Note: more cargo ships than new freighters could indicate that they're finding/mining more new SR than new BR.
They could be pushing for super freighters to handle say the industrial and trunk loops.
Todamak has a berth that can pump those out at one every four years:
Todamak Merchant Yards @ Todamak [1x2mt, 2x500kt]
And, as a side note, a super freighter has twice the bulk cargo capacity, but not quite twice the small cargo. Every four super freighters needs an extra cargo ship to make up the loss in small cargo that comes from not handling it with regular freighters. (This does get you a tiny additional amount of bulk capacity, but *shrug* these things are tricky. So.)

Auxiliary Comparison Chart
Ship Cardassian Star Fleet
Cargo ~45 17
Freighter ~25 4
Passenger 4 2
Engineering ~6 6
Prospector ~6 4
Colony Ship ~5 6
Hospital Ship 1 4 (Ranger)
Research Cruiser 2  
Super-Freighter 2  
Under Construction (all types) 12 10? (I'm doing this over lunch. I've probably missed some.)
This is not a perfect comparison. For one thing, we don't have to maintain a Trunk trade loop, while the Cardassians do which explains part of their higher number of ships and we have a number of member world craft hauling ore and pare parts for Starfleet.
In general, I think the Cardassian Union is being deeply serious about its logistics and intends to try and build the decadent Federation to death. I look forward to their faces as we increase our own auxiliary construction capacities.
Cruisers are pretty good ships, but the implication to me here is that the Cardassians are betting on a merchant raiding strategy of their own, using cruiser wolf packs or scattered, singular cruiser weight ships to evade or saturate our lines with too many targets to deal with at once. Another option is cruiser death balls to take the fight directly to isolated Explorers.
Yeah. Awkward. Yet another reason to fill out our auxiliary builds.
 
Anyone else curious for a Dylaarian Diplo-Posture report? I can't imagine that the Cardassians have actually respected their thing for IP protection for all this time, and with the resource influx they might actually grow powerful enough to declare independence with a little assistance, should they be so inclined.

Another thing I'd be interested in, a report on Tech and Tactics Advances during the K-R War. Maybe get some free doctrine research especially.
 
There is one major weakness in the Cardassian fleet, poor science values. They have the science Takaaki which has a value of 5, after that the Jaldun, Kaldur and Lorgot have a value of 3. The rest of their fleet has a value of 1. That means in general our own ships will boost our fleet evasion while reducing theirs, not to mention all the science traps we can pull on them. Furthermore mines will work well against them as those are a science test. In fact a priority in conflict should be eliminating the science Takaakis.
 
There is one major weakness in the Cardassian fleet, poor science values. They have the science Takaaki which has a value of 5, after that the Jaldun, Kaldur and Lorgot have a value of 3. The rest of their fleet has a value of 1. That means in general our own ships will boost our fleet evasion while reducing theirs, not to mention all the science traps we can pull on them. Furthermore mines will work well against them as those are a science test. In fact a priority in conflict should be eliminating the science Takaakis.
To be fair, the bulk of our combat fleet has Science 3 or lower as well. Our main fighting classes are:

Miranda-A: Science 2
Constitution-B and Renaissance: Science 3
Excelsior(-A): Science 5+

Centaur-As may show up in small numbers during battle but don't change the game. Constellation-As are unlikely to be fielded in quantity. Oberths might but it's a lot riskier doing that against the Cardassians; we specifically did it against the Licori because we were REALLY afraid of their superscience, much more so than we were of their conventional weaponry.

The one area where we really have advantages is in the science checks of our fleet flagships, and we'll only have a few of those present in any given battle. The Cardassians may simply be planning to drown us in hulls during key engagements at the point of contact, put a lot of our Excelsiors in the hospital, and then exploit their individual ship-to-ship superiority over much of our fleet.

Cruisers are pretty good ships, but the implication to me here is that the Cardassians are betting on a merchant raiding strategy of their own, using cruiser wolf packs or scattered, singular cruiser weight ships to evade or saturate our lines with too many targets to deal with at once. Another option is cruiser death balls to take the fight directly to isolated Explorers.

Either way, they are intending to exploit a numbers and mobility advantage. And the latter option would be especially painful for Starfleet given how much we depend on those Explorers politically and otherwise.
The problem is that they outnumber our explorers but not our frigates. Honestly, they seem to be simply standardizing on a ship type that is effective in all roles and numerous enough to fill all roles, while we've been diversifying across several ship types.

Like SWB, I don't think we can read from "the Cardassians are building a lot of Jalduns" that the Cardassians are planning to use them in any particular way. Indeed, that itself might be part of the point- by building a fleet that can profitably pursue almost any strategy they wish, the Cardassians stop us from being able to deduce their strategy in advance and counter it.

As is said in my post, we have been warned that due to the logistics SNAFU our options/costs will be different this Snakepit, So I think we need to see the updated options first.
Okay, well, could you at least prioritize things? Like, you could have three lists:

1) Things you would like to see done specifically in 2317, and will push for in each subsequent year. PP budget may not allow it, but these are things you would specifically like us to commit resources to in the immediate future.

2) Things you would like to see done in the near future, and have reason to think can be done, but which it isn't practical to do yet. Either because the pp budget simply isn't there, or because some other condition (like Seyek ratification) has to be met first.

3) Things you would like to see done, but which you know cannot be done under present conditions and may never be possible. Things that simply are not a snakepit option and never have been, for instance.

...

Now, "Amarkia Planitia" would fall under (3). We got Utopia Planitia as a special option and have no strong reason to expect that option to arise again. It's pointless to even discuss it in the near future.

An Amarki heavy industrial plant would fall under (2); there probably won't be support for spending 100+ political will on it, but some day there might be. It's worth talking about the merits of such a thing, but unlikely to win much support in the short term because people know it can't happen.

Things like construction at Indoria would fall under (1); a good enough argument easily COULD convince us to do that next year.

If you would clearly differentiate which things fall under which category for you, it would be a lot easier to have a meaningful conversation. Right now you've just got this huge wishlist of ambitious development projects and it's a bit like Project Atlantropa or something, in that you can excitedly talk about how awesome it sounds but other people aren't going to engage with it very much.

Our outposts are best used with our fleet support, which is going to be stretched incredibly thin across the border zone, but if we had more warning of where they are about to hit we could maximise our responses.
"More warning is better," while true, is not sufficient justification for spending 120pp. For that matter it may not even be possible to spend the relevant pp on what you want, because we've already been told we HAVE listening posts on the border. And we can't just keep building more indefinitely, nor should we.

Yep. The second was alluded to by OneirosTheWriter as a benefit of getting on top of the logistic debt. The third could be simplified as fix logistics so we can build, and open up capacity so we can mobilise for war if needed (which increases freight demand).
So... which buttons do we push, in order to make your goals happen?

To be clear, I'm talking about "Deploy war reserve stock in Apinae, Indooria, Rethelia; Logistic/Engineering ships to fortify and support war mobilisation" here.

The supply chain question is more that we don't know if Critical Ship infrastructure has already done this for us, and if not, can we do more so that it does. the whole logistic model is still unclear, but if there is any way we can make Amarkia a spinward hub, we should take it.
The key question is, hub for what? There's a big difference between making Amarkia a center of ship construction and making it a center of industrial output.

I think we're a lot better off thinking in terms of distributed repair infrastructure (and the Amarki auxiliary yard already gives considerable flexibility on that front, since we CAN presumably bump those builds in a war emergency). Sol is a good place to build huge numbers of ships precisely because it's a long way from the front lines of our most probable opponent. There's very little reason to build a second such major shipyard node, unless the Federation as a whole, including our revenue stream, roughly doubles in size- which isn't happening soon.
 
Another option, looking at their hospital ships, is a deep penetration coordinated deployment of biowarfare agents.

This won't ever clear the ethics committee, no matter how non-lethal we make the diseases in question, but the Cardassians are severely lacking in medical support.
 
Cardassian Fleet Strength Report
2 Lorgot
7 Kaldar-class cruisers
25~30 Jaldun-class destroyers
~12 Takaaki combat-variant frigates
~12 Hiroshi & Isaamu frigates
3 Takaaki science-variant frigates​
Cardassian Projected Fleet Strength 2316 (2310.Q1, 2311.Q4, and 2314.Q4):
6 Hiroshi Frigate
3 Takaaki Science
4 Isamu Frigate
16 Takaaki Combat Frigate (3 per 2 year since 2310)
~27 Jaldun Cruiser (13 Jaldun 2310 plus 2 completed yearly since 2310 plus estimated 1 per 3 years since 2314)
~8-9 Kaldar Cruiser (estimated 2 every 3 year since 2314)
1 Lorgot Battlecruiser​
Romulan Fleet Strength Report
10~12 Devoras-class Heavy Warbird
6~10 Daljerra-class Warbirds
~40 Bird of Prey
~5 Science Ships​
Romulan Projected Fleet Strength 2316 (2313.Q4 and 2314.Q4):
8-11 Devoras Heavy Warbird (2316)
32-40 Bird of Prey (2316)
4-7 Daljera Warbird (2316-2317)
7 D7 Cruisers (2316)​



I just want to boast that I was pretty close with my projections, was I not? I think I nailed the Cardassian one. Looks like the D7 are either out of commission or have been expended in the war.

Anyway, intelligence tracking is in the process of being updated. Our least up-to-date non-diplomatic report is now Klingon Fleet Strength, which I highly recommend ordering next year.
 
Another option, looking at their hospital ships, is a deep penetration coordinated deployment of biowarfare agents.

This won't ever clear the ethics committee, no matter how non-lethal we make the diseases in question, but the Cardassians are severely lacking in medical support.
StesekFrowningAsHePullsOnABalaclavaAndWithTearsInHisEyesShovesYouInTheBackOfADarkShuttle.jpg
 






I just want to boast that I was pretty close with my projections, was I not? I think I nailed the Cardassian one. Looks like the D7 are either out of commission or have been expended in the war.

Anyway, intelligence tracking is in the process of being updated. Our least up-to-date non-diplomatic report is now Klingon Fleet Strength, which I highly recommend ordering next year.
My assumption is the D-7 have been lost, they only had 10 of them and they were not good ships. Klingon fleet report would be nice, we last got one back in 2311.
 
If you would clearly differentiate which things fall under which category for you, it would be a lot easier to have a meaningful conversation. Right now you've just got this huge wishlist of ambitious development projects and it's a bit like Project Atlantropa or something, in that you can excitedly talk about how awesome it sounds but other people aren't going to engage with it very much.

Funny thing is that according to the wikipedia page you linked, Project Atlantropa was actually carried out in Star Trek. One of Roddenberry's pet ideas.
 
Another option...
This won't ever clear the ethics committee...
Why bother even bringing it up? If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, why present it as an option? What purpose is served?

Funny thing is that according to the wikipedia page you linked, Project Atlantropa was actually carried out in Star Trek. One of Roddenberry's pet ideas.
I think that's right up there with four-boobied Betazoids as one of Roddenberry's worse ideas. Only D.C. Fontana wasn't in a position to talk him out of it, and/or was too busy arguing bout Betazoids.
 
My assumption is the D-7 have been lost, they only had 10 of them and they were not good ships. Klingon fleet report would be nice, we last got one back in 2311.

Actually, they still have D7s, they just didn't make it into the Fleet Strength Report despite us knowing that they're still in operation:

Suspected Force on Romulan Border:
0 Heavy Warbird
1 Birds of Prey
2 D7s

A re-calibration after determining the source of the Biophage.

Which is very silly. On one hand Linderley's people are telling us "oh no D7s left" and then the very next report says "BTW they have two D7s on the border". Ghost cruisers.
 
Why bother even bringing it up? If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, why present it as an option? What purpose is served?

Because we are estimating the best ways to resolve the war with the Cardassians, and unethical methods must be considered if only to deny them. Because then, if we do get in a war with the Cardassians and are losing we'll be able to look at all the carefully considered methods and see in detail why there are some that we must not use, rather than be tempted by desperation to let the Federation's ideals slide.
 
I imagine that the Romulans' surviving D7s are being kept as far back from the front lines as possible.

My working hypothesis is that the D7 was originally a Klingon design intended to counter the large and high-performance Constitutions back in the 2250s, which they did by cramming a lot of firepower into a relatively limited platform. The resulting ship didn't have anything like the Constitutions' upgrade potential, so they didn't age well at all, which would help to explain why their stats are so low they strongly imply that the ships are still flying around with their TOS-era equipment.

The really satisfactory counter to the Connies didn't come out until the K'tinga-class.

Because we are estimating the best ways to resolve the war with the Cardassians, and unethical methods must be considered if only to deny them.
Uh... no, they really don't? We're under no obligation to talk about obviously unethical ideas. Nothing bad happens if we do.

Because then, if we do get in a war with the Cardassians and are losing we'll be able to look at all the carefully considered methods and see in detail why there are some that we must not use, rather than be tempted by desperation to let the Federation's ideals slide.
This is not real life. This is a quest. The voterbase isn't in any danger of being blown up or sent to a Cardassian prison camp if we 'lose.' There's a pretty sharp limit to how desperate they're going to get, and to the options Oneiros even presents, even in 'desperate' situations. I don't think this concern is realistic.

If anyone does suggest doing ghastly things that are obviously unethical... well. My experience is that the people who are most likely to want to kill the lampreys in wartime are not somehow a totally separate group of people from the ones who talk about killing the lampreys in peacetime.
 
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In regards to the Lorgot Battlecruiser. we should spend some PP on finding out as much about the design of the ship as we can if we haven't already. That way it will be easier to destroy them when the time comes and our forces encounter them. And we have a good chance to destroy them in combat.

Already commented on, but to repeat, the Lorgot is considered a failure by the Cardassians. A huge punch, but a glass jaw, which saw the only Federation battle involving a Lorgot with an escorting Jaldun be an easy Federation victory (they didn't get the time loops version of the battle). So, yes, we need to be aware of them as line breakers in a fleet ball, but that low Hull value means any shield penetration dooms them quickly.
 
The problem is that they outnumber our explorers but not our frigates. Honestly, they seem to be simply standardizing on a ship type that is effective in all roles and numerous enough to fill all roles, while we've been diversifying across several ship types.

Like SWB, I don't think we can read from "the Cardassians are building a lot of Jalduns" that the Cardassians are planning to use them in any particular way. Indeed, that itself might be part of the point- by building a fleet that can profitably pursue almost any strategy they wish, the Cardassians stop us from being able to deduce their strategy in advance and counter it.

Considering how the Cardassian fleet consisted almost entirely of Galors and Keldons in the 2360s & 70s, we really should have seen this coming.
 
Considering how the Cardassian fleet consisted almost entirely of Galors and Keldons in the 2360s & 70s, we really should have seen this coming.
To be fair, we kind of did. :p

It is reasonable to suppose that the Cardassians are going to roll out with some 'transitional' ships starting within the next decade or so that are built to the same scale as their existing Jaldun/Kaldar mix but updated technologically to match or slightly outperform the Renaissance-class and be less badly outclassed against the Excelsior-A. We're likely to see the Galors some time in the 2330s or 2340s, with the Keldons being introduced a bit later than that.

I strongly suspect, though, that the Galors will turn out to be larger than the 1.2-megaton Jalduns.
 
Next shipyard operations vote we should be voting for the name of the Apinae shipyard. We could name it Intazzi to maintain the correspondence between ship design tech teams and shipyards? That would leave generic team 3 (frigate/cruisers) to be named after Anna Font or perhaps Lasieth where the hospital ship they designed is being prototyped, and generic team 2 (capital/weapons) after Lor'Vela when they graduate to full teams.
 
Next shipyard operations vote we should be voting for the name of the Apinae shipyard. We could name it Intazzi to maintain the correspondence between ship design tech teams and shipyards? That would leave generic team 3 (frigate/cruisers) to be named after Anna Font or perhaps Lasieth where the hospital ship they designed is being prototyped, and generic team 2 (capital/weapons) after Lor'Vela when they graduate to full teams.

I dunno. Intazzi is presumably a preexisting Apiata organization with their own history, unlike the Generic Teams whose background we can make whatever we want.
 
The Keldon was introduced after the Federation-Cardassian War, primarily because of the late-war appearance of the Galaxy class and it's ability to stomp on the Galor without visible effort.

The Cardassians probably haven't reached a crisis point on Rennies yet, they've got them comfortably outnumbered and cooperative tactics cover for a multitude of design performance sins. I do expect to see a reaction to the Ambassador, though.
 
I dunno. Intazzi is presumably a preexisting Apiata organization with their own history, unlike the Generic Teams whose background we can make whatever we want.
Speculation: we'd make them very happy bees if a long-serving ship design bureau finally got their own namesake shipyard, a la San Fran, UP, etc.

Honestly, I could see an argument for stopping diplomacy pushing affiliates who've reached the 300-level, in an attempt to lessen the whole "too many new members!" issue. It would also give us a chance to build up our fleets and set decent garrisons in our sectors.

...Huh, I appear to have turned Development.
Honestly, if we can set aside N'Gir for a moment, there's probably a really good reason the Development party is in power right now. The D-requirements and holding down the GBZ have us stretched thin, and the situation could get more wild if the Seyek and Qloathi get their own sectors, instead of being ate by Ferasa. We'd be pretty lucky if the Orions get added wholesale to the Amarkia sector as well and we don't see D go up. This is to say nothing about what might happen if we pushed the Ked Peddah and Hoiani hard.

I suspect Development's continual electoral success is in part response to the huge expansion that the Federation has undergone. Politically, the council has already basically doubled in seats, and if @aeqnai 's predictive count is accurate, we're looking at anywhere from 10 to 16 more seats. Starfleet has already doubled the amount of home sectors it covers and tons of border zones have sprung up, while we leave the member states to pick up logistical slack.

I don't think the Federation electorate is blind to this. Nor do I think they're blind to the increasing deployment of member state assets to potential flashpoints. In the context of strengthening the Federation after it might have expanded too quickly, a lot of N'Gir's initiatives make sense. She wants Starfleet to play logistical catch-up before it expands its tail even more with Seyek, Qolathi, and Orion membership, and the increase in jurisdictions, the size of the Fed, and the specter of political unrest prompted her to consider forming a dedicated policing force, probably having the CFP largely in mind. We know this idea is to some extent popular with the electorate as well, hence her picking up political support (which is somehow verboten for a politician).

If it's appropriate to put this on Starfleet is another question. I know we're all trying to forget that vote, but I think we need to keep it in the back of our minds because it probably will come up again, because increasing the Federation's internal strength is what Development is all about, and a multi-national peacekeeper unit is very nice for that.

E: this is probably also a good time to bring up something uncomfortable -- both gaeni councilors went right into N'Gir's semi-coalition.
 
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If it's appropriate to put this on Starfleet is another question. I know we're all trying to forget that vote, but I think we need to keep it in the back of our minds because it probably will come up again, because increasing the Federation's internal strength is what Development is all about, and a multi-national peacekeeper unit is very nice for that.

It was a good idea with poor execution.

I'd be happy with doing it over on the weekend when Onerios can troubleshoot it.
 
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