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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Nix said:
Trying to get all of that would take several hundred pp and we currently only have 90.5. Let's take a look at each item to see whether it is something we should get at all and if so whether its a priority or can be delayed.

First the refits. We should try to get one of them this year if possible to have a reasonably up to date smaller ship type (moderately high priority). The others can be delayed, though I'm not sure we should get the Centaur refit at all. We only have 2 Centaurs so there isn't all that much to refit in the first place, and we could build refit Mirandas until we develop a better escort type. Or perhaps use Amarki designs after they join.

Diplomatic pushes. Pushes with Rigellians and Caitians should be top priority, because they are likely to push the relationship above 300. Depending on how the two relationship rolls with the Amarki go pushing them could either be a priority or something we need not bother with because they are close enough for the yearly rolls to do the job quickly. Right now it looks like we should push them though. If any other affiliates get into striking range for relationship 300 those should be pushed as well (high priority), otherwise pushes can be delayed.
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The thing is, a Constellation refit and two diplomatic pushes are 65 pp, leaving us 25 pp to play with. So we have to turn back around and ask which of the lower priority items should be considered.

I'd suggest doing the upgraded Tellar outposts and a third diplomatic push with Amarki to move them to full membership, or Betazed if the Amarki are looking like they're already there.

Upgraded outposts in the Tellar sector have similar issues, and while the situation there looks a bit more immediately dangerous there is also the issue of Amarki accession, after which the Tellar sector will only be as much of a frontier as the Andor sector currently is. Since there is no outpost action on offer for Andor it seems there is no real need. Low priority but delaying doesn't make much sense, do without if it doesn't fit in easily.
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The outposts don't cost much and they'll generate additional peace of mind for the Tellarites. I think that's worth 10 pp, since it's evidently something that the Council kind of wants. That's why it's so cheap.

EDIT: I mean, +5 Defense is what you get from a Starbase, so we're basically being offered a Starbase at half cost because the Tellarites are nervous right now. Why not take a discount when it's offered?
 
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I would like to never drop below two pushes each snakepit. I'd like to Continue Amarki and Betazed until finished then shift.
 
I agree with Akuz. We get more benefits from full integration then we do from partial (diplo at 300+) so its best to push a few at a time to full membership.

Having half a dozen races join as full members all at once is also probably not a good idea. I can see a lot of issues coming from that.
 
AKuz said:
I would like to never drop below two pushes each snakepit. I'd like to Continue Amarki and Betazed until finished then shift.
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Our rp & pp from Tellar is the same as Amarkia; it's tempting to get the partial benefits up faster than pushing the full memberships.

Edit: Although, I don't mind pushing them forward as a test of what their final benefits are. If the numbers on both approximately double, it will be well worth it.
 
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I'd rather push for a budget increase than refit the Constellations now. Personally I think it'd be smarter to let the tech teams work for a few years and then push out a new cruiser. The +1 to all stats still makes the Constellations a mediocre ship at best.
 
I doubt we'll only get benefits. New full federation members seems like it'd also include new responsabilities as well.
 
Nervos Belli said:
I'd rather push for a budget increase than refit the Constellations now. Personally I think it'd be smarter to let the tech teams work for a few years and then push out a new cruiser. The +1 to all stats still makes the Constellations a mediocre ship at best.
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Please consider the 120 Defense by 2311 Council requirement. We can get there, but it's going to be closer than I'd like if we do it all by building new ships. What if we lose an Excelsior or two in disasters? The biggest recommendation for the Constellation refit is that it lets us get +8 Defense cheaply and relatively quickly, giving us a much nicer buffer for that requirement. We don't want to be at 120 exactly; we want to be 130 or more to be really safe.

And of course, we get some better ships out of the deal!
 
The Amarki will definitely become members at least a few quarters before the Betazoids, even if both get the bump. And while we have four others around the same level (180s to 220s), I doubt we'll try to push all of them at once.

Briefvoice said:
Please consider the 120 Defense by 2311 Council requirement. We can get there, but it's going to be closer than I'd like if we do it all by building new ships. What if we lose an Excelsior or two in disasters? The biggest recommendation for the Constellation refit is that it lets us get +8 Defense cheaply and relatively quickly, giving us a much nicer buffer for that requirement. We don't want to be at 120 exactly; we want to be 130 or more to be really safe.

And of course, we get some better ships out of the deal!
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The ten to get the Tellar Outpost Expansion seems like a good bump as well; I'd rather do that cheap option before anything else towards the defense goal.
 
Quite honestly I'd much rather fail that requirement than end up with a fleet full of Connies in the 24th century.
 
Ah, on another topic, most likely for another time, we really should get the Starbase Design team activated soon. It's an expensive path, but it looks rather useful.
 
Briefvoice said:
Please consider the 120 Defense by 2311 Council requirement. We can get there, but it's going to be closer than I'd like if we do it all by building new ships. What if we lose an Excelsior or two in disasters? The biggest recommendation for the Constellation refit is that it lets us get +8 Defense cheaply and relatively quickly, giving us a much nicer buffer for that requirement. We don't want to be at 120 exactly; we want to be 130 or more to be really safe.

And of course, we get some better ships out of the deal!
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We have 96 now, and 27 in the queue. That's 123 right there, ignoring any stations or other ships we lay down in the next five years. Doing the refit for the Constellations will require 18 months for the design, then a year for each ship. With eight ships and four 1mt berths, that's another two years doing the refits.

Total cost: 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr, and three and a half years to complete. Two of those years being unable to produce any other small ships. For +8 Defense.

We can get 5 defense for 10pp, just by building outposts in the Tellar Sector. We may very well get 5 defense when we fully integrate the Amarki, if they let us take over the Starbase. Basically, barring some Wolf 359 situation we should be set for the defense requirement, and even if that becomes an issue there are much cheaper ways of boosting it.
 
Nervos Belli said:
We have 96 now, and 27 in the queue. That's 123 right there, ignoring any stations or other ships we lay down in the next five years. Doing the refit for the Constellations will require 18 months for the design, then a year for each ship. With eight ships and four 1mt berths, that's another two years doing the refits.

Total cost: 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr, and three and a half years to complete. Two of those years being unable to produce any other small ships. For +8 Defense.
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Hmmm, let's actually math it out.

So the refit gets us +8 D, +8C, and +8S at the cost of 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr and 8 years of small berth time. Let's see what else it would take to get that.

Build 4 Centaurs to get +8D, +12C, and +8S. Cost: 320br, 240sr, 8 years of small berth time, and O-4, E-8, T-8. So you traded 45pp and 4C in return for saving 160br and 80sr and O-4, E-8, T-8.

So we can place a pp to br/sr conversion value.
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 20pp

That means that for 40 pp (I'll round down for simplicity's sake) we could get 460br 300sr.... hmmm. Now the "build more Centaurs" option is looking better. But do we actually have the crew to do it? Well... eventually.

I could let the Constellation refit go if we instead spend the pp on resources and then build one or two more Centaurs every year.
 
[X][TLOREL] Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Command, +1 to Offensive Doctrine Research

[X][EATON] Director, Starfleet Data Modelling, Ship Design Bureau, +1 to Sensor Research

[X][FYM] Select Captains
-[X] USS Courageous: Maram Ajam
-[X] USS Sarek: Captain Rosalee McAdams
-[X] USS Miracht: Michel Thuir
 
DarknessSmiles said:
I agree with Akuz. We get more benefits from full integration then we do from partial (diplo at 300+) so its best to push a few at a time to full membership.

Having half a dozen races join as full members all at once is also probably not a good idea. I can see a lot of issues coming from that.
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Plus, it allows us to prevent any Spoonhead moves against us.
 
Briefvoice said:
Hmmm, let's actually math it out.

So the refit gets us +8 D, +8C, and +8S at the cost of 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr and 8 years of small berth time. Let's see what else it would take to get that.

Build 4 Centaurs to get +8D, +12C, and +8S. Cost: 320br, 240sr, 8 years of small berth time, and O-4, E-8, T-8. So you traded 45pp and 4C in return for saving 160br and 80sr and O-4, E-8, T-8.

So we can place a pp to br/sr conversion value.
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 20pp

That means that for 40 pp (I'll round down for simplicity's sake) we could get 460br 300sr.... hmmm. Now the "build more Centaurs" option is looking better. But do we actually have the crew to do it? Well... eventually.

I could let the Constellation refit go if we instead spend the pp on resources and then build one or two more Centaurs every year.
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I can agree with that. A budget increase would be valuable right now.
 
aeqnai said:
Quite honestly I'd much rather fail that requirement than end up with a fleet full of Connies in the 24th century.
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In canon the Constitution class served in the Dominion War (though it isn't clear if they served continuously or into mothballs after some point in the 2360s and were then taken out in 2373 to fight the Dominion).

Even if all of the Connies were destroyed or scrapped after the Dominion War ended, the Constitution served for at least 130 years.

And that's not unusual. In the TNG era the Excelsior class, then 90 years old, was the backbone of the fleet. The Obreth, Miranda and Constellation classes likewise seem to be the dominant ships in their respective classes and were all either just over or just under 90 years old. The Klingons are even worse for keeping classes working for long periods of time - the D7 battlecruiser was a class that fought both Kirk and Archer - i.e. this ship performed as a formidable warship for over 110 years. The D7's predicessor, the D4, served for a similar length of time, serving for at least 120 years. The next generation of Klingon hardware, the K't'inga and the B'rel served from the 2270s through to the Dominion War period - 100 years and still going. From what is shown in the movies and TV shows, it's clear that the Federation and the Klingons (and likely the other powers) usually keep a class serving for around 100 years.

(Of course, OOC, the reason for this was because the TV shows were making use of the models built for the Trek movies.)

Briefvoice said:
That means that for 40 pp (I'll round down for simplicity's sake) we could get 460br 300sr.... hmmm. Now the "build more Centaurs" option is looking better. But do we actually have the crew to do it? Well... eventually.
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The crew costs of designs are significant, and something that we should keep a careful eye on, since there is demand for alot of defense power and science power from Starfleet, which means we'll be building an awful lot of ships over the next 5 years and increasing recruitment seems to be one of the harder things to do in this quest.

On the flip side, the "Centaur refit" is one of the most economical refits, so some combination of "refit Centaur" and "build a bunch of Centaurs" seems like it would be a wise move.

fasquardon
 
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tryrar said:
@Briefvoice one thing I spotted in you plan that I hate: No Renaissances.
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Do you mean my Shakepit plan or my build plan? Anyway, I'm just not ready to request Renaissance this year.

Look at the Research Progress for Light Cruisers:

12 / 15 Nacelle Design Improvements (-2% to Nacelle Penalty on Cruisers)
15 / 15 Design Efficiency I (-2% to SR Costs)
2 / 30 Design Efficiency II (-2% to SR Costs)
12 / 15 Combat Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
12 / 15 Science Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
15 / 15 Hull Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
2 / 15 Hull Design II (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
12 / 15 Shield Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
12 / 15 Presence Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
12 / 15 Defence Design I (-1% to Cruisers stat weights)
12 / 30 Module Design I (-2% to Scale 1 Module Frame Weight)
12 / 150 Cruiser Size I (Scale 7 Cruisers now allowed)

One more year. Just give us one freaking year to finish all those technologies, and we can start it in 2307 I promise. Is that so unreasonable? All those technologies will finish and we can build a better ship. @OneirosTheWriter clarified that we can't incorporate technologies finished after we start the design process.

In my build plan, I did have a berth set aside for Renaissance at UP when it opens in 2309. Where else would you want to build the prototype, after all?
 
Do we expect science and defense requirements to not change with a growing federation via extra members? I expect the new members fleets will more than cover the increase, but not by much margin, and may have ships that need to replaced with our designs (betazed cruisers should be used as federation diplomatic transports, not planetary defense forces, for example, and spread to one per sector).
 
ClawClawBite said:
Do we expect science and defense requirements to not change with a growing federation via extra members? I expect the new members fleets will more than cover the increase, but not by much margin, and may have ships that need to replaced with our designs (betazed cruisers should be used as federation diplomatic transports, not planetary defense forces, for example, and spread to one per sector).
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Again, going by the Andorian example the member fleets will not get folded into Starfleet. They keep their own planetary defense forces and we are responsible for patrolling the Sector as a whole. That's why we were able to shake a Constellation class that we didn't know existed out of Andoria in the middle of the Biophage crisis.
 
Briefvoice said:
Hmmm, let's actually math it out.

So the refit gets us +8 D, +8C, and +8S at the cost of 45 pp, 160 br, 80 sr and 8 years of small berth time. Let's see what else it would take to get that.

Build 4 Centaurs to get +8D, +12C, and +8S. Cost: 320br, 240sr, 8 years of small berth time, and O-4, E-8, T-8. So you traded 45pp and 4C in return for saving 160br and 80sr and O-4, E-8, T-8.

So we can place a pp to br/sr conversion value.
Request Allocation for an Excelsior's resources, one-off-infusion of an Excelsior's cost, 20pp

That means that for 40 pp (I'll round down for simplicity's sake) we could get 460br 300sr.... hmmm. Now the "build more Centaurs" option is looking better. But do we actually have the crew to do it? Well... eventually.

I could let the Constellation refit go if we instead spend the pp on resources and then build one or two more Centaurs every year.
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Of course, two one-off Excelsiors would be 40 PP and would make up 12D, much more than the refit project, at a hefty crew cost. If we can get Excelsiors for that price, it's actually more efficient than pretty much anything else resource/stat related. One-off Excelsiors might even be better than a budget increase, given that they're into action in four years, far before the budget infusion would make up the difference.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Of course, two one-off Excelsiors would be 40 PP and would make up 12D, much more than the refit project, at a hefty crew cost. If we can get Excelsiors for that price, it's actually more efficient than pretty much anything else resource/stat related. One-off Excelsiors might even be better than a budget increase, given that they're into action in four years, far before the budget infusion would make up the difference.
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Excelsiors are limited by crews and number of berths; primarily crew right now.

Their Crew requirements are: Crew [O-6, E-5, T-5]

Our yearly Academy output is: O - 5.50pts (+1.25 Explorer Corps), T - 5.50pts (+1.2 Explorer Corps), E - 7.10pts (+1.5 Explorer Corps)

That means we're limited to crewing 1 normal Excelsior/year, plus an Explorer Corps Excelsior every 5 years or so. More members and Affiliates will make it easier to increase Academy throughput, and we can also scrap our Soyuz and Mirandas for spare crew, but it's a big constraint. That's one reason I was pushing the Constellation refits; increasing stats without increasing Crew is pretty good right now.

EDIT: Also, recall a budget increase is a roll, not guaranteed. I don't know what the odds on the roll are, but we got two budget increases (one for free and one rolled) only two years ago so the roll may have pretty poor odds right now.
 
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