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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
Having a Romulan client between us and the Ked Peddah may turn into quite a large issue ten years down the line. Not to mention @10ebbor10 's excellent point about an alliance between the masters of the cloak and the people who blow up stars.
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Eh, I think that pretty much any spacefaring race in Star Trek can develop that technology if it really wishes to - the problem with the Licori was simply how willing they seemed to employ it (which I personally still dispute but oh well that doesn't matter now) and even if we get the Tarseni on the throne I doubt we will be able to completely prevent contact between the bene and the romulans so anything in that direction seems doomed to fail...

More importantly is in my eyes is that Starfleet has dangerously little justification for doing much in that direction - our whole casus belli is preventing dangerous mentat experiments and not installing a pro-Federation government. We start doing that and I would suspect support for this already unpopular war will crash hard once/if it becomes public knowledge. We are already walking the knifes edge when it comes to messing with pro-Cardassian client states but there at least we have a clear hostility towards the Federation while the Romulans have shown remarkable willing to work together in the last few years (and while the old federation members might still harbour some ill-will from the previous war most of the federation has joined after it was "long" over.).

Open opposition seems in my eyes politically nearly impossible and while we could like start a covert war I have wonder if that5 is the best use of our resources/attention considering all the other issues we have to deal with. If it were up to me I would make a deal with the Bene (who should be happy to accept such a thing since I doubt they are looking forward to be under the total control of the romulans) which should be enough to bring this conflict to a quick end - freeing our resources for more important matters.

And not only can we easily enough access the Kep Paddah via the Laio/northern border of the Licori but I also find it very hypocritical that we basically want to forbid every other race from doing what we are doing /expanding our influence/connections.
 
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So thoughts on my part; we are seeing the ongoing costs of our wars in the missing of events, which results in member fleets responding and without Starfleets effectiveness. This costs us political power, and a not inconsiderable amount of it.

Also, we need to consider supporting house Tartresis and either covertly assisting the Klingon Empire or publicly demanding the Romulans stop supporting house Bene for fear of reprisals.

We can't support another war, but a Starfleet backed Klingon military would be troublesome for the Romulans. Starfleet is good at the sensors and analysis game, so even without fighting directly it'd be a lot harder to effectively hide from the otherwise rather force focused Klingon fleets. I mean, fine and dandy that the Klingons can't find your bases on their own, but it's hard to hide when someone tells the Klingons exactly where to look.

Erandil said:
More importantly is in my eyes is that Starfleet has dangerously little justification for doing much in that direction - our whole casus belli is preventing dangerous mentat experiments and not installing a pro-Federation government. We start doing that and I would suspect support for this already unpopular war will crash hard once/if it becomes public knowledge. We are already walking the knifes edge when it comes to messing with pro-Cardassian client states but there at least we have a clear hostility towards the Federation while the Romulans have shown remarkable willing to work together in the last few years (and while the old federation members might still harbour some ill-will from the previous war most of the federation has joined after it was "long" over.).
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Depends on if we can sell the public on the idea that the Romulans would use Licori mentats as deniable 'rogue elements' in their subterfuge. That would not be stopping dangerous mentat experiments, that'd be aiming those experiments right at everyone the Romulans believe they should rule over.

Which is everyone.
 
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Erandil said:
More importantly is in my eyes is that Starfleet has dangerously little justification for doing much in that direction - our whole casus belli is preventing dangerous mentat experiments and not installing a pro-Federation government. We start doing that and I would suspect support for this already unpopular war will crash hard once/if it becomes public knowledge. We are already walking the knifes edge when it comes to messing with pro-Cardassian client states but there at least we have a clear hostility towards the Federation while the Romulans have shown remarkable willing to work together in the last few years (and while the old federation members might still harbour some ill-will from the previous war most of the federation has joined after it was "long" over.)
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I think you are seriously under-estimating what a pain in the side it is to be bordered by an affiliate of a hostile foreign power. And yes, the Romulans are hostile. They don't want to fight us now, but that's a strategic decision. Don't believe for a minute that there aren't still powerful factions in the Romulan Senate who dream of re-taking Vulcan.

A Romulan-dominated Arcadian empire will be a tool to poke the Federation in the side whenever the Romulans think it's useful.
 
Hazard said:
So thoughts on my part; we are seeing the ongoing costs of our wars in the missing of events, which results in member fleets responding and without Starfleets effectiveness. This costs us political power, and a not inconsiderable amount of it.

Also, we need to consider supporting house Tartresis and either covertly assisting the Klingon Empire or publicly demanding the Romulans stop supporting house Bene for fear of reprisals.

We can't support another war, but a Starfleet backed Klingon military would be troublesome for the Romulans. Starfleet is good at the sensors and analysis game, so even without fighting directly it'd be a lot harder to effectively hide from the otherwise rather force focused Klingon fleets. I mean, fine and dandy that the Klingons can't find your bases on their own, but it's hard to hide when someone tells the Klingons exactly where to look.



Depends on if we can sell the public on the idea that the Romulans would use Licori mentats as deniable 'rogue elements' in their subterfuge. That would not be stopping dangerous mentat experiments, that'd be aiming those experiments right at everyone the Romulans believe they should rule over.

Which is everyone.
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Why the hell would you want to start a open conflict with yet another galatic superpower right when the Cardassian are starting to significantly expand their shipyards and our president/leadership is already on shaky ground and we are within reach of introducing a new generation of far more capable ships? Do you want the Cardassians and Romulans to ally and start undermining us both? Some covert conflict is fine and dandy but you start even suggesting that we support the Klingons in such a manner and you basically leave the Romulans no chance but to look at our rival for help...

We should bless the stars that this war is happening and do our best to stay out of it since as long as they are busy with each other they aren't planning to invade us the moment our fleets are engaged on the Cardassian front.
 
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We can't really justify supporting House Tartresis, but allowing the Licori to become a Romulan client is unacceptable*. We should work to expose the source of House Bene's support.

*We want the Romulans to join the Federation eventually. Allowing them to gain a new client will only prolong the inevitable.
 
Another angle for us to pursue, if we have a Romulan/Licori summit.

If we have reason to believe that the Romulans have access to solar decay technology, then the Federation will have no choice. We will have to develop a cloaking device, and look into Mutually Assured Destruction weapons of our own (we can probably even grab the solar decay device's plans or researchers, since we've captured Ixara and Gammon). Once that happens, it is almost inevitable that the Klingons will also get their hands on the solar decay or other MAD weapon. Hell, we might even have to share it with them in order to preserve the balance of power in the quadrant.

Do you want that, Romulans? Do you want to be neighbors with two peer powers who can send cloaked ships to detonate your stars as easily as you can theirs?

I didn't think so. So, let's talk.
 
Leila Hann said:
I think the best way to beat the Romulans at their cloak and dagger game is by not playing it at all.

The FDS should invite the Romulans, Bene, and Tartresis to a summit and work out some sort of treaty. We're not really opposed to a pro-Romulan regime for the Licori, as long as the star-destabilizing research is destroyed. The Bene will want to rise to power as smoothly as possible. The Tartresis will want to at least preserve their existing power. The Romulans really want their starkiller to fight the Klingons, but they might settle for other, less dangerous, Licori weapons if it means they don't have to commit forces to helping the Bene.
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I Like that plan. We should try and do it that way. It will get the Licori off our backs and the Romulans can keep an eye on them.
 
MTB said:
Is Genesis a thing that happened? Because if yes, the Federation already got the technology for MAD.
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Honestly, Genesis is so far out of the league of Federation peer technology, and so unique in the timeline, that I've sort of headcannoned that it was made using a one-of-a-kind ancient artifact. Basically the same explanation that Oneiros came up with for the Combat Cloak.

But if that is not the case then yeah, our threat to develop a cloaking device and invest in a Genesis-MAD program has far more teeth.
 
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MTB said:
Is Genesis a thing that happened? Because if yes, the Federation already got the technology for MAD.
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Eh, in my the technology in Star Trek is of such a degree that is seems extremely unbelievable and more than a little contrived if you say that planetscale MAD are something raw/difficult to make. Any species that handles large scale antimatter technology or something comparable to that shouldn't find it difficult to completely erase all life from a planet if it wishes to do so. The only question is deployment and even that doesn't seem to be that difficult considering for example how "easily" we managed to infiltrate a key Licori system (I mean really if that ship could have easily carried a massive bomb instead of troops if one didn't care about civilian casualties) whose defences shouldn't be of much else standard than what we can expect from elsewhere or the danger of suicide shuttles we faced during the biophage crisis. If you want to to destroy the galaxy Star Trek has nearly endless possibilities...

Briefvoice said:
I think you are seriously under-estimating what a pain in the side it is to be bordered by an affiliate of a hostile foreign power. And yes, the Romulans are hostile. They don't want to fight us now, but that's a strategic decision. Don't believe for a minute that there aren't still powerful factions in the Romulan Senate who dream of re-taking Vulcan.

A Romulan-dominated Arcadian empire will be a tool to poke the Federation in the side whenever the Romulans think it's useful.
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And I think you underestimate it would to gather enough public/political support for any significant operation like that considering the current make-up of the council and without that support/guidance/orders Starfleet moves on very shacky legal and morally ground if it does anything major either. I don't dispute that a Federation alligned Arcadian Empire would be far better than Romulan one or that the conflict with the Roms is forever over but I simply don't think the political situation allows for anything major which would however likely be necessary to shift the balance away from house Bene/the Roms.

As a sidenote I personally have little doubt that the Bene will make far from an easy client for the Roms since once they are Emperor the Roms will have far less ability to pressure them into doing their bidding since I see no reason why they wouldn't threaten to for example join the Federation (or the Cardassians depending on the political situation on that part of the galaxy) if the demands became to high/dangerous... With the Roms being busy with the Klingons I don't think they have the resources to install a ironclad regime and without such the Arkadian empire is to big/powerful (at least once it recovers) to be easily cowed by foreign powers/demands.
 
Leila Hann said:
Honestly, Genesis is so far out of the league of Federation peer technology, and so unique in the timeline, that I've sort of headcannoned that it was made using a one-of-a-kind ancient artifact. Basically the same explanation that Oneiros came up with for the Combat Cloak.

But if that is not the case then yeah, our threat to develop a cloaking device and invest in a Genesis-MAD program has far more teeth.
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Nope. Protomatter, and a boy genius. But what was discovered once can be discovered again.
 
Erandil said:
Eh, in my the technology in Star Trek is of such a degree that is seems extremely unbelievable and more than a little contrived if you say that planetscale MAD are something raw/difficult to make. Any species that handles large scale antimatter technology or something comparable to that shouldn't find it difficult to completely erase all life from a planet if it wishes to do so. The only question is deployment and even that doesn't seem to be that difficult considering for example how "easily" we managed to infiltrate a key Licori system (I mean really if that ship could have easily carried a massive bomb instead of troops if one didn't care about civilian casualties) whose defences shouldn't be of much else standard than what we can expect from elsewhere or the danger of suicide shuttles we faced during the biophage crisis. If you want to to destroy the galaxy Star Trek has nearly endless possibilities...



And I think you underestimate it would to gather enough public/political support for any significant operation like that considering the current make-up of the council and without that support/guidance/orders Starfleet moves on very shacky legal and morally ground if it does anything major either. I don't dispute that a Federation alligned Arcadian Empire would be far better than Romulan one or that the conflict with the Roms is forever over but I simply don't think the political situation allows for anything major which would however likely be necessary to shift the balance away from house Bene/the Roms.

As a sidenote I personally have little doubt that the Bene will make far from an easy client for the Roms since once they are Emperor the Roms will have far less ability to pressure them into doing their bidding since I see no reason why they wouldn't threaten to for example join the Federation (or the Cardassians depending on the political situation on that part of the galaxy) if the demands became to high/dangerous... With the Roms being busy with the Klingons I don't think they have the resources to install a ironclad regime and without such the Arkadian empire is to big/powerful (at least once it recovers) to be easily cowed by foreign powers/demands.
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Its pretty clear to me that the main draw for the Bene is short-term Romulan aid in gaining the throne, and that the main draw for the Romulans is a (possibly one-time) payment of mentat weapons.

Its only the last bit that we object to. And even then, only if it includes a weapon on the scale of the solar decay device. If the Romulans are content to buy Anoxa or Iron Dome type technologies, then eh, not worth the trouble of stopping them.
 
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Erandil said:
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And I think you underestimate it would to gather enough public/political support for any significant operation like that considering the current make-up of the council and without that support/guidance/orders Starfleet moves on very shacky legal and morally ground if it does anything major either. I don't dispute that a Federation alligned Arcadian Empire would be far better than Romulan one or that the conflict with the Roms is forever over but I simply don't think the political situation allows for anything major which would however likely be necessary to shift the balance away from house Bene/the Roms.
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And I think you overestimate the level of "significant operation" that would be required here. The Romulans aren't able to toss in a ton of resources. There are no ships or troops supporting the Bene. They're presumably giving the Bene some technology and information. Wouldn't be all that hard for the Federation to match.
 
Briefvoice said:
And I think you overestimate the level of "significant operation" that would be required here. The Romulans aren't able to toss in a ton of resources. There are no ships or troops supporting the Bene. They're presumably giving the Bene some technology and information. Wouldn't be all that hard for the Federation to match.
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Also we are at war, and significant operations are easy to arrange. If we really get annoyed by this behavior then we can invade the Bene home system and set their imperial ambitions on fire along with their governmental buildings and archives.
 
Night said:
Also we are at war, and significant operations are easy to arrange. If we really get annoyed by this behavior then we can invade the Bene home system and set their imperial ambitions on fire along with their governmental buildings and archives.
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No, we cannot, because we'd never get the troops for such a thing.
 
MTB said:
No, we cannot, because we'd never get the troops for such a thing.
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Do you suppose that United Earth really wants more Romulan neighbors than it already has? Never is a very long time. The Licori fleet is broken, and we really don't need much to go anywhere we want and do anything we like at the moment. Admittedly literally setting the Bene's imperial ambitions on fire is an extreme action, but if we make it clear we regard their ascension to the throne as unacceptable and are prepared to do violence to stop it, we're kind of the big kid on the violence doing block in Licori space at the moment, and attention must be paid.
 
Night said:
Also we are at war, and significant operations are easy to arrange. If we really get annoyed by this behavior then we can invade the Bene home system and set their imperial ambitions on fire along with their governmental buildings and archives.
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I'd like to be a little more subtle than that. It won't do the Tartresis any favors to come to power on the backs of such an overt intervention.
 
Briefvoice said:
I'd like to be a little more subtle than that. It won't do the Tartresis any favors to come to power on the backs of such an overt intervention.
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And any intervention we do that is not in the interest of the Romulans is quite likely to get publice interest, because of the info leaked to news networks.
 
Night said:
Do you suppose that United Earth really wants more Romulan neighbors than it already has? Never is a very long time. The Licori fleet is broken, and we really don't need much to go anywhere we want and do anything we like at the moment. Admittedly literally setting the Bene's imperial ambitions on fire is an extreme action, but if we make it clear we regard their ascension to the throne as unacceptable and are prepared to do violence to stop it, we're kind of the big kid on the violence doing block in Licori space at the moment, and attention must be paid.
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You won't get the Council approval for "but if we make it clear we regard their ascension to the throne as unacceptable and are prepared to do violence to stop it". Or the troops.
 
All this Romulan panic.

I'm not very worried. One, Well, what did you think was going to happen? This is normal regular international politics. The Romulans are doing the same sort of thing any government dies, seek to gain friendly governments elsewhere.

The answer to this is simple: what leverage does Romulus have over the Bene? We need to look into that, but I suspect that it's general support and not some special unique thing.

All we have to do is broker a deal to achieve the same ends and the Romulan leverage over the Bene is pretty much decimated.

Even better if we can get the Tartesis on board in some way so that the Bene have legitimate internal stability to rely on. With their puppets able to stand perfectly fine on their own and the Romulans themselves distracted by "FUCK KLINGONS" I think the Licori can maintain true independence.

We should probably find some way to get some minor young Bene onto the throne in a deal that marries her/him off to some other young minor Tartesis noble. Make both houses agree to some sort of power sharing agree moment openly brokered by us.

While the Romulans are offering the difficult path in the dark with a hidden knife in their hand; we can offer a clear, easy, and clean path in the open daylight with a smile.

It will at the very least be tempting enough that we can split Bene acceptance for Romulan aid and cause confusion at a time when the Romulans really can't afford to take their eyes of their Coreward front.

They may simply accept a neutral, independat power in neither sphere with the option to keep playing the game as good enough.
 
AKuz said:
While the Romulans are offering the difficult path in the dark with a hidden knife in their hand; we can offer a clear, easy, and clean path in the open daylight with a smile.

It will at the very least be tempting enough that we can split Bene acceptance for Romulan aid and cause confusion at a time when the Romulans really can't afford to take their eyes of their Coreward front.
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At the moment we are the aggressors in a war the Licori just lost and the Romulans the benefactors that could block the Federation. I don't say it's not doable, but it's certainly not easy.
 
MTB said:
At the moment we are the aggressors in a war the Licori just lost and the Romulans the benefactors that could block the Federation. I don't say it's not doable, but it's certainly not easy.
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It's a matter of not asking for anything else and not treating them like a client as some seem to be.

We don't own them and if our price for stability and power is far less than the Romulan price for the same we have a good shot at it.
 
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