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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
I think giving them a stock Constellation is really feeding them a turd and calling it lunch. This is not a vessel they're going to refit at some distant date in the future. It's something that they're going to be building starting right now, and a lot of it. By refusing to hand over the refit designs, you're condemning them to build garbage.
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Er what?

They're not going to be building a "lot" of these ships. Unless the Tauni have stockpiling resources for years, they're going to struggle just to build even one or two Starfleet-designed ships by the time they're 300-level major affiliates, or just a handful by the time they're 500-level close affiliates.

You've seen the MWCO reports - you should know how deprived minor powers are of resource income. Even a modern 7 major world power like Andor would struggle to produce a Constellation every year; they can just about handle a Miranda-A per year, but no more than that. Refits, on the other hand, are well within their income levels. By the time we share our modern refit designs, they'll have about 1 or 2 Miranda or Constellation that would need refit, which is within about a year's worth of income for a minor power like Betazed.

You don't need to pad your arguments with exaggerations.

KlavoHunter said:
I'd like to argue for the full-feature Constitution-A instead of -B as a proper Explorer, but UbeOne reminded me that the Tau'ni want some firepower to protect themselves.
The lessened build time and expense on the Connie-B over the -A probably looks great as far as they're concerned.

Much like the Miranda or Patroller debate, I say let them figure it out for themselves. If they want the extra Science and Hull of the -A, they can spring for it.

[x][TAUNI] Constitution-A or -B, Constellation, Miranda or Patroller-A Design
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The Constitution-A listed on the front page is off - it's been retconned to be C4 S3 H3 L3 P4 D5. So not only is it more expensive in SR and officers, it's actually worse in stats than the Constitution-B except for one point in P.

Plus, it's possible that sharing the Constitution-B design could also include the Constitution-A design implicitly, especially if the Constitution-B actually is a refit technically (that we never had reason to exercise and thus were never given the refit costs).

Aeondrac said:
[X][TAUNI] Constitution-B,Constellation-A, Miranda and Patroller-A Design
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Oneiros told us to just provide 1 capital/explorer (which Constitution-B would count towards if crewed with 2 extra officers), 1 cruiser, and 1 frigate design.

We also aren't supposed to suggest member-world designs like the Patroller, but the "or Patroller-A" part of the vote makes it okay I think.

edit: oops, I misread Oneiros' statement - member-world designs are okay, affiliate designs are not
 
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Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 2257 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 56418-56603]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
Task: TAUNI
[X][TAUNI] May Provide Constitution-B, Constellation-A, Oberth, and Patroller-A Designs
No. of Votes: 10
Briefvoice
aledeth
anon_user
Captain Hunt
Joshrand1982
Steven Kodaly
TyrialFrost
UberJJK
Void Stalker
Wellhello
[x][TAUNI] Constitution-B, Constellation, Miranda or Patroller-A Design
No. of Votes: 9
Night
AKuz
Iron Wolf
Jrin
lbmaian
Muramasa
NHO
Simon_Jester
SynchronizedWritersBlock
[X][TAUNI] May Provide Constellation-A, Oberth, and Patroller-A Designs
No. of Votes: 5
Nix
CircleTheSkies
Deathbybunnies
Theunderbolt
Ukrainian Ranger
[X][TAUNI] Patroller-A Design, let them know that more designs will be unlocked as they progress towards joining the federation.
No. of Votes: 4
TyrialFrost
Captain Hunt
Driven by Apathy
Wellhello
[x][TAUNI] Constitution-A, Constellation-A, Miranda-A, Oberth
No. of Votes: 1
Gingganz
[X][TAUNI] May Provide Constellation-A, Oberth, Soyuz, and Patroller-A Designs
No. of Votes: 1
AlphaDelta
[X][TAUNI] May Provide Constellation-A, and Patroller-A Designs
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X][TAUNI] Constitution-A, Connie-B, Constellation-A, Miranda-A, Centaur-A, Oberth.
No. of Votes: 1
chriswriter90
[X][TAUNI] Patroller-A, Constellation-A, and Constitution-A
No. of Votes: 1
Winged One
[x][TAUNI] Constitution-A or -B, Constellation, Miranda or Patroller-A Design
No. of Votes: 1
KlavoHunter
[x][TAUNI] Constitution-B, Constellation-A, Patroller-A
No. of Votes: 1
UbeOne
[x][TAUNI] Constellation-A, Patroller-A
No. of Votes: 1
Nervos Belli
[X][TAUNI] Constitution-B,Constellation-A, Miranda and Patroller-A Design
No. of Votes: 1
Aeondrac
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: FLEET
[X][FLEET] Briefvoice 2317 Fleet Distribution
No. of Votes: 8
Briefvoice
aledeth
anon_user
Captain Hunt
Goat
Joshrand1982
TyrialFrost
Wellhello
[X][FLEET] 2317 Fleet Distribution without shortchanging the LBZ
No. of Votes: 2
SynchronizedWritersBlock
lbmaian
Total No. of Voters: 34
 
Honestly, I'm not opposed to giving out the Constellation-A and Miranda-A. The security reasons are, in my opinion, not relevant, for hulls that are decades old and that have fought multiple battles against multiple powers. I do think giving them the Oberth and the Patroller-A is silly; we have two member fleets with full science ships that I know of, and the Patroller-A option is a fair detection ship, and the S4 Constellation-A is so much better than the Oberth at everything else and cheaper to boot.

So in the interests of fragmenting the vote even further:
[x][TAUNI] Constitution-B, Constellation-A, Miranda-A or Patroller-A Design
 
Briefvoice said:
I am always honest, it's just that sometimes I don't really care about getting all the facts right, only those I'm actually interested in. That sometimes doesn't seem to mesh well with your debate style, where you care about all the details.
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I very much care about the details involving my own motives and assumptions. Because what's the difference between a useless obnoxious donkey, and a person who actually has a role in a meaningful discussion? Their motives, and their starting assumptions.

If I can't expect you to, one way or another, make inferences about my motives and underlying assumptions that are either correct or at least charitably wrong... Well, that takes the assumption of mutual good faith and shoots it right in the head. Which leaves only competitive exercises in sophistry, designed to make one of us the winner and the other a loser, in a zero-sum game.

I am... still marginally willing to believe that's not what you want, though I've been given fairly compelling reason to think otherwise.

Come on, we in the thread have been calling the stock Constellations 'garbage' and 'awful' and such for many real time months now.
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Yes, and it's taken on memetic status in that role; it's the thing people love to hate. As a result, it has a rather lower reputation than it deserves- it's superior or equal to any of the escorts we started the game with, and wound up looking so especially terrible in large part because we got an incredibly good refit for the Centaur-A very early in the game, combined with chronic Enlisted shortages. And because it was being compared and contrasted with Jalduns of more than half again its tonnage and drastically higher cost.

I'm not even sure it is better than what they now have... it's that bad a ship! I got no idea what their current designs look like, but I don't know a stock Constellation is any better.
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A stock Constellation vastly outperforms TOS-era light ships like the Soyuz; we simply haven't seen a significant number of TOS-era heavy ships with confirmed stats from Oneiros in the game, but unless they're significantly better than twice as high-stat as the light ships..* It very much seems as though one would have to struggle to build a ship using early to mid-2200s technology that would outperform the Constellation. With 2260s or 2270s tech maybe you could do it... but that's basically the same technology used to build the Constellations in the first place.

I'd just like to give the Tauni a decent ship now, not give them a not-good ship that can be refit at some future date, likely at the cost of a year extra of yard time per ship.
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Then the Tauni can use their heavy berths to build Constitution-Bs and their light ones to build Patroller-As (if they need noncombat ships) or Mirandas (if they need combat ships). Realistically they're not going to build large numbers of all three ship types in the first place because if they had shipyard infrastructure on that scale they wouldn't be such a small-time naval power. We're talking about a small number of ships, with at least one easy refit path open to them.

Exaggeration isn't called for.

We've been explicitly told that they can build the refit version.
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They can. If we want, we can offer the Constellation-A. The advantage is higher performance. The downsides?

One, if we give them Patrollers too, it locks the Tauni into only one possible path to get a fighting fleet, and that's to build ConnieBees.This is obviously less of an issue if we were to, say, give them the stock Miranda design... but honestly any criticisms of the Constellation are equally valid for the Miranda, with its glass jaw and low event response stats.

Two, it increases the number of ships the Tauni are building and operating that look just about exactly like the latest Starfleet designs (those of the 2310s as opposed to the 2300s or earlier). If people are concerned about the problem of the tech being transferred to second and third parties, that's an issue.
 
Oops I misread that. Full quote: "This is you making suggestions to the Council, so it is okay to suggest member-world designs - not affiliate designs, however"
 
Simon_Jester said:
Another point is that the Constellation-class has multiple refit paths. Starfleet chose to explore a 'pacifist' refit that was highly desirable for us because we'd already chosen to standardize on other (more expensive, more powerful) ship classes as our main frontline fighting cruisers- but we had a pressing need for event responders to take care of general purpose, noncombat duties in our farflung territory.
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As I recall, we took the pacifist refit because the Pacifist party figuratively handed it to us on a silver platter. I mean, we payed what, 10 RP for it?
 
Thing is, it was generally agreed to be a really good refit for what we intended the Constellations to do: rear area garrison duty. People were willing to pay full political will cost for that refit, if they could get it.
 
So the Constellation-A is likely another of those miracle ships like the Rennie that we can't duplicate on the sheet very well.

That said, ignoring keeping the SR cost in range, we're looking at:
- Old phasers, old torpedoes, old targeting computer.
- Modern shield generators.
- Old impulse engines, old nacelles.
- Modernized sensor suite and labs, although we've had these parts for a while.
- Modern computer core and operating system.
- Our fancy new T'Koren sickbay.
- Old hull, old SIF.
- New antimatter storage.
- Depending on design choices could use the old deflector dish or could upgrade.
- An entirely new cutting-edge warp core assembly.

e: Basically, the main difference between the Constellation and Constellation-A is the warp core & related parts, the computer, the sensors, and the labs/sickbays.
 
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[X][TAUNI] Constitution-B, Constellation-A, Miranda-A or Patroller-A Design
 
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You know, Romulans and Klingons would likely be interested in the latest Starfleet sensor and other sciency technology, just to figure out how to better optimize their cloaking against our countermeasures.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
So the Constellation-A is likely another of those miracle ships like the Rennie that we can't duplicate on the sheet very well.
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Man, if we ever intend to be able to do custom refits of old ship classes like Constellations and Mirandas (that in canon have refits that survive into at least the 2370s), we do need somehow reconstruct these ships in the designer.

I've advocated this before, but I'll say it again: we need a larger scale way, like frames or some other broader-than-parts mechanism to vary SR and crew costs sufficiently.

I mean, if we had to model the Romulan Warbird or Defiant or Oberth (*cough*) or other super low BR:SR designs with anything within like 50% of within the original listed costs on the ship designer sheet, we'd need parts with ludicrous SR costs.
 
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lbmaian said:
Man, if we ever intend to be able to do custom refits of old ship classes like Constellations and Mirandas (that in canon have refits that survive into at least the 2370s), we do need somehow reconstruct these ships in the designer.

I've advocated this before, but I'll say it again: we need a larger scale way, like frames or some other broader-than-parts mechanism to vary SR and crew costs sufficiently.

I mean, if we had to model the Romulan Warbird or Defiant or Oberth (*cough*) or other super low BR:SR designs with anything within like 50% of within the original listed costs on the ship designer sheet, we'd need parts with ludicrous SR costs.
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I'm not that far off. I've 43.2 and 46.8 SR versions of the T-1 ship, and the T2 one is 50.964.

There are supposed to be race specific parts for races with crazy ratios. Defiant...well, it doesn't have to resemble the given statline at all.

The Oberth is the only egregious example, but there's a pretty easy solution for it: it has a module, which can be customized with whatever stats and costs we please.
 
[X][TAUNI] May Provide Constitution-B, Constellation-A, Oberth, and Patroller-A Designs

I feel like people are too scared about technology leaks. Our rivals wont be able to steal our ships lunch money just because they know how the polymer used in our medical areas is fabricated.
And IF that was a thing, it would probably be firmly within federations domain, since it would require concentrations of technobabble that you cant find on Cardassian or Klingon ships.
 
CeBrudras said:
I feel like people are too scared about technology leaks. Our rivals wont be able to steal our ships lunch money just because they know how the polymer used in our medical areas is fabricated.
And IF that was a thing, it would probably be firmly within federations domain, since it would require concentrations of technobabble that you cant find on Cardassian or Klingon ships.
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So vote to give them a kepler, Rennie and a Ambassador.

Or maybe handing your best tech to your rivals is a really really stupid idea.
 
Speaking of ship parts and stuff, did we ever get a finalized Kepler sheet?

I've been poking at designing the ship itself again, and been wondering if I should be keeping any physical details in mind.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I'm not that far off. I've 43.2 and 46.8 SR versions of the T-1 ship, and the T2 one is 50.964.

There are supposed to be race specific parts for races with crazy ratios. Defiant...well, it doesn't have to resemble the given statline at all.

The Oberth is the only egregious example, but there's a pretty easy solution for it: it has a module, which can be customized with whatever stats and costs we please.
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Modules may be the answer, but if so, I'd love to use whatever module the Oberth is using on the Kepler.

aeqnai said:
Speaking of ship parts and stuff, did we ever get a finalized Kepler sheet?

I've been poking at designing the ship itself again, and been wondering if I should be keeping any physical details in mind.
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Modules are the big unknown. We have more than 2 years before a Kepler design has to be finalized, so it's not super urgent. It's waiting on Oneiros (and maybe me or SWB) to bake in a more finalized version of modules into the sheet.
 
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