Gandei - Minor colony world Galundun - One of the major worlds, hub of Cardassian activity at the base of the nebula and major shipyards, protected by a starbase.
I think it's more likely that Indoria, Lapycorias, Rethelia, and Bajor are going to be on a single front, with a 'Flanking Space' or 'Frontier' front encompassing Noldon Torkad, Perkash, Hacitorus, and Hassonus. Possibly Galundun is part of both fronts, being right at the edge and the only major hub available to the Cardassians for the latter.
Important to note that on the Flanking Frontier, our holdings seem to be much more compact and much better defended than the Cardassians, possibly giving us a major opening to raid behind their lines if we can capture those outlying mines as forward bases
So I know we have a few Sotaw super-fans in the thread. What did you think of how I touched on them in my omake?
1. Go-betweens for Federation/Romulan trade.
2. Viewing the Neutral Zone as, "Well we guess all of this will belong to us since everyone else in the neighborhood is forbidden by treaty to explore it." (I find the idea of the Sotaw settling a "pocket empire" the exact shape of the Neutral Zone to be hilarious.)
In fact, I can put an absolute upper bound on it, assuming 10 new cargo ships and 3 new freighters. 4 of those cargo ships are reserved for supply for the newly built ships. That leaves 42b 60s of new capacity among 6 cargo ships and 3 freighters.
With the following simplifying assumptions (which are almost surely incorrect - any one of these would reduce the upper bound):
- Trunk loop didn't increase
- Industrial loop's route penalty didn't increase
- There is no increased RP income (which would use up small cargo for feeder loop)
- Because of the size of the Cardassian Union, let's say their route penalties for the feeder and industrial loop are the same as those for Starfleet: 1.25 for feeder loop, 2 for industrial loop.
But logistics loops can't share cargo ships or freighters, so this complicates things... The only way I could distribute the ships between the loops while maximizing income is:
feeder loop: 3 cargo ship, 1 freighter => 16b 28s
industrial loop: 3 cargo ship, 2 freighter => 26b 32s
Multiplying by 5 to get BR and SR, the upper bound new mining income for the Cardassians since 2310 is:
77b*5 = 385br
96s*5 = 480sr
With the known 2310.Q1 Cardassian shipbuilding budget of 340br 250sr, and with the simplifying assumption that there's no increase in non-mining budget (a bad assumption, but bear with me), the upper bound on Cardassian shipbuilding budget is:
340+385 = 725br
250+480 = 730sr
Which is pretty on par with Starfleet's annual income, just more balanced between BR and SR.
Now the Cardassians likely have far greater control over their shipbuilding budget than Starfleet does, so even if the new mining income isn't at the upper bound, they could potentially increase their budget by diverting domestic resources into the military. Or start exploiting the crap out of Bajor...
Cheshi, Daughter of Negadh is almost certainly the local head agent of Klingon Imperial Intelligence, unless she's fronting for someone else. She finagled a Permanent Resident status on Solitude, runs the Forever Alone Teahouse and Tavern.
Now the Cardassians likely have far greater control over their shipbuilding budget than Starfleet does, so even if the new mining income isn't at the upper bound, they could potentially increase their budget by diverting domestic resources into the military. Or start exploiting the crap out of Bajor...
Well. Looking at the Logistics post, our cargo volume x route penalty is 217s 220b x 1.25 = 272s 275b for the Feeder, and 134s 171b x 2 = 268s 342b for the Industry loops.
Assuming that either it takes the same effort to reduce our route penalties on both routes by the same amount, or that easily reducing the Industrial route penalty isn't even possible, the easiest way to reduce our needed shipping is to reduce the Feeder Route Penalty.
Looking at the front page, many of our resource colonies are located in the west of the Federation (Lapycorias, Themis, Gamma Canidae, Aelin, everything near Gabriel), but our Industry hubs are almost exclusively in the east. Therefore, expanding our Industry west to meet our raw resource shipments earlier should do quite a bit to simplify the Feeder routes.
A possible problem is that doing so might undo any gains by increasing our Industry Loop penalties by more than we decrease our Feeder penalties. However, Amarkia is right next to our westmost existing industry hub, Tales Hanar, so that should be well possible, likewise for Alukk, near Ord Grind Duk.
Apinae might well be a different story, as far away from our industrial heartland as it is. Though it's kinda surprising that one of our largest and most industrious members doesn't actually have any Industry Hubs in it's territory.
Other good candidates might be Ferasa and Betazed, which sit right in the middle of major mining colony clusters, and Ferasa is even relatively near the existing Industry Hub of Ord Grind Duk, same as Alukk. Edit: An alternative to Betazed might be New Seoul, which is closer to Atatan.
Though I have the feeling that the list of [trade/supply] hubs and industry [hubs] are out of date. The hubs don't even mention Rigel, which pretty much has to be a hub just to support Rigel sector. Amarkia also has to be an industrial hub by now because we've built critical ship infrastructure there. Apinae may become an industrial hub once the shipyard there is complete in 2317.
The list of hubs (trade/supply/industry/etc.) seem to have the same source as the old Ghost & Whisper crisis status page, which lists various Federation/Starfleet assets across worlds (like "Industrial Assets"). I figure industrial hubs are the superset of the Industrial Assets listed there and shipyard locations.
There's also the fact that what are considered "hubs" depends on the member fleet (or Starfleet).
The logistic posts we have seen show that by halving our supply line length (to Amarkia) we would drastically cut down on the starfleet logistic requirements across all four Spinward fronts, this means less convoys to protect, more war material available for allocation. Basically putting Amarkia on the trunk line would have exponential returns for us.
