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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X][EATON] Director, Starfleet Data Modelling, Ship Design Bureau, +1 to Sensor Research
[X][TLOREL] Director of Operations, Starfleet Explorer Command, +2 pp/year

[X][COM] Commodore Viraan zh'Dohlen

[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Courageous: Maryam Ajam
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
-[X] USS Miracht: Michel Thuir

Sure, I trust @AKuz.

Briefvoice said:
we can build a better ship
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Not that much better, actually, I'm afraid. Remember, this is a 1000kt ship; 1% of that is a mere 10kt.

That being said... if we do spend three more years on light cruiser research, bringing the team up to skill-5, then we'd be able to guarantee completion of the Renaissance project in three years, netting us 3 rp.
(Of course, that'd mean putting off the entry into service for over a decade; I don't think that's worth 3 rp).
 
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If we do all three refits plus the Renissance project that is 170 PP total. Instead I would prefer the Centaur Refit this snakepit and the renaissance project next snake pit for 80 PP total. That 90 PP saved can instead be used for additional colonies, academy expansion, budget expansion, diplo pushes and starbase and outpost building. The Centaur once refit will have C3 S3 D3 giving a crucial 1:1:1 ratio for those stats which drive a lot of our requirments. In addition once the refit project has finished any new Centaurs would be built with the improved stats. In contrast to the Constellation we are saving a year and some crew, and against the Miranda we are gaining a point of defense and a point of science. Also bear in mind we will have increase defense requirements for the home systems we have currently and new members will likely have defense requirments as well and I would not count on their current fleets fulfilling those, though we may be able to have their starbases and outposts transferred to us.

Edit: Also Centaur refit would give it the highest presence of a non explorer, interestingly enough outside of combat and defense it would either be the highest or tied for highest in S, H, L and P and would make the best response ship.

Briefvoice said:
Hmmm, let's actually math it out.

So the refit gets us +8 D, +8C, and +8S at the cost of 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr and 8 years of small berth time. Let's see what else it would take to get that.

Build 4 Centaurs to get +8D, +12C, and +8S. Cost: 320br, 240sr, 8 years of small berth time, and O-4, E-8, T-8. So you traded 45pp and 4C in return for saving 160br and 80sr and O-4, E-8, T-8.

So we can place a pp to br/sr conversion value.
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 20pp

That means that for 40 pp (I'll round down for simplicity's sake) we could get 460br 300sr.... hmmm. Now the "build more Centaurs" option is looking better. But do we actually have the crew to do it? Well... eventually.

I could let the Constellation refit go if we instead spend the pp on resources and then build one or two more Centaurs every year.
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If those are refitted Centaurs it would be +12 D, +12 C and +12 S so 4 more in each category. And brining new ones online will be quicker, plus if need be we can scrap Soyuz for crew.
 
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Three more years of light cruiser research would ALSO net us most to all of the level 2 light crusier techs, and a bunch of misc level 1 and 2 ship design upgrade techs.

I'm going to have to absolutely oppose the sillyness of starting our new LC design when we're ONE turn away from getting all the level 1 LC techs, and 3 turns from getting almost all the level 2 LC techs.

We've also got substantial upgrades from Warp, Computers, sensors, shields and xenopsych tech coming in within the three-year timeframe.
 
pheonix89 said:
Three more years of light cruiser research would ALSO net us most to all of the level 2 light crusier techs, and a bunch of misc level 1 and 2 ship design upgrade techs.

I'm going to have to absolutely oppose the sillyness of starting our new LC design when we're ONE turn away from getting all the level 1 LC techs, and 3 turns from getting almost all the level 2 LC techs.

We've also got substantial upgrades from Warp, Computers, sensors, shields and xenopsych tech coming in within the three-year timeframe.
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Maybe, if we do not push it back further than that, it would also let the light cruiser team hit skill 5 which would be only two turns of research on the Renissance if the example given earlier is still accurate. The problem though is there will always be tech breakthroughs if we wait a few more turns and at some point we will have to use what we have. Maybe 20 year cycles with refits after 10 years to take advantage of new tech?
 
Void Stalker said:
Maybe, if we do not push it back further than that, it would also let the light cruiser team hit skill 5 which would be only two turns of research on the Renissance if the example given earlier is still accurate. The problem though is there will always be tech breakthroughs if we wait a few more turns and at some point we will have to use what we have. Maybe 20 year cycles with refits after 10 years to take advantage of new tech?
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Are you leaving spare power for refits in your calculations? Because I've noticed that absolutely no one seems to be using the "spare power for eventual refits" option on the spreadsheet.

When to Do the Renaissance

Those who want to do it immediately, please answer me this. Where do you think the resources are going to come from to build Renissances? Right now we're spending just about everything we have to build more Excelsiors, and once UP opens up we're going to have Excelsior berths go begging because we can't build in them. What's the point in starting the Reniassance design if we don't have the crew or the br or the sr to build them because almost everything is being devoted to Excelsiors? Renaissance ships have huge crew requirements.

There's no point in doing a design we're not going to build. We could do fine for the next ten years building nothing but Excelsiors and some cheap Centaurs that we can eke out in between Excelsiors.

So I guess that's my answer. Show me where we'll have the resources to build Renaissance and I'm willing to start the design.
 
Another goal is to try to crank research per year up to 120. At that point, the cost to activate a team will likely be 8, and we can have 15 teams, all the main technologies, going at once. We're currently at 57, and likely 65 once the Betazoids and Amarkians are full members. Two more research colonies, and five more full members over the next 5-10 years, should give us that magic number. Plus, reserving 20-30 pp for improving all resources via membership seems like a good plan.
 
Briefvoice said:
Are you leaving spare power for refits in your calculations? Because I've noticed that absolutely no one seems to be using the "spare power for eventual refits" option on the spreadsheet.

When to Do the Renaissance

Those who want to do it immediately, please answer me this. Where do you think the resources are going to come from to build Renissances? Right now we're spending just about everything we have to build more Excelsiors, and once UP opens up we're going to have Excelsior berths go begging because we can't build in them. What's the point in starting the Reniassance design if we don't have the crew or the br or the sr to build them because almost everything is being devoted to Excelsiors? Renaissance ships have huge crew requirements.

There's no point in doing a design we're not going to build. We could do fine for the next ten years building nothing but Excelsiors and some cheap Centaurs that we can eke out in between Excelsiors.

So I guess that's my answer. Show me where we'll have the resources to build Renaissance and I'm willing to start the design.
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The 20 years was more a general idea for how long between designing new ships for each class. As for the Renaissance if waiting the 2 or 3 years let's us hit a bunch of tech upgrades that is fine, we would still need to do 2 to 3 years of research on the design so call it 5 years, at that time we should have the resources to start making them between budget increases, new members, colonies and the boost from mineral research.
 
Briefvoice said:
When to Do the Renaissance

Those who want to do it immediately, please answer me this. Where do you think the resources are going to come from to build Renissances? Right now we're spending just about everything we have to build more Excelsiors, and once UP opens up we're going to have Excelsior berths go begging because we can't build in them. What's the point in starting the Reniassance design if we don't have the crew or the br or the sr to build them because almost everything is being devoted to Excelsiors? Renaissance ships have huge crew requirements.

There's no point in doing a design we're not going to build. We could do fine for the next ten years building nothing but Excelsiors and some cheap Centaurs that we can eke out in between Excelsiors.

So I guess that's my answer. Show me where we'll have the resources to build Renaissance and I'm willing to start the design.
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That's easy: we stop new builds of Excelsiors for a little while.

We'll be finishing our fifth one for 5 Year Missions shortly, and the ones beyond that will go on garrison duty when they finish. If we don't start any more, we'll have lots of resources to start building Renaissances when it's ready.
 
I don't really see why people want to limit the explorer corps to five ships? Is getting full log entries for all of them all the time really that important to you? 5 is the absolute minimum we need, not the maximum to aim for. After we get to 5 maybe we won't be using recruitment drives anymore, but I abolutely want the explorer corps crews we acummulate to be used to expand the corps further. Most of the explorers will go to home defense but not all.
 
I'd rather keep expanding the Explorer Corps and FYMs as we go. Let them all snowball.
 
Nix said:
I don't really see why people want to limit the explorer corps to five ships? Is getting full log entries for all of them all the time really that important to you? 5 is the absolute minimum we need, not the maximum to aim for. After we get to 5 maybe we won't be using recruitment drives anymore, but I abolutely want the explorer corps crews we acummulate to be used to expand the corps further. Most of the explorers will go to home defense but not all.
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I said nothing about wanting only 5 ships on exploration missions, just that I wanted to stop building Excelsiors temporarily while we revamp our Light Cruisers.
 
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I'm in favor of adding FYMs at the end of tbe previous one, because it pleases my sense of symmetry, and with organic growth only, we get enough crew every five years.
 
[x][TLOREL] Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Command, +1 to Offensive Doctrine Research

[x][EATON] Director, Starfleet Data Modelling, Ship Design Bureau, +1 to Sensor Research

[x][COM] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu



A couple notes related to the current conversation:
  • The Excelsior, at least in a couple decades, looks to be the best light cruiser we could build, especially if it has a decent upgrade or two.
  • I support upgrading the Centaur, but primarily for role-play reasons. Specifically, if I understand Star Fleet naming conventions – no promises here – a modernized Yukikaze would be renamed USS Yukikaze A and the design would be known (at least informally) as the Yukikaze-class. If so, I'd suggest names like gust, zephyr, squall, breeze, gale, whirlwind, or hurricane for the following ships.
 
Derek58 said:
That's easy: we stop new builds of Excelsiors for a little while.

We'll be finishing our fifth one for 5 Year Missions shortly, and the ones beyond that will go on garrison duty when they finish. If we don't start any more, we'll have lots of resources to start building Renaissances when it's ready.
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And why would that be preferable to building more Excelsiors, if we have the berths to do so? If we keep pushing we could have 14 or 15 Excelsiors by 2314. Maybe then we can talk about building some Renaissance light cruisers.
 
sebsmith said:
The Excelsior, at least in a couple decades, looks to be the best light cruiser we could build, especially if it has a decent upgrade or two.
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Not really with the build time, cost, and crew requirements compared to the Light Cruisers. In several decades we'll probably have the Akira available to build, which is better than the Excelsior in everything but Science.

Briefvoice said:
And why would that be preferable to building more Excelsiors, if we have the berths to do so? If we keep pushing we could have 14 or 15 Excelsiors by 2314. Maybe then we can talk about building some Renaissance light cruisers.
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...because we can build them faster, cheaper, and for less crew, letting us increase the Defense in our sectors much more easily. That's the whole point.

I'm ok with waiting for the second levels of the Light Cruiser techs to finish, but I'm not waiting 8 years to start on the Renaissance.
 
Briefvoice said:
And why would that be preferable to building more Excelsiors, if we have the berths to do so? If we keep pushing we could have 14 or 15 Excelsiors by 2314. Maybe then we can talk about building some Renaissance light cruisers.
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Because with the resources from those 4 or 5 extra Excellsiors, we could instead have 12 to 15 (re-fit) Constellations? Yes, I know their inferior, that's why their called light cruisers. Their meant to be the spam-able knock off so that we can patrol our territory efficiently, without any massive holes in what is actually covered.
 
Derek58 said:
Not really with the build time, cost, and crew requirements compared to the Light Cruisers. In several decades we'll probably have the Akira available to build, which is better than the Excelsior in everything but Science.
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The Akira? It's crazy to even be thinking that far ahead.

...because we can build them faster, cheaper, and for less crew, letting us increase the Defense in our sectors much more easily. That's the whole point.

I'm ok with waiting for the second levels of the Light Cruiser techs to finish, but I'm not waiting 8 years to start on the Renaissance.
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Well see, now we're not that far apart. If we wait three years to start on the Renaissance then the first Renaissance would be built in 9 or 10 years*. I mean, sure I think we'd be starting have the amount of Excelsiors I'd want by 2315. It's not waiting 8 years to start, it's being willing to wait 8 or 9 years before the first prototype is built.

*The uncertainty is because I'm strongly in favor of building in at least 5 Reserve Power on the Renaissance for future upgrades so that that the design remains relevant for decades. If that means doing 40-something extra Techs, I say it's worth the time.
 
Briefvoice said:
Well see, now we're not that far apart. If we wait three years to start on the Renaissance then the first Renaissance would be built in 9 or 10 years*. I mean, sure I think we'd be starting have the amount of Excelsiors I'd want by 2315. It's not waiting 8 years to start, it's being willing to wait 8 or 9 years before the first prototype is built.

*The uncertainty is because I'm strongly in favor of building in at least 5 Reserve Power on the Renaissance for future upgrades so that that the design remains relevant for decades. If that means doing 40-something extra Techs, I say it's worth the time.
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And in the meantime we can build refit Constellations if we need more Defense.

We also don't need it to remain relevant nearly that long, we've got 3 much better classes of Light Cruisers after it.
 
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X][TLOREL] Director of Operations, Starfleet Explorer Command, +2 pp/year
No. of votes: 24
Yeangst, Briefvoice, pheonix89, DarknessSmiles, Finagle007, Random Member, Void Stalker, SuperSonicSound, HearthBorn, AlphaDelta, pbluekan, cast2007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, aledeth, AKuz, tryrar, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Muer'ci, nocarename, Derek58, Night_stalker, anon_user

[X][EATON] Director, Starfleet Signals Division, Starfleet Intelligence, more accurate ship counts for other powers.
No. of votes: 6
Yeangst, Finagle007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, tryrar, aeqnai

[X][FYM] Select Captains
No. of votes: 28
Yeangst, Briefvoice, Muramasa, pheonix89, DarknessSmiles, Finagle007, Random Member, Shard, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, pbluekan, Happerry, fasquardon, cast2007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, aledeth, AKuz, tryrar, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Muer'ci, Derek58, Artemis1992, aeqnai, Night_stalker, remulian, anon_user

-[X] USS Courageous: Captain Maryam Ajam
No. of votes: 2
Yeangst, Shard

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Revak
No. of votes: 3
Yeangst, Shard, fasquardon

-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Talan th'Zahliss
No. of votes: 3
Yeangst, Finagle007, Shard

[X][COM] Commodore Viraan zh'Dohlen
No. of votes: 14
Yeangst, pheonix89, Random Member, fasquardon, Iron Wolf, Glassware, AKuz, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Muer'ci, Nix, SynchronizedWritersBlock, aeqnai, anon_user

[X][EATON] Director, Starfleet Data Modelling, Ship Design Bureau, +1 to Sensor Research
No. of votes: 25
Briefvoice, Muramasa, pheonix89, DarknessSmiles, Random Member, Void Stalker, SuperSonicSound, HearthBorn, Shard, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, pbluekan, fasquardon, cast2007, AKuz, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Muer'ci, nocarename, Derek58, Artemis1992, Night_stalker, remulian, anon_user, sebsmith

-[X] USS Courageous: Maram Ajam
No. of votes: 11
Briefvoice, pheonix89, DarknessSmiles, pbluekan, cast2007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, tryrar, Muer'ci, aeqnai, remulian

-[X] USS Sarek: Straak
No. of votes: 11
Briefvoice, DarknessSmiles, Random Member, pbluekan, cast2007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, aledeth, tryrar, Muer'ci, aeqnai

-[X] USS Miracht: Michel Thuir
No. of votes: 20
Briefvoice, pheonix89, DarknessSmiles, Random Member, HearthBorn, pbluekan, cast2007, Iron Wolf, Glassware, AKuz, tryrar, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Muer'ci, nocarename, Derek58, aeqnai, Night_stalker, remulian, anon_user

[X][COM] Rear Admiral Hikaru Sulu
No. of votes: 17
Briefvoice, Muramasa, DarknessSmiles, Finagle007, Void Stalker, Shard, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, pbluekan, Happerry, cast2007, tryrar, nocarename, Derek58, Artemis1992, Night_stalker, sebsmith

[X][TLOREL] Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Command, +1 to Offensive Doctrine Research
No. of votes: 9
Muramasa, Shard, Katsuragi, Happerry, fasquardon, Artemis1992, aeqnai, remulian, sebsmith

-[X] USS Courageous: Captain Rosalee McAdams
No. of votes: 4
Muramasa, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, Artemis1992

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain T'Rinta
No. of votes: 7
Muramasa, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, Happerry, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, Artemis1992

-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Maryam Ajam
No. of votes: 4
Muramasa, Katsuragi, AlphaDelta, Artemis1992

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Langa Mbeki
No. of votes: 3
pheonix89, Derek58, Night_stalker

-[X] USS Courageous: Captain Revak
No. of votes: 1
Finagle007

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Maryam Ajam
No. of votes: 1
Finagle007

-[X] USS Courageous: Maryam Ajam
No. of votes: 11
Random Member, Void Stalker, SuperSonicSound, HearthBorn, AKuz, UbeOne, Nervos Belli, nocarename, Derek58, Night_stalker, anon_user

[X] USS Sarek: Revak
No. of votes: 1
Void Stalker

[X] USS Miracht: Langa Mbeki
No. of votes: 2
Void Stalker, aledeth

[X][COM] Commodore Hurgok Sagek
No. of votes: 3
SuperSonicSound, HearthBorn, aledeth

[X] USS Sarek: Langa Mbeki
No. of votes: 2
SuperSonicSound, HearthBorn

[X] USS Miracht: Revak
No. of votes: 1
SuperSonicSound

[X][EATON] Director, Starfleet Battle Review Division, Starfleet Tactical Command, extra research bonuses from battles
No. of votes: 2
Happerry, aledeth

-[X] USS Enterprise: Nash ka'Sharren LOCKED
No. of votes: 1
Happerry

-[X] USS Courageous: Captain Michel Thuir
No. of votes: 2
Happerry, fasquardon

-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Syzi ch'Zelil
No. of votes: 1
Happerry

-[X] USS Miracht: Captain Langa Mbeki
No. of votes: 1
fasquardon

-[X] USS Courageous: Michel Thuir
No. of votes: 1
aledeth

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Straak
No. of votes: 3
AKuz, nocarename, anon_user

-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Rosalee McAdams
No. of votes: 1
remulian
 
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