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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Nervos Belli said:
Nowhere did the President or Sousa suggest we'd have to rebuild Licori society.
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Licori society as it existed was unable to restrain the Mentats due to weak central government, and this was part of the information presented to the players so you can be damn sure it was part of the information presented to Sousa! From that, it is absolutely certain she knew we had to destroy and rebuild the Licori central government!

This is all self-delusion on your part.
 
Night said:
Licori society as it existed was unable to restrain the Mentats due to weak central government, and this was part of the information presented to the players so you can be damn sure it was part of the information presented to Sousa! From that, it is absolutely certain she knew we had to destroy and rebuild the Licori central government!

This is all self-delusion on your part.
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Licori society lacked the political willpower, not the capability. The point of invading was to force the government to confront the problem, not to tear them apart and make a new government.

This is all power-fantasies on your part.
 
Nervos Belli said:
As I already pointed out, SWB's account of how things went was patently false. At no point did we encourage or support the Tartresis to overthrow the government. We tried to establish contacts with them so we could negotiate peace easier, but that's very different from trying to put them in power.

I agree our actions have inadvertently led to the Morshadd regime collapsing, but that doesn't mean we have to support a regime change.
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In the literal sense of "regime change" there's going to be one whether we like it or not. "Regime change" doesn't mean "Federation-backed coup." It means "a change of the ruling regime." Since the ruling regime was embodied by one man that we just killed, we changed the regime. The only question is what it changes to, and whether or not we want any buy-in regarding that process given that we're going to be negotiating with the new government.

It's a feudal monarchy, Nervos. The government is one guy, plus his appointees, relatives, and hangers-on. And we just killed the one guy. They didn't have a spare guy to occupy the warm spot his butt left on the throne, which means there's going to be a fight over it now that the warm spot has gone cold.

MAYBE there's some kind of civil service bureaucracy or very subordinate pseudo-legislature, but there's no sovereign entity in a position to speak for the Licori species, nor will there be until a new regime takes power.
 
Simon_Jester said:
In the literal sense of "regime change" there's going to be one whether we like it or not. "Regime change" doesn't mean "Federation-backed coup." It means "a change of the ruling regime." Since the ruling regime was embodied by one man that we just killed, we changed the regime. The only question is what it changes to, and whether or not we want any buy-in regarding that process given that we're going to be negotiating with the new government.

It's a feudal monarchy, Nervos. The government is one guy, plus his appointees, relatives, and hangers-on. And we just killed the one guy. They didn't have a spare guy to occupy the warm spot his butt left on the throne, which means there's going to be a fight over it now that the warm spot has gone cold.

MAYBE there's some kind of civil service bureaucracy or very subordinate pseudo-legislature, but there's no sovereign entity in a position to speak for the Licori species, nor will there be until a new regime takes power.
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Yes, I'm perfectly aware that the regime is going to change. I even said that in the post you quoted. But elimination of the Morshadd emperor was never one of our war goals.


My argument is that we shouldn't be trying to install our preferred candidate, as that goes against both the ideals of the Federation and the stated goals of this war. So long as the resulting Licori state is willing to agree to our terms regarding mentat use, their alignment is not our concern.
 
pheonix89 said:
I don't see the problem with a Gaeni Ambassador-class. The base ship is A. highly reliable and B. designed with the assumption that crack crews will be tweaking them into peaky Ace Customs. So yeah they'll do their usual high-risk science stuff but on a ship where the design assumes people will do things like that.
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Eh.

I'm assuming most of it is joking.


Nervos Belli said:
Yes, I'm perfectly aware that the regime is going to change. I even said that in the post you quoted. But elimination of the Morshadd emperor was never one of our war goals.


My argument is that we shouldn't be trying to install our preferred candidate, as that goes against both the ideals of the Federation and the stated goals of this war. So long as the resulting Licori state is willing to agree to our terms regarding mentat use, their alignment is not our concern.
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Still, at the very least, we should take some action to prevent future assassinations.
 
The obvious solution is to marry individuals from Bene and Tartesis houses and instill that family on the throne. See, now everyone wins!

Except Kortennon but nobody cares about them.
 
Dealing with the Romulan support of the Bene is simple (simple does not mean free of consequence though).

It's mostly a matter of politely reminding the Romulans that we are officially at war with the Arcadian Empire, that any ongoing support of a party we are at war with is unfriendly, and unfriendly actions would require a proportional response. Then it's just a matter of what the Council/FDs consider to be a proportional response.

Other options could be a splintering the Arcadian Empire, trying for a Tartresis dominated corewards polity, and a (likely) Bene dominated rimwards (like Cold War Germany).

My big concern is, as already enunciated by other posters is the combination of WMD + cloak.
 
Nervos Belli said:
Licori society lacked the political willpower, not the capability.
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Okay, so.

OneirosTheWriter said:
From this:
- The Arcadian Empire must be forced to accept terms that establish Federation control over the Mentat program and existing Mentats.
- Either defeat the Arcadian military such that they sue for peace or conquer territory such that they are forced to sue for peace, or orchestrate a changeover in power that would see a power amenable to controls on mentats take charge.

The Arcadian Empire itself is not a strategic war aim. However, it is the gateway to controlling the mentats, and is the outer shell that must be broken through.

Starfleet Tactical:
- Our understanding of the Arcadian Empire is that the Houses Major and Minor each hold considerable autonomy within the Framework of the Empire, even though the Emperor could take any single house to task and destroy them. The Emperor cannot, however, counterbalance all the noble houses.
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That is the first post of the Licori Council Session series.

You are not only deluding yourself, you are a liar. This was the briefing given to Sousa and the President. It explicitly states regime change as a war goal. It also explicitly states that the feudal nature of the Licori government prevents the central government from effectively reigning in the Houses on the Mentats or any other issue in which more than one chooses to oppose them.
 
kyuden said:
Dealing with the Romulan support of the Bene is simple (simple does not mean free of consequence though).

It's mostly a matter of politely reminding the Romulans that we are officially at war with the Arcadian Empire, that any ongoing support of a party we are at war with is unfriendly, and unfriendly actions would require a proportional response. Then it's just a matter of what the Council/FDs consider to be a proportional response.

Other options could be a splintering the Arcadian Empire, trying for a Tartresis dominated corewards polity, and a (likely) Bene dominated rimwards (like Cold War Germany).

My big concern is, as already enunciated by other posters is the combination of WMD + cloak.
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A bird of prey with a photon torpedo is already a WMD + cloak.

The Romulans seeking diplomatic ties with a Licori house is a matter of internal policy for both the Romulans and the Licori. Trying to butt in on it is not worth the headache. So long as the Licori agree to restrain their experiments, I don't care if Tartresis or Bene or even Kortennon are in charge.
 
Optimal outcome - a Tartresis led government that is willing to work with us
Less optimal, but still a success - any Arcadian government that doesn't really like us, but is willing to keep their Mentats under control.
A soft failure - an Arcadian government that signs up with the Romulans - we can work with this, but it is not desirable.
A hard Failure - any Arcadian government that lets the Mentats run free.
 
Nervos Belli said:
A bird of prey with a photon torpedo is already a WMD + cloak.

The Romulans seeking diplomatic ties with a Licori house is a matter of internal policy for both the Romulans and the Licori. Trying to butt in on it is not worth the headache. So long as the Licori agree to restrain their experiments, I don't care if Tartresis or Bene or even Kortennon are in charge.
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It is. The Romulans can't apply too much pressure, now that war has started. And we can make life unpleasant for the Romulans easily.

We have the superior bargaining position. Stuff like this is expected, and is designed to push our limits.

The best response is to give them a friendly notice of potential dissent within the ranks.
 
Night said:
Okay, so.



That is the first post of the Licori Council Session series.

You are not only deluding yourself, you are a liar. This was the briefing given to Sousa and the President. It explicitly states regime change as a war goal. It also explicitly states that the feudal nature of the Licori government prevents the central government from effectively reigning in the Houses on the Mentats or any other issue in which more than one chooses to oppose them.
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None of that contradicts what I said. Like I said, the only reason to oppose a regime is if it will not comply with our demands. Installing a friendly government is not part of that. So long as we believe the Bene and Tartresis are both likely to accept our peace terms, which one wins is immaterial. And yes, the houses can oppose the central government on issues. That's why we targeted the houses most opposed to our demands, to convince all the houses that it was in their interests to comply. None of that means we need to set up a puppet regime.
 
Nervos Belli said:
None of that contradicts what I said.
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or orchestrate a changeover in power regime change

Our understanding of the Arcadian Empire is that the Houses Major and Minor each hold considerable autonomy within the Framework of the Empire, even though the Emperor could take any single house to task and destroy them. weak central government that will need to be changed

The hell it doesn't.

From the very same post:

The Tartresis are probably the House we would be most amenable to claiming the throne from the Imperial House. more regime change
 
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Night said:
or orchestrate a changeover in power regime change

Our understanding of the Arcadian Empire is that the Houses Major and Minor each hold considerable autonomy within the Framework of the Empire, even though the Emperor could take any single house to task and destroy them. weak central government that will need to be changed

The hell it doesn't.
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Since you aren't bothering to read what I said, I'm just going to ignore you.
 
Nervos Belli said:
Since you aren't bothering to read what I said, I'm just going to ignore you.
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Because what you're saying is moving your goalposts. You said "no regime change!" and now you're saying that installing a friendly government instead of keeping the old one is not regime change! No, changing a government is regime change, that's what it means, you're making an argument that's absolute nonsense. I was actually doing you a favor by pretending you weren't arguing in bad faith. If your new argument is that changing governments is not changing governments, then nobody should take it seriously.
 
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It is honestly entirely possible that the civilian government will take the decision on what to do about the Romulan connection out of our hands.

I'm just hoping we don't get a choice between doing something pants-on-head retarded and resigning in protest. This is a terrible time for an Admiralty transition.
 
On the other hand, if anyone can get us out of the hole we've been shoved into in that hypothetical, it'd be Sulu...
 
Nervos Belli said:
A bird of prey with a photon torpedo is already a WMD + cloak.

The Romulans seeking diplomatic ties with a Licori house is a matter of internal policy for both the Romulans and the Licori. Trying to butt in on it is not worth the headache. So long as the Licori agree to restrain their experiments, I don't care if Tartresis or Bene or even Kortennon are in charge.
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The torpedo + cloak is a lot less scary than a blow up a star weapon + cloak. Both are bad, just different degrees of bad.

I don't have any issue with the Romulans seeking diplomatic ties with a Licori house, I do have issue with the Romulans supplying a Licori house with military equipment at a time when we are at war with aforementioned Licori house. That's something we do need to take exception to, to do otherwise sets a precedent that I don't think we can afford.

Additionally I think the Federation will take exception to the methods being used by the Bene to advance their position, assassination is not something (in my opinion) that the Federation would countenance and negotiating with the Bene is a tacit acceptance of their tactics.

I'm not sure what the Romulans goals are here, but they seem to have selected a tactic (that if (when) discovered) is certain to annoy the Federation, and at a time when they can least afford it.
 
kyuden said:
The torpedo + cloak is a lot less scary than a blow up a star weapon + cloak. Both are bad, just different degrees of bad.

I don't have any issue with the Romulans seeking diplomatic ties with a Licori house, I do have issue with the Romulans supplying a Licori house with military equipment at a time when we are at war with aforementioned Licori house. That's something we do need to take exception to, to do otherwise sets a precedent that I don't think we can afford.

Additionally I think the Federation will take exception to the methods being used by the Bene to advance their position, assassination is not something (in my opinion) that the Federation would countenance and negotiating with the Bene is a tacit acceptance of their tactics.

I'm not sure what the Romulans goals are here, but they seem to have selected a tactic (that if (when) discovered) is certain to annoy the Federation, and at a time when they can least afford it.
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This is exactly my position.

Assassination is not a valid tactic, and foreign aid assisting in assassinations, and foreign aid in general is not acceptable.

E: Unfortunately, it's not as easy as blocking with a duke. Or is it?
 
Hmm... entirely unrelated, but does anyone know the stats of our Starbases and Outposts?

Also I've seen the Starbases we have described as [Starbase I], so what's [Starbase II] and when do we get them?
 
aeqnai said:
Hmm... entirely unrelated, but does anyone know the stats of our Starbases and Outposts?

Also I've seen the Starbases we have described as [Starbase I], so what's [Starbase II] and when do we get them?
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Starbase II is unlocked via research, along with Outpost II and Deep Space Station I. We don't have any stats on it, but presumably it's like a Starbase but better. Will probably have it unlocked within the next two decades.
 
Nervos Belli said:
Starbase II is unlocked via research, along with Outpost II and Deep Space Station I. We don't have any stats on it, but presumably it's like a Starbase but better. Will probably have it unlocked within the next two decades.
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I think a Deep Space Station will be something between the ~10 of an outpost and the ~20 of a Starbase.
 
I don't think the decision on our responce to the Romulan intervention with House Bene lies in our hands. We can influence, yes, but..
 
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