To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- USA
My thoughts for Diplopush-
Obar
Ashidi
Any new races that we find
Those would be it as they are the only real non-affiliates we can push to become affiliates.
@OneirosTheWriter Heavy Industry, does the bonus to construction apply to auxiliary yards and the yards of the member worlds in the system as well as Starfleet yards?
Obar
Ashidi
Any new races that we find
Those would be it as they are the only real non-affiliates we can push to become affiliates.
@OneirosTheWriter Heavy Industry, does the bonus to construction apply to auxiliary yards and the yards of the member worlds in the system as well as Starfleet yards?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It was discussed, but not 'agreed on' in the sense of general thread consensus. However, it's distinctly possible that this will happen, and since the ships are brand-new hulls, they're likely to be around for a long time to come.
Briefvoice's omake got us the project concept.
Oneiros gave us a 40 SR discount off the construction costs for each of the first four ConnieBees after my early 'Leslie' omakes.
So it's fair to say that the class is, yes, Briefvoice's baby. I'm just the
I think we wound up turning the Orions from corrupt cyberpunk corporate oligarchs into reasonably honest advocates of market democracy. They're not giving up on private ownership of the means of production or a market economy, but they are giving up on a lot of the structures that enabled the hypercorps to turn their market economy into an abusive oligarchy. Because it was the abusive and oligarchical aspects of the system that allowed the Syndicate could thrive as a "shadow government" precisely because the real government had been neutered so as to avoid being a threat to the hypercorps' power.
But it's like, we've helped midwife the birth of a new Orion order. The old Overton window ran from "cyberpunk dystopia" to "slightly different cyberpunk dystopia." The new one runs from "cyberpunk, now with 70% less dystopia per serving!" to "the kind of society really nerdy advocates of free market liberalism might advocate."
It could probably still collapse back to dystopia in principle, and indeed some of the reforms we've helped usher in have probably been tried and broken down before in the Orions' long history. But continued contact with the Federation will hopefully prevent any significant backsliding.
- Location
- Australia
Well live fire exercises are always a popular option as well.
Nice, what was the expected service life for that hull?
And a piece of Courageous from every time they've wound up in spacedock. Courageous could wind up with it's own room/hall at Starfleet Museum.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The thing I actually like about that scene is how she looks exactly like a cat that doesn't want to be picked up.
Yes, I do worry about Cheron. She has to be one of the oldest hulls we have still flying, when is her hull going to start cracking up like the Soyuzes did? When it starts to happen, are we going to pay the price to do a custom refit to extend her lifespan, or stick her in orbit somewhere and set up tourist tours?
Vulcans and Romulans in a nutshell.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Australia
Don't worry, this time the Orions have the magic of role models, friendship, and Starfleet deflector dishes to help them stay the course!It was discussed, but not 'agreed on' in the sense of general thread consensus. However, it's distinctly possible that this will happen, and since the ships are brand-new hulls, they're likely to be around for a long time to come.
Briefvoice's omake got us the project concept.
Oneiros gave us a 40 SR discount off the construction costs for each of the first four ConnieBees after my early 'Leslie' omakes.
So it's fair to say that the class is, yes, Briefvoice's baby. I'm just thecrazycool old uncle the ConnieBees like to hang out with when Briefvoice is otherwise occupied.
I think we wound up turning the Orions from corrupt cyberpunk corporate oligarchs into reasonably honest advocates of market democracy. They're not giving up on private ownership of the means of production or a market economy, but they are giving up on a lot of the structures that enabled the hypercorps to turn their market economy into an abusive oligarchy. Because it was the abusive and oligarchical aspects of the system that allowed the Syndicate could thrive as a "shadow government" precisely because the real government had been neutered so as to avoid being a threat to the hypercorps' power.
But it's like, we've helped midwife the birth of a new Orion order. The old Overton window ran from "cyberpunk dystopia" to "slightly different cyberpunk dystopia." The new one runs from "cyberpunk, now with 70% less dystopia per serving!" to "the kind of society really nerdy advocates of free market liberalism might advocate."
It could probably still collapse back to dystopia in principle, and indeed some of the reforms we've helped usher in have probably been tried and broken down before in the Orions' long history. But continued contact with the Federation will hopefully prevent any significant backsliding.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think the need for that has decreased with the rise of very advanced modeling software. Also, combat experience. Even in 'peacetime' our fleet has been seeing significantly more ship-to-ship combat fought with modern weapons than historical 19th and 20th century navies did on average, so there's less need for us to blow up our own ships to see what happens.
Given that the Constitution-Bs are literally brand new hulls, I strongly suspect they'll still be around and structurally intact in the TNG era, if they're well maintained and not abused. Though there may be problems with specific parts that were reused from the Constitution-As, such as warp nacelles and cores. That may prove to be the class's weak point when it comes to long-term endurance.
The nice thing about Courageous is, while she's been put in the hospital by many people, every last one of them has lived to regret doing so. Like the Syndicate. And House Kortennon. And the Ihrloth. You don't remember the Ihrloth? Exactly.
I KNOW RIGHT?
Now, cast her identical granddaughter wreaking calm, composed revenge in this scene, because the TBG television show replaced Enterprise and took Jolene Blalock to play our favorite orbital phaser strike expert.
To be fair, the Soyuz-class hulls date back to the 2240s and maybe '50s, and were NEVER refitted as far as we can tell.
We don't know how old Cheron is, and there's no mention of a Constitution by that name in the TOS or movie era. Given that she remained in service when all other Constitutions had been retired, it may be that she's one of the last ships of the class to be completed. Or one that never saw intensive service and is in effect 'younger' than other Connies due to being 'lower mileage.'
It's entirely possible that Cheron was commissioned as recently as the mid-2280s, the same vintage as (we have reason to believe) the Enterprise-A. If so, she's actually younger than many of our Mirandas and Constellations, and of the same age as Excelsior: about thirty years. Since we know that Excelsiors were still around and in heavy use as late as the Dominion War, it's conceivable that Cheron will remain active and useful that long herself, although she'll probably be supplanted by higher-performing classes over time.
...
On the other hand, that's a fairly optimistic case.
Firstly, we know that classes remain in Starfleet service for a very long time, up to 80-100 years, but it's not certain that actual hulls last that long; the Mirandas we see tooling around in The Next Generation may well have been built in the 2330s and not in the 2270s, for instance. There's a TNG reference to USS Excelsior being assigned to a task force searching for a missing ship, but that COULD be another ship of the same class (or a later class) named to commemorate the original Excelsior.
Secondly, we can't assume just because Cheron has no canon history in TOS or the 'Kirk' movies that the ship is one of the last Constitutions to be constructed. It's not necessarily true. Cheron could have a history more like that of the original Connie's of Kirk's day, having been constructed in the 2240s or '50s, refitted in the '60s or '70s, and then just... soldiering on... into the present day. In which case, even with an eighty year service life, the ship is nearing the end of her run.
In other words, it's a complete tossup and we honestly can't say how long the ship will last, since she COULD have been built any time between 2245 and 2285 or even later, and since there COULD be examples of 2285-vintage ships being still around in the late 2300s... but then again there might not.
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Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I think the need for that has decreased with the rise of very advanced modeling software. Also, combat experience. Even in 'peacetime' our fleet has been seeing significantly more ship-to-ship combat fought with modern weapons than historical 19th and 20th century navies did on average, so there's less need for us to blow up our own ships to see what happens.
Given that the Constitution-Bs are literally brand new hulls, I strongly suspect they'll still be around and structurally intact in the TNG era, if they're well maintained and not abused. Though there may be problems with specific parts that were reused from the Constitution-As, such as warp nacelles and cores. That may prove to be the class's weak point when it comes to long-term endurance.
The nice thing about Courageous is, while she's been put in the hospital by many people, every last one of them has lived to regret doing so. Like the Syndicate. And House Kortennon. And the Ihrloth. You don't remember the Ihrloth? Exactly.
I KNOW RIGHT?
Now, cast her identical granddaughter wreaking calm, composed revenge in this scene, because the TBG television show replaced Enterprise and took Jolene Blalock to play our favorite orbital phaser strike expert.
To be fair, the Soyuz-class hulls date back to the 2240s and maybe '50s, and were NEVER refitted as far as we can tell.
We don't know how old Cheron is, and there's no mention of a Constitution by that name in the TOS or movie era. Given that she remained in service when all other Constitutions had been retired, it may be that she's one of the last ships of the class to be completed. Or one that never saw intensive service and is in effect 'younger' than other Connies due to being 'lower mileage.'
It's entirely possible that Cheron was commissioned as recently as the mid-2280s, the same vintage as (we have reason to believe) the Enterprise-A. If so, she's actually younger than many of our Mirandas and Constellations, and of the same age as Excelsior: about thirty years. Since we know that Excelsiors were still around and in heavy use as late as the Dominion War, it's conceivable that Cheron will remain active and useful that long herself, although she'll probably be supplanted by higher-performing classes over time.
...
On the other hand, that's a fairly optimistic case.
Firstly, we know that classes remain in Starfleet service for a very long time, up to 80-100 years, but it's not certain that actual hulls last that long; the Mirandas we see tooling around in The Next Generation may well have been built in the 2330s and not in the 2270s, for instance. There's a TNG reference to USS Excelsior being assigned to a task force searching for a missing ship, but that COULD be another ship of the same class (or a later class) named to commemorate the original Excelsior.
Secondly, we can't assume just because Cheron has no canon history in TOS or the 'Kirk' movies that the ship is one of the last Constitutions to be constructed. It's not necessarily true. Cheron could have a history more like that of the original Connie's of Kirk's day, having been constructed in the 2240s or '50s, refitted in the '60s or '70s, and then just... soldiering on... into the present day. In which case, even with an eighty year service life, the ship is nearing the end of her run.
In other words, it's a complete tossup and we honestly can't say how long the ship will last, since she COULD have been built any time between 2245 and 2285 or even later, and since there COULD be examples of 2285-vintage ships being still around in the late 2300s... but then again there might not.
I think TBG canon has established Cheron was named for the last big battle between the Romulans and Federation when the frontier was hot. So that would probably make her younger than Kirk's Enterprise at least.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That big battle was fought when the frontier was so hot, there had never been peace between the Romulans and the races of the Federation- only ominous silence. It was that very battle that led the Romulans to go "GEEZ FINE" and agree to stay over on their side, negotiating via commlink a zone of territory neither side of the war would ever be allowed to enter. They needed a name for it, so they called it... a Neutral Zone.
That was in the 2160s at the latest.
So... I like your style very much, but I don't think we can use that to draw conclusions about the age of the Cheron. Naming a starship Cheron is for the Federation very much like naming a ship Yorktown or Saratoga would be for the United States, and I would not at all be surprised to learn that the Cheron we know today is not the first ship of that name to serve Starfleet.
So I was thinking about the off-hand comments made here and there's a fairly scary reality that the Council powerbrokers are no doubt aware of, to do with the power of the new incoming Council members.Is that not why the Treaty of Gaen was allowed in the first place
The Council before the Gaen ratification was a 42-seat body. What percentage of Council seats change hands in the elections? 20%? 33%? So there might be 8 to 14 seats up for play in a full six year set of election cycles, and of course which seats is not exactly predictable. We've had election surprises. So realistically you might have to invest in 40% to 60% of seats to have a chance of flipping 20% in an election.
On the other hand, we have six members in waiting including Gaen. Gaen (2), Orion (2-3), Caldonia (1 or 2), Risa (1 or 2), Qloathi (at least 2), and Seyek (as many as 3-5). If you count the Firaal separately that would be something like Seyek (at least 2) and Fiiral (1). The Council tracking spreadsheet lists 17 potential worlds with Council seats including Gaen. 15 not including. The estimate could range from 9-15.
What would you rather play for? 9-15 seats in ratifications that are for sure going to have to pick a side, or less than 8-14 seats in elections that are gambles at best. It seems clear to me that the way to gain more seats is to push hard to get your own candidate elected in the new members, while doing a holding pattern at best with the old members.
The situation seems unprecedented in Earth democratic history as far as I know; very large populations are gaining suffrage, but will vote as unified blocks and in ways that are different to the existing voting blocks, with entirely different issues in different astropolitical senses.
The strangest thing is this new electoral fact seems to have caught the Expansionists by surprise, because every political maneuver we've seen wrt new members has been Development outmaneuvering them to gain new political allies.
e: And to make it even more interesting, this situation continues... forever. Well, not forever, but for a long time. As long as we keep gaining affiliates, we keep on giving an incentive to fight for their Council seats. After the rimward block ratifies, we'll have the coreward one. Only once the Council grows large enough that 2-3 seats are no longer influential will this cease.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
You're right.
I suspect the Expansionists are getting the hang of this, or at least will have a relatively easy time securing a bit of leverage with some of the new incoming members. The Orions are soooo Development/Mercantile, of course, but the Caldonians are something of a wildcard. The Qloathi and (looking further down the road) the Honiani are soooo Expansionist. The Seyek aren't especially Expansionist and on the whole I suspect their natural inclinations are pretty 'balanced' among the major parties, but the fact that they're right on the front lines with Cardassia is likely to make them strongly pro-Starfleet, which will tend to push them in favor of Expansionist/Hawk leanings.
I suspect the Expansionists are getting the hang of this, or at least will have a relatively easy time securing a bit of leverage with some of the new incoming members. The Orions are soooo Development/Mercantile, of course, but the Caldonians are something of a wildcard. The Qloathi and (looking further down the road) the Honiani are soooo Expansionist. The Seyek aren't especially Expansionist and on the whole I suspect their natural inclinations are pretty 'balanced' among the major parties, but the fact that they're right on the front lines with Cardassia is likely to make them strongly pro-Starfleet, which will tend to push them in favor of Expansionist/Hawk leanings.
I don't think many people make the vote Expansionist -> supports Starfleet connection who aren't in Starfleet, though. It's not obvious from the perspective of an ordinary citizen. I would expect the Seyek to be a Hawk/Development split with the Fiiral as a wild card. They might even go Pacifist.
e: Also, you forget Risa, who will definitely go Pacifist.
e: Also, you forget Risa, who will definitely go Pacifist.
A lot of us quest voters are, true. I do like our Pacifist party. They have been good to our causes, and good to the Federation.
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Except when they get in our way.
Been binging on Enterprise, aparantly Vulcans being Pacifists is all Archer's fault. The Vulcans were downright Romulan in mentality before Archer discovered the true teachings of Surak...
The flipside might be that while the Development is using their time in power to grab as many new seats as they can, the Expansionists might be pushing their cause among older members. We could see internal trends go Expansionist even as external ones go Development, as the internal older members aren't feeling nearly as much pressure these days as they did in the past when every conflict, every economic squeeze, was right next door, right on their border. Can these old members still build upwards or are we going to start seeing pressure to expand again? Even United Earth wanted in on the GBZ.
Also, the generation who grew up in the days of Kirk is becoming influential. The generation who grew up in the early days of this quest is reaching voting age. Even the middle Khitomer generation, even despite the fallout from the near-coup, enjoyed peace with the Klingons and then peace with the Romulans within their memory. I would not be surprised if we had three generations in the older members that lean Expansionist -> Pacifist -> Expansionist coming into power right now.
All the episodes that dealt with the Vulcan-Andorian feud were probably my favorite parts of Enterprise.
Did not so much like Archer and the whole plot with recovering the teachings of Surak, but eh, can't be perfect.
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AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And in many cases literally were Romulan!
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
Fixed that for you.
I've been thinking... The presence of the Drone Ships actually explains why no Romulan corpses were recovered from starship wreckage during the Federation-Romulan War.
They probably fought the war exclusively via Drone Ships using the telepathic Remans as pilots.
They probably fought the war exclusively via Drone Ships using the telepathic Remans as pilots.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Or they just had good self-destructs. I mean let's face it, you do an M/AM warp core kablooie, there's not going to much left of the hull, let alone the squishy things inside it.
Yeah, but that's the boring explanation!