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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Simon_Jester said:
Also, the Klingons had a long time to get VERY GOOD at resisting any attempt by our spies to penetrate their space, and they probably kept at it after Khitomer.
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This actually still worries me when it comes to the biophage issue.

I'd like to think that the bit we saw last quarter(?) was just a fluke, but IIRC, the initial biophage event started the same way. @OneirosTheWriter specifically told us that we had gotten lucky in our captains logs and found it early.
 
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I have a sneaking suspicion that there are errors or balance oversights with the Starbase Repair chain (and with the Starbase Design techs in general as the tree seems extremely bland and unfinished), but Oneiros has remained silent on the issue so it's hard to say. I am surprised that we haven't had experience gained due to doing minor repairs at Starbase during many conflicts.
 
Simon_Jester said:
We may have a LOT of ships in the hospital all at once after a truly major battle. With the Licori War we could potentially decide to stop pushing it at any time, knowing that we could rotate a fresh fleet in to keep hammering them or pause for a few months. Against the Cardassians, we have no such luxury.

Given that we seem to be banned from getting a Klingon shipbuilding report, it's very possible that they have entire shipyards we know literally nothing about. In which case it might take quite a while for us to even learn about any ships the Klingons build until we physically see them.

Also, the Klingons had a long time to get VERY GOOD at resisting any attempt by our spies to penetrate their space, and they probably kept at it after Khitomer.
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It's probably a lot more expensive for us to send spies into Klingon territory than say the Romulans. To get a Romulan spy, all you need to do is surgically remove the stick from a Vulcan's ass.
 
Potential tech tree issues include:
- The Starbase Repair chain costs and effects, which may or may not be wrongly tiered.
- The lack of T1, T2, and T3 onboard industry parts.
- Offensive Doctrine, which hasn't been put onto the research page yet.
- The ejection parts aren't listed. They were listed under the antimatter safety techs in propulsion for a while and those currently mostly don't do anything so that's almost certainly just an editing mistake.
- On a similar note, we have unlocked T2 Ejection and it hasn't made it's way onto the design sheet.
- Higher tier sublight motion projects don't list the impulse engines they are obviously supposed to unlock.
- Unlocking T3 injectors is mentioned under both core efficiency and power, the latter obviously a mistake.
- Some projects list the wrong tier of a part being unlocked like 2320s Xenoarchitecture listed as unlocking T2 diplo parts (again) and the mistake carrying on to higher tiers.
- Many higher tier techs still list effects for the old design sheet.
- Some leads to listings are incompatible with the prereqs listings though usually it's possible to figure out what was meant.
- Some descriptions are missing or have editing mistakes from copy-pasting.
- The bonus progress to decisive battle is still missing (I usually don't check whether progress from the result page has been properly transcribed and just treat the result page as the canonical place for progress on currently ongoing techs, but for event bonuses to currently inactive techs the progress listed on the research page is actually important).


Any additions for those familiar with it?
e: Added Nix's list.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
Just noticed that 2310s and 2320s SBD Repair seem to have identical effects, but don't appear to stack. @OneirosTheWriter , could you take a quick look and rework/reword them?
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It takes forever and a half. About the entire length of the quest so far. If we had started in our very first research update, we might be done this coming one.
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As far as I'm aware, Oneiros hasn't said anything in regards to Starbase Repair.

Every time we ask him about the topic, he goes mum.

Forgothrax said:
I have a sneaking suspicion that there are errors or balance oversights with the Starbase Repair chain (and with the Starbase Design techs in general as the tree seems extremely bland and unfinished), but Oneiros has remained silent on the issue so it's hard to say. I am surprised that we haven't had experience gained due to doing minor repairs at Starbase during many conflicts.
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Very Silent.
 
As long as we don't neglect the Klingon-Romulan War or our rimward frontier, I'm okay with that.

pbluekan said:
This actually still worries me when it comes to the biophage issue.

I'd like to think that the bit we saw last quarter(?) was just a fluke, but IIRC, the initial biophage event started the same way. @OneirosTheWriter specifically told us that we had gotten lucky in our captains logs and found it early.
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Uh... what are you talking about?

I mean, if you're just worried in general about the Biophage fine, but that doesn't really have anything to do with how easy or hard it is for us to spy on the Klingons and learn about their shipbuilding.

Nervos Belli said:
It's probably a lot more expensive for us to send spies into Klingon territory than say the Romulans. To get a Romulan spy, all you need to do is surgically remove the stick from a Vulcan's ass.
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The flip side is that the Klingons seem (SEEM) to be a bit less centralized and quite a bit more of an 'open society.' There's no Klingon equivalent of the Tal Shiar. Klingons are more likely to get away with asserting "I'm this person with this background" and not be challenged on it. And so on. Furthermore, we know there are other species within the Klingon Empire in addition to the Klingons themselves, and members of those species can be suborned.

All in all I'd expect the Romulans to be harder targets in general, but for the Klingons to have specifically ramped up their anti-Federation security over the years pre-Khitomer. Though it's a fair point that if we can get intel on the Romulans, why not the Klingons? It may just be something unique about Klingon shipyards being especially remote or distributed or strange that prevents us from knowing what they get up to.
 
Likely they're not centrally controlled. Some random clan in the ass end of Ass Nebula can operate a 500kt berth and no one would know about it, not even after they showed up to the muster of the fleet with 6 Birds of Prey, because who knows where they got those. That probably goes all the way up to the biggest berths, after all, what better way to show up your rivals than to wave a new cruiser or battleship in their face. Competition between factions may mean they cloak and dagger against each other, accidentally hiding the same things from us too.

e: I'm sorry, the BoP is 30kt. That's crazy. You could build them from a 1990s commercial drydock on a planet. Or the 2200s Klingon equivalent.
e2: More like a 1930s drydock.
 
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Briefvoice said:
I'm not opposed to a Rinward border focused report, but I'm not sure how to do it. Something specifically about the Lecarre? You got anything in mind?
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The Dawiar.

We have at least some minimal ability to communicate with them directly or by proxy, they're surrounded by our listening posts, and they're close enough to our space and technologically unsophisticated so our signals intelligence SHOULD work rather well on them.

Frankly, I'm very interested in Dawiar diplomatic posture, because we have reason to speculate that they are the most disaffected Ashalla Pact member except for certain sub-factions of the Sydraxians. We know that five or seven years ago the Cardassians were actively lying to the Dawiar and utterly disrespecting and disregarding them in a crisis, and we know the Dawiar are a stubborn species that is unlikely to be happy with the restrictions the Treaty of Celos places on their dealings with their neighbors.

Getting some information about them might shake loose some interesting diplomatic options for the medium term future.
 
Something like this?

- Cardassian Fleet Strength
- Romulan Fleet Strength
- ISC Diplomatic Posture
- Dawiar Diplomatic Posture
- Yrillian Diplomatic Posture
- Klingon/Romulan War Update
- One of Cardy Shipyard, Cardy Tactics, a ship report, or a GBZ report

Cardassian Shipyard Report would be necessary next year in this conception.
 
Simon_Jester said:
As long as we don't neglect the Klingon-Romulan War or our rimward frontier, I'm okay with that.

Uh... what are you talking about?

I mean, if you're just worried in general about the Biophage fine, but that doesn't really have anything to do with how easy or hard it is for us to spy on the Klingons and learn about their shipbuilding.

The flip side is that the Klingons seem (SEEM) to be a bit less centralized and quite a bit more of an 'open society.' There's no Klingon equivalent of the Tal Shiar. Klingons are more likely to get away with asserting "I'm this person with this background" and not be challenged on it. And so on. Furthermore, we know there are other species within the Klingon Empire in addition to the Klingons themselves, and members of those species can be suborned.

All in all I'd expect the Romulans to be harder targets in general, but for the Klingons to have specifically ramped up their anti-Federation security over the years pre-Khitomer. Though it's a fair point that if we can get intel on the Romulans, why not the Klingons? It may just be something unique about Klingon shipyards being especially remote or distributed or strange that prevents us from knowing what they get up to.
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I don't think it's a big thing, but the Klingons do have an intelligence service. I watched the Trials and Tribble-ations episode of DS9 recently, and the actions of a disgraced former Klingon Intelligence officer drives the plot. Granted said service won't be anything like the Tal Shiar or Obsidian order in terms of power and control over the state, but it does exist.
 
A reminder of how far we have come:

The first ship building post I can find:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Active Starfleet Shipyards
San Francisco Fleet Yards - one (1) large 3mt Berth, two (2) small 1mt Berths
40 Eridani A Shipyards [Vulcan] - two (2) small 1mt Berths

Current Resource Stockpile
Bulk Industrial Resources: 555br
Special Industrial Resources: 380sr
Political Will: 50pp
Research Points: 35rp

Current Personnel Pool
Standard Starfleet: 13.25 Officer, 24.25 Enlisted, 13.25 Techs
Explorer Corps: 5 Officer, 7 Enlisted, 5 Techs
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Compared with the most recent:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Active Starfleet Shipyards
San Francisco Fleet Yards - one (1) large 3mt Berth, two (2) small 1mt Berths
40 Eridani A Shipyards [Vulcan] - two (2) large 3mt Berths, two (2) small 1mt Berths
Ana Font Shipyard [Tellar] - one (1) large 2.5mt Berth, one (1) small 1mt Berth
Lor'Vela Orbital Construction Facility [Andor] - one (1) large 2.5mt Berth, one (1) small 1mt Berth
Utopia Planitia Shipyard - three (3) large 3mt Berths, three (3) small, 1mt Berths
Betazed Starfleet Shipyard - two (2) small 1mt Berth

Current Resource Stockpile
1248 Bulk Resources
638 Special Resources
394 Political Will
295 Research Points

Current Personnel Pool
Standard Starfleet: 12.35 Officer, 20.7 Enlisted, 28 Techs
Explorer Corps: 13.75 Officer, 13.5 Enlisted, 13.95 Techs
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prometheus110 said:
I don't think it's a big thing, but the Klingons do have an intelligence service. I watched the Trials and Tribble-ations episode of DS9 recently, and the actions of a disgraced former Klingon Intelligence officer drives the plot. Granted said service won't be anything like the Tal Shiar or Obsidian order in terms of power and control over the state, but it does exist.
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Said Klingon spy was disgraced a hundred years earlier, in the TOS era. Notably, he had been surgically altered to pass for human in order to infiltrate the Federation.

Again, I suspect that compared to the relatively competent espionage arms of the Romulans and Cardassians, by that standard Klingon counter-espionage is relatively weak... but specialized in countering Federation intelligence specifically, at least until the last decade or so.

Night said:
Smaller than a WNT battleship. Honestly given the times we've seen BoPs make atmospheric entry (not just the movies, but also DS9 at least once), is it that surprising they're relatively small?
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As Chris pointed out, in some depictions they're small, but in others they're large. It's ambiguous enough that you can call them whatever size you like, and it's perfectly conceivable to me that the "Mark
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Old Spock would have been proud of the cocked eyebrow you give the politician. "I assure you, Councillor, that the published comments of the Romulans or Cardassians should not be well regarded on these matters."

"Oh, I agree, but this was Vulcan High Command and the Federation Diplomatic Service talking," says the old Andorian battleaxe with a snort.
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It occurs that the joke here about the Vulcans and the FDS has a certain level of irony to it. Romulans masquerading as Vulcans was so common I wouldn't even roll my eyes if it happened in a ST episode, doubtless the same in-universe, and in-universe FDS personnel have actually been replaced by Cardassian (proxy) agents. I suspect that the Councillor and Oneiros both are having us on at a second level to the actual exchange.

e: Or maybe I'm too dense and I was supposed to pick up on this the first time I read it.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Said Klingon spy was disgraced a hundred years earlier, in the TOS era. Notably, he had been surgically altered to pass for human in order to infiltrate the Federation.

Again, I suspect that compared to the relatively competent espionage arms of the Romulans and Cardassians, by that standard Klingon counter-espionage is relatively weak... but specialized in countering Federation intelligence specifically, at least until the last decade or so.
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So? They're unlikely to cease having an intelligence service when they're bordered by an empire whose shtick is basically spying on people just because they allied the Federation.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Potential tech tree issues include:
- The Starbase Repair chain costs and effects, which may or may not be wrongly tiered.
- The lack of T1, T2, and T3 onboard industry parts.
- Offensive Doctrine, which hasn't been put onto the research page yet.

Any additions for those familiar with it?
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A bunch, but most not quite as important as those.

For instance:
  • The ejection parts aren't listed. They were listed under the antimatter safety techs in propulsion for a while and those currently mostly don't do anything so that's almost certainly just an editing mistake.
  • Likewise higher tier sublight motion projects don't list the impulse engines they are obviously supposed to unlock.
  • Unlocking T3 injectors is mentioned under both core efficiency and power, the latter obviously a mistake.
  • Some projects list the wrong tier of a part being unlocked like 2320s Xenoarchitecture listed as unlocking T2 diplo parts (again) and the mistake carrying on to higher tiers.
  • Many higher tier techs still list effects for the old design sheet.
  • Some leads to listings are incompatible with the prereqs listings though usually it's possible to figure out what was meant.
  • Some descriptions are missing or have editing mistakes from copy-pasting.
  • The bonus progress to decisive battle is still missing (I usually don't check whether progress from the result page has been properly transcribed and just treat the result page as the canonical place for progress on currently ongoing techs, but for event bonuses to currently inactive techs the progress listed on the research page is actually important).
 
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So, some thoughts on the Shrantet starbase.

Does anyone else remember that Sulu himself didn't favor a starbase here 4 years ago? That strategically, a Tipperary starbase would make more sense?

OneirosTheWriter said:
"Yes, Jameel. I know there's been a lot of agitation on Shrantet to their local Council member of late, and they're annoyed that the Expansionists haven't proposed to Starfleet that a Starbase be built there. Candidate zh'Chevyth has been campaigning suggesting that she will raise that topic."

"Okay, a new round of returns have come in and the Hawks lead in Shrantet is increasing quickly. But also the Pacifists may lose the seat of Andoria ... but not in the expected direction. Tyrak, any light you can shed on this?"

"Yes, this one is taking us all by surprise, Jameel. Andoria was a very shaky seat for the Pacifists, their most vulnerable Council seat during this round of elections. But it was expected that the Expansionists would mount the challenge. Instead ch'Galleth, a Development faction candidate, is taking the lead, and we may have a boilover here."

Hikaru Sulu shakes his head. "What sense does it make to build a Starbase at Shrantet when we don't yet have one at Tipperary?"
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Now, his opinion might have changed since 4 years ago. But the only realistic reason I can think of that would change his opinion would be that we intend to build a starbase at Caldonia in the future, and a Tipperary starbase would be too close to Caldonia as to make such a starbase inefficient.

So I'm fine if we vote (aka Sulu decides) to build a Shantet starbase, as long as we commit to building a Caldonia starbase later.
 
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