I suspect the best we can do while sticking to our principles would be to anonymously spread the info we have, in particular the apparent underhanded methods the Bene are using (assassination, sabotage, terrorism). Maybe tip rival houses off to potential Romulan/Bene meetings.
This could backfire, scaring minor houses into the Bene camp, but I don't see a viable alternative.
 
It's a matter of not asking for anything else and not treating them like a client as some seem to be.

We don't own them and if our price for stability and power is far less than the Romulan price for the same we have a good shot at it.
That's a HARD DC check for the FDS ... but better than other alternatives.
 
If nothing else we can make a show of force and park a TF on Bene holdings, like their capital world.

You know, like those TFs that ate 3 major fleets between them already?


Doing some diplomatic skullduggery to convince the Bene to support house Tartresis or vice versa and in a way that the Romulans won't be able to take (public) offense would be the better option though.
 
Now that we've accomplished our war aims we CANNOT. CANNOT. use force in any manner that even slightly looks offensive.

If we do everything falls apart. The pacifists fucking revolt, the developmentalists also revolt (why the fuck do they want to get stuck in on an occupation after mission accomplished?). Everyone from Sousa on down through Eaton, Ka'sharren and Mrr'shan get painted with this imperialist brush thats going to be poison to their careers. The Romulans get to smugly talk about how hypocritical we are as our foriegn diplomacy is rendered impotent at a stroke because no one can trust us anymore... Not since we kicked over a neighbour with some lame excuse and then used military force to impose a new, friendly, regime. The Romulans would be more morally pure here (I am 100% honest. Behind the scenes help to a friendly contact is 1000% better than "FUCK YOU. OUR MAN IS IN CHARGE. WHY?!?! THESE SHIPS ARE WHY. NOW BOW BEFORE THE BARREL OF A PHASER".) and the Cardassian faith in hard men making hard choices while hard will be fully satisfied as our progress with their clients drops off a cliff.

It's the high road or NO road here.
 
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Now that we've accomplished our war aims we CANNOT. CANNOT. use force in any manner that even slightly looks offensive.

If we do everything falls apart. The pacifists fucking revolt, the developmentalists also revolt (why the fuck do they want to get stuck in on an occupation after mission accomplished?). Everyone from Sousa on down through Eaton, Ka'sharren and Mrr'shan get painted with this imperialist brush thats going to be poison to their careers. The Romulans get to smugly talk about hoe hypocritical we are as our foriegn diplomacy is rendered impotent at a stroke because no one can trust us anymore... Not since we kicked over a neighbour with some lame excuse and then used military force to impose a new, friendly, regime. The Romulans would be more morally pure here and Cardassian faith in hard men making hard choices while will be fully satisfied as our progress with their clients drops off a cliff.

It's the high road or NO road here.

I mean, they're already preparing for an occupation of Gammon though. Like, actual boots on the ground on a world with a population of half a billion.

I think we can use military force as long as it is used in ways that correspond to the situation. Like, a blockade would be perfect. And we actually have an excuse to perform arms inspections, because we're worried about mentat weapons, but we can add other arms to the restricted list too and everyone will laugh when the Romulans complain.
 
Now that we've accomplished our war aims we CANNOT. CANNOT. use force in any manner that even slightly looks offensive.

If we do everything falls apart. The pacifists fucking revolt, the developmentalists also revolt (why the fuck do they want to get stuck in on an occupation after mission accomplished?). Everyone from Sousa on down through Eaton, Ka'sharren and Mrr'shan get painted with this imperialist brush thats going to be poison to their careers. The Romulans get to smugly talk about how hypocritical we are as our foriegn diplomacy is rendered impotent at a stroke because no one can trust us anymore... Not since we kicked over a neighbour with some lame excuse and then used military force to impose a new, friendly, regime. The Romulans would be more morally pure here (I am 100% honest. Behind the scenes help to a friendly contact is 1000% better than "FUCK YOU. OUR MAN IS IN CHARGE. WHY?!?! THESE SHIPS ARE WHY. NOW BOW BEFORE THE BARREL OF A PHASER".) and the Cardassian faith in hard men making hard choices while hard will be fully satisfied as our progress with their clients drops off a cliff.

It's the high road or NO road here.

I'm on roughly the same wavelength, but to play devil's advocate:
While we have secured the main offenders, the Kortonnen and Ix are not the only houses to create Mentats. The Causus Belli has only been mostly satisfied.

I do agree that diplomacy and information should be our coup de grace, though. Air the Bene's dirty laundry, shine a light on their manipulations, interfere with their covert ops. Do so discretely so that we don't become a focal point.
 
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I will oppose any attempt to turn this into a war of regime change. Doing so would destroy any pretense of moral superiority we have.
 
It's way too early for any Yan-Ros to even be in Starfleet. They only became affiliates in 2313.Q3... less than two years ago! No Yan-Ros have even made it through the Academy yet.
Well shit I'm going to have to do something about Liacross then.

...Then again, we're getting crew income from them, right? I suppose it's possible some of them did a year or two of advanced study and could have joined up at a slightly higher rank.
 
You're about half a year too late. One of the premises that came out of the diplomatic summit was that we'd be able to work with a new post-war regime.

No, we tried to make contacts with some of the more reasonable houses, but we haven't supported anyone's bid for the throne. If the Emperor was still alive I'd be pushing to negotiate with him, and I'll push to negotiate with whoever wins the current struggle. If Tartresis fails and Bene becomes the dominant house, so be it.
 
You know, rather than attempting to solve this like a proxy influence war, why not take our issues to the Romulans directly? We already know that the Tal'Shiar is acting weirdly considering the Empire's rising relationship with the Federation. We also know that the Tal'Shiar has almost complete autonomy outside of the Continuation Comittee. Maybe they're doing a solo ride on this? Send a message to Romulus, tell them how We Are Not Amused about this shit.

They know that if they pull too much shit, we might also decide to pull some shit of our own. Like for example looking away when a Klingon Wolfpack is attempting to circumvent the frontlines by clipping through Federation territory into the neutral zone.

Before putting on our cloaks and pulling our daggers, how about we just kindly ask the Romulans to stop? Doesn't hurt and still keeps all our options open.
 
You know, rather than attempting to solve this like a proxy influence war, why not take our issues to the Romulans directly? We already know that the Tal'Shiar is acting weirdly considering the Empire's rising relationship with the Federation. We also know that the Tal'Shiar has almost complete autonomy outside of the Continuation Comittee. Maybe they're doing a solo ride on this? Send a message to Romulus, tell them how We Are Not Amused about this shit.

They know that if they pull too much shit, we might also decide to pull some shit of our own. Like for example looking away when a Klingon Wolfpack is attempting to circumvent the frontlines by clipping through Federation territory into the neutral zone.

Before putting on our cloaks and pulling our daggers, how about we just kindly ask the Romulans to stop? Doesn't hurt and still keeps all our options open.

And how exactly would you justify that it is fine if we mess in the succession of foreign, sovereign nations (that border the Romulan Empire far more than the Federation) but not okay if the Romulans themselves do it? How exactly do you guys expect the Romulans (and our own population) will react to such a thing? With what justification do you claim that this is our area of influence and not the Romulans when they are much nearer and are the ones threatened to get surrounded by the federation and Klingons, especially with us never saying anything in that direction? I highly doubt that the RE is ready to acknowledge the supremacy of the Federation.

Especially since our casus belli and mandate (as in the thing authorizing Starfleet to conduct this aggressive war) is of a completely different nature and our political system and modus operandi means we can ill afford to lose the morale high ground given by it (and the Roms know that).

And as I said before - the moment you start threatening to interfere in the Klingon-Romulan war on side of either party you practically force the other party to look for other allies which in the most likely case means the Cardassians...
 
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Okay. Guys. Lets ask ourselves a question here.

Is there any reason for us to oppose a Bene ascension besides the fact that the Romulans want it and therefore we need to be against it on principle?

Furthermore, is there anything that would stop the Romulans from just courting the Tartesis instead, if suddenly they pulled ahead?
 
And how exactly would you justify that it is fine if we mess in the succession of foreign, sovereign nations (that border the Romulan Empire far more than the Federation) but not okay if the Romulans themselves do it? How exactly do you guys expect the Romulans (and our own population) will react to such a thing? With what justification do you claim that this is our area of influence and not the Romulans when they are much nearer and are the ones threatened to get surrounded by the federation and Klingons, especially with us never saying anything in that direction? I highly doubt that the RE is ready to acknowledge the supremacy of the Federation.

If I wanted to justify it in language the Romulans would understand, I'd probably point out that we did the hard work of going in and kicking over the anthill, and it's fucking precious they think they can sneak in and dictate the terms of the peace in secret. How many warships did they contribute to the war?
 
Okay. Guys. Lets ask ourselves a question here.

Is there any reason for us to oppose a Bene ascension besides the fact that the Romulans want it and therefore we need to be against it on principle?

Our xenopsychologists seem to feel that the Tartresis are most closely aligned with Federation values and would make for better long term neighbors. We care for the same reason we care which new faction of the Sydraxian government takes power.

Furthermore, is there anything that would stop the Romulans from just courting the Tartesis instead, if suddenly they pulled ahead?

They don't need the Romulans like the Bene do. The Romulans have a distinct interest in the new Emperor owing their throne to the Romulan Star Empire.
 
Well shit I'm going to have to do something about Liacross then.

...Then again, we're getting crew income from them, right? I suppose it's possible some of them did a year or two of advanced study and could have joined up at a slightly higher rank.

They've given us .25 O / .25 E / .25 T since joining, so Liacross would be 1 out of about thirty-something Yan-Ros serving on all Starfleet ships, and very likely the only Yan-Ros in the entire Explorer Corps.

Not impossible I suppose, but very much highly unique.
 
Well shit I'm going to have to do something about Liacross then.

...Then again, we're getting crew income from them, right? I suppose it's possible some of them did a year or two of advanced study and could have joined up at a slightly higher rank.
Transfer officer or exchange officer?
 
Late, but:

Speaking of, weird theory I kind of hinted at in the last omake -- I've been thinking, what if Licori are Orions from a forgotten colony? They're green, they love mines, they're in the general neighbourhood, they had some sort of calamity in the past, and they've used brainwashing before (and were going to attempt it on Chad.)
So apart from Tal Shiar involvement we could also be looking at Syndicate remnants? Lovely.

 
To be fair, that's our ship crew income; Starfleet is larger than the ships themselves. Someone like Anne Usha, for instance, would literally have not shown up in that, as her career track is entirely dirtside.

(Hell, even looking at the ships, Starfleet Academy probably also helps train crews for the ships of Starfleet Engineering Command and Starfleet Logistics Command and Starfleet Medical Command and Starfleet Colony Command and so on...)

Good point.

Let's double that number to 120 crew/year to cover auxiliaries. That's still a reasonable number, but I think the training fleet is starting to reach 100% usage.

Suffice to say that if no other new frigate was designed between the time Soyuz was laid down and the time Miranda was laid down, then by the late 2270s Starfleet must have been really hurting for frigates. Likewise for cruisers unless the Rangers filled that role.

It's not so obvious that this makes a difference if we use 2300-era ship stats (by which standard there's not a lot of room for improvement between a Soyuz and a Miranda). But if we use statlines normalized to, say, 2250 (by which standards a stock Connie is a big impressive ship that was to them what the Excelsiors were to us in 2300)... there's likely to be a bigger gap.

This is something I explored when trying to rough out statlines for the "2235 game" idea I've been playing with. Basically, I started by roughly doubling everything's stats, except for Defense which is... complicated. I rounded up or down to fit some mathematical formulae I set up in an attempt for balance. The idea being that people were easier to impress back then; a "minimal science suite" corresponding to S1 in those days would be a veritable S0 now, whereas something like a Centaur-A would be an impressive ship with S5 to S7 by their standards- they couldn't duplicate its capabilities without building a dedicated science vessel.

So for them, the Soyuz-class is a modern escort with a statline of...

[checks]

C3 S2 H2 L2 P1 D3.

By contrast, a Ranger has C4 S4 H3 L3 P4 D4

Of course, Starfleet of that era has its own obsolete 'dog' ships, including classes that are refits of what the member worlds were using at the founding of the Federation. But things are starting to look up.

Eh. I'd imagine that they could refit the Soyuz. Personally, I prefer my "Zumwalt" theory, where the Soyuzes are the 2350s version of the Arleigh Burke, except a lot older. Given that flight III production could stretch to 2031, having a couple Soyuzes now left over from the final flight isn't that big of a stretch.

Yeah, but the Gaeni get to build our ships once they're ratified. So we'll see Keplers for sure operating under their doctrine, and may even see an Ambassador doing that eventually.
> Ambassador
> Gaeni

... what have we done ...

Irregular Ops and Special Projects
Ah. So that's what those two offices were called.
 
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