Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
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He was talking about the Dylaarians, not the Dawiar. The Dylaarians aren't really in a position to strike at our flanks, but they border the Cardassians directly.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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He was talking about the Dylaarians, not the Dawiar. The Dylaarians aren't really in a position to strike at our flanks, but they border the Cardassians directly.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't suppose we can get a Snakepit option to do just that?
Hmm, not as helpful as hoped. Can Intel answer these questions:
1) If war kicks off between the Cardassians and Federation tomorrow and the Sydraxians stay neutral, what do the Yrillians do?
2) Is there any point to further diplopushes, since hitting even Greater Affiliate level seems to have accomplished jack shit?
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- Location
- Australia
<Insert furious mass debate joke here>Well, let us know what they decide on.
For comparison here is the current Starfleet forces as of the recent ship distribution vote:
2 Excelsior-A [Endurance, Sojourner] = C7 + C7 = C14
7 Excelsior [Pathfinder, Avandar, Excelsior, Thirishar, Salnas, Kumari, Rru'adorr] = C6 + C6 + C6 + C6 + C6 + C7 + C6 = C43
1 Constitution-A [Cheron] = C6
4 Renaissance [Renaissance, Epiphany, Enlightenment, Insight] = C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 = C20
9 Constitution-B [Huascar, Valiant, Korolev, Defiant, Exeter, Saratoga, Republic, Lexington, Hood] = C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 + C5 = C45
5 Constellation [Docana, Vigour, Kearsage, Selaya, Stalwart] = C4 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 = C16
8 Centaur-A [Lightning, Zephyr, Bull, Yukikaze, Cloudburst, Typhoon, Gale, Winterwind] = C3 + C3 + C3 + C4 + C3 + C3 + C4 + C3 = C26
2 Miranda [Dryad, Calypso] = C3 + C3 = C6
11 Miranda-A [T'Kumbra, Agile, Bantam, Clarion, Fidelity, Bon Vivant, Shield, Intrepid, Eketha, Eclipse, Firefly] = C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 + C3 = C33
4 Oberth [Inspire, Hawking, T'Mir, Torbriel] = C1 + C1 + C3 + C1 = C6
Total = C14 + C43 + C6 + C20 + C45 + C16 + C26 + C6 + C33 + C6 = C215
So we're fairly well matched with the Cardassians. Especially when you consider that doesn't include the Explorer Corps (~C45), our various member world fleets, or any of the ships we currently have under repair/refit/construction.
- Location
- Australia
In my opinion we need to pause the diplopushes regardless. This Snakepit we either need to Start creating an actual forward defence on our Cardassian fronts, or abandon the concept and find a new doctrine. We can't keep paying lipservice to the concept while dumping all starfleets efforts into diplomacy. As it stands we have to take action because the Council will not accept that losing Rethelia and Indoria are acceptable in a war with Cardassia.
If we don't go down this path then both Council and Starfleet need to chill and stop antagonising Cardassia at every opportunity.
Towards this end, we should put our political will towards fixing logistics, investing in engineering and start adding outposts, shipyards and Starbases spin-wards.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Oh, certainly - whilst I was worrying about GBZ force comparisons (though less so now we know they're focusing on consolidating) in a straight-up war we'd be pretty evenly matched.
I think you're the one who is overcommitting to the forward defense idea. Even if we heavily fortified the Cardassian border it would be impossible to stop an offensive at the border itself simply because we have to spread our ships all around the Federation, including especially our other borders. The idea is a non-starter.
Nevermind that we aren't allowed to build on the Seyek side yet or that we haven't had outpost options in Snakepit for about half a decade.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
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... The actual fuck. Dude, you realize that the point of applying diplomatic effort to the Sydraxians, Yrillians, and Dawiar was not "yay more members" but rather to split them from the Cardassians and both reduce Cardassian strength and boost our own?
Also, if you look at the last Snakepit, we are spending way more PP on non-diplomatic approaches than otherwise. The GBZ already hosts almost half of Starfleet a third with the temporary drawdown). We have placed great effort towards fortifying it; the NPC commander is in charge of additional efforts. Already a Starbase in the CBZ too. We've placed.new yards at the closest spot, which is Apinae.
So, uh....how are we not following Forward Defense?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Whilst you're correct on all counts, I'd still like to slow down diplopushes on >300 affiliates, to try and mitigate the 2318 ratification frenzy we know is coming. (It's a bit early to be planning Snakepit purchases, but it would also likely help pay for that 70pp extra intel report.)
We haven't pushed a 300 level affiliate since the moratorium started. The closest we've gotten was pushing 200-ish up past 300, which we did once or twice. But we simply have never done the thing you're complaining about.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I thought we were planning to do so with the ones that were going to be "almost there"? Or am I misremembering?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
So a couple takeaways:
1) Our Hishmeri response fleet is going to take away some of the Dawiar appreciation that that Cardassian task force was hoping for.
2) That Hishmeri fleet is huge. Larger than the Apiata - we're talking at least 100C worth of military ships, and assuming each of their auxiliaries has C1, then that's another 100C, totaling at least 200C! Not that they'd ever risk sending their auxiliaries into battle, but if someone were to wage a war of extermination on them, good luck.
3) Dawiar are wavering and relying on trade with the Federation members and affiliates more and more. Once the Qloathi join us, that could serve as an inflection point.
4) The Romulan-Klingon war this year has seriously escalated. But surprisingly it could actually still be less brutal than the Arcadian war, at least in terms of the amount of casualties or destruction per quarter. In a single quarter, the Federation plus Ked Paddah destroyed 14 to 30 Arcadian ships and structures, depending on what happens to disabled ships after battle ends in our favor, while suffering 8 destroyed ships in return. If we factor in estimated losses of structures and unrecovered disabled ships, the Romulan-Klingon war is probably around 50 total ship and structure losses over the whole year.
5) The GBZ news is good news. Dylaarians getting enough resources to become a tier 2 or 1.5 power was already in the realm of our expectations given the bounty in the GBZ. After all, the Apiata and Amarki are at/approaching such status already.
6) Cardassians fleet strength... I would've thought they had more military ships by now, so they're clearly hampered by the need for more merchant marine. Starfleet alone almost outproduces them. Our estimates on their fleet composition are quite off too - extreme focus on Jalduns over Kaldars and Takaakis.
7) No sign of Cardassian ship refits yet. edit: or new ship classes in general
8) Cardassian shipyards are also quite revealing. The new berths they've built are about half merchant marine and half military. They only have 5 berths capable of building Kaldars, and one of them is earmarked for auxiliary construction (likely super-freighters). They only have a single 2mt berth and none larger, so they aren't intending on building a larger ship yet.
I'm actually getting mixed signals here. They ARE using much of their new capacity for merchant marine construction.
BUT they ARE building their military forces at a faster pace (compared to 2314.Q4 that is). Furthermore, they haven't been constructing that many Takaaki or Kaldar recently and have instead built 12-17 new Jalduns over the past 6 years, and now they're just resuming higher Takaaki and Kaldar construction while keeping pace with Jaldun building.
Here's the new shipyards they've built - 5 out of the 13 berths are dedicated for the merchant marine:
Galdundun Heavy Industry @ Galdundun [1x1500kt, 2x1200kt]
Karadoc State Shipyards @ Karadoc [2x1200kt]
Cardassia Merchant Yards [2x1200kt]
Trangot Assembly Yard @ Trangot [3x750kt]
Balogot Merchant Yards @ Balogot [3x750kt]
Compare this current report with previous intel:
edit: wording
1) Our Hishmeri response fleet is going to take away some of the Dawiar appreciation that that Cardassian task force was hoping for.
2) That Hishmeri fleet is huge. Larger than the Apiata - we're talking at least 100C worth of military ships, and assuming each of their auxiliaries has C1, then that's another 100C, totaling at least 200C! Not that they'd ever risk sending their auxiliaries into battle, but if someone were to wage a war of extermination on them, good luck.
3) Dawiar are wavering and relying on trade with the Federation members and affiliates more and more. Once the Qloathi join us, that could serve as an inflection point.
4) The Romulan-Klingon war this year has seriously escalated. But surprisingly it could actually still be less brutal than the Arcadian war, at least in terms of the amount of casualties or destruction per quarter. In a single quarter, the Federation plus Ked Paddah destroyed 14 to 30 Arcadian ships and structures, depending on what happens to disabled ships after battle ends in our favor, while suffering 8 destroyed ships in return. If we factor in estimated losses of structures and unrecovered disabled ships, the Romulan-Klingon war is probably around 50 total ship and structure losses over the whole year.
5) The GBZ news is good news. Dylaarians getting enough resources to become a tier 2 or 1.5 power was already in the realm of our expectations given the bounty in the GBZ. After all, the Apiata and Amarki are at/approaching such status already.
6) Cardassians fleet strength... I would've thought they had more military ships by now, so they're clearly hampered by the need for more merchant marine. Starfleet alone almost outproduces them. Our estimates on their fleet composition are quite off too - extreme focus on Jalduns over Kaldars and Takaakis.
7) No sign of Cardassian ship refits yet. edit: or new ship classes in general
8) Cardassian shipyards are also quite revealing. The new berths they've built are about half merchant marine and half military. They only have 5 berths capable of building Kaldars, and one of them is earmarked for auxiliary construction (likely super-freighters). They only have a single 2mt berth and none larger, so they aren't intending on building a larger ship yet.
I'm actually getting mixed signals here. They ARE using much of their new capacity for merchant marine construction.
BUT they ARE building their military forces at a faster pace (compared to 2314.Q4 that is). Furthermore, they haven't been constructing that many Takaaki or Kaldar recently and have instead built 12-17 new Jalduns over the past 6 years, and now they're just resuming higher Takaaki and Kaldar construction while keeping pace with Jaldun building.
Here's the new shipyards they've built - 5 out of the 13 berths are dedicated for the merchant marine:
Galdundun Heavy Industry @ Galdundun [1x1500kt, 2x1200kt]
Karadoc State Shipyards @ Karadoc [2x1200kt]
Cardassia Merchant Yards [2x1200kt]
Trangot Assembly Yard @ Trangot [3x750kt]
Balogot Merchant Yards @ Balogot [3x750kt]
Compare this current report with previous intel:
edit: wording
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I think it would make more sense to wait for a different government/make-up of the council. I can't see the development, pacifists and more isolationistic members opting for yet another another diplomatic "assault" on the Ashalla pact so soon after the Sydraxian affair and with so many new members already incoming... At the very least it wouldn't exactly do wonders for the relationship between us and the current president.
There's no point to that, so I really doubt such an idea would have gotten through the Snakepit vote.
I didnt realize we were almost evenly matched with Cardassia without even including member fleets. They will really need to do some crazy shit to close the gap against a fully mobilised federation.
The Council doesn't want to be seen as treaty breakers either. You have to remember that for them, the treaty with Cardassia forestalls armed conflict, rather than our perspective which is more like it writes in the status quo until a new status quo is reached.
Even if a war doesn't start if we get caught in breach of treaty, I certainly don't want to see the Obsidian Order funding Caldonian dissidents, Honiani crusader cultists, or helping Yan-Ros criminals turn into criminal organizations.
- Location
- Australia
So why run a Doctrine that assumes we will fight at our border?
The GBZ is the one front we have actually fortified. Its the Indorian and Rethelian fronts that we will get caught out on. And while we cannot actually build in Seyek yet, we can get started solving the logistic and engineering issues now so we can build once they ratify, we also have had the option to start laying down listening posts now so we both get more intelligence and help to stop a surprise or flank attack.
While we had 1 yard and a expansion made at Apinae, we have very little in the way of available berths for repairs across the entire Spinward arm of the federation.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Comparison table of Cardassian fleet strength between 2310.Q1 and 2316.Q4:
Additionally, in-progress Cardassian ship construction between 2314.Q4 and 2316.Q4 (note that 13 new berths were constructed between these two periods):
So a huge and continuing emphasis on Jalduns, an apparent moratorium on Kaldars until recently, less emphasis on Takaaki combat frigates until recently, and no more Takaaki science frigates. The last Lorgot was completed some time before 2314, so it's a dead end ship class. Oddly enough, they built a few more old Hiroshi or Isaamu frigates, unless that's just estimation error.
On the logistics side, large emphasis on cargo ships, less on freighters, and practically none on the rest until possibly recently. Indeed, they somehow also lost an engineering ship or two
Note: more cargo ships than new freighters could indicate that they're finding/mining more new SR than new BR.
edit: trying to fix table formatting - really finicky...
| Ship Class | 2310.Q1 | 2316.Q4 |
| Lorgot Battlecruiser | 1 | 2 |
| Kaldar Cruiser | 6 | 7 |
| Jaldun Destroyer | 13 | 25~30 |
| Takaaki Combat Frigate | 7 | ~12 |
| Hiroshi Frigate | 6 | ~6 |
| Isaamu Frigate | 4 | ~6 |
| Takaaki Science Frigate | 3 | 3 |
| Cargo Ship | 35 | ~45 |
| Freighter | 22 | ~25 |
| Passenger Ship | 4 | 4 |
| Engineering Ship | 8 | ~6 |
| Prospector | 6 | ~6 |
| Colony Ship | 4 | ~5 |
| Hospital Ship | 1 | 1 |
| Research Cruiser | 2 | 2 |
| Super-Freighter | 2 | 2 |
| Ship Class | 2314.Q4 | 2316.Q4 |
| Kaldar Cruiser | 2 | ~3 |
| Jaldun Destroyer | 7 | ~6 |
| Takaaki Combat Frigate | 3 | ~6 |
| Auxiliary | 6 Cargo Ship | ~12 Auxiliary |
On the logistics side, large emphasis on cargo ships, less on freighters, and practically none on the rest until possibly recently. Indeed, they somehow also lost an engineering ship or two
Note: more cargo ships than new freighters could indicate that they're finding/mining more new SR than new BR.
edit: trying to fix table formatting - really finicky...
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- Location
- Australia
I think I'll try to expand the Tactical post with a bit more information on what the lads at Tactical (or maybe me ) think will be the relevant fronts, and some overall war-readiness sort of indicators. Might cause a delay of a day or so, but we'll see.
) think will be the relevant fronts, and some overall war-readiness sort of indicators. Might cause a delay of a day or so, but we'll see.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
You mean for next year? This year's wargames are just useless filler.
Also not sure of 2v2 is a realistic enough scenario with our ~4 ships in border zones that a wolf pack will try to penetrate. Or whether we'd get some sort of mechanical bonus out of it.
I'd still like to stage an assault on a Starbase so that we get a real sense of how many ships it would take to force our way into a Starbase-defended world.