Omake - Devas and Asuras Pt 3 - Simon_Jester
DEVAS AND ASURAS
Chapter Three

Recommended Listening: "The Battle of the Ice"

Advisory: This chapter contains depictions of intense, close-quarters violence.

USS Kumari
Six Light-Minutes off Deva IX
Stardate 25152.7


"Ma'am, the Sydraxian cruisers have dropped shields on the side facing Endurance- I think they're beaming boarding parties over!"

"Understood." Jessica Rivers hid the fuming frustration and worry building in her gut.

She'd had her reasons for dividing her command in the face of the enemy. She'd expected a chaotic melee with no ship able to concentrate on another for long. Formation fighting had never been a Federation strength, and nothing she'd seen, read, or heard led her to expect it from the Sydraxians. But if the fight would be chaos, keeping one ship out of the fray to watch the others and exploit opportunities? She'd need that, as a reserve force.

And it had worked. Endurance's sniping fire had chewed up the shields of more than one of the Hierarchy ships, either directly or indirectly. But the price was leaving Chekov isolated. She'd bet on the Sydraxians being too busy to take advantage of that, she'd lost, and now they would pay.

Still, better a bunch of screaming commandos than another spread of those crude- but frighteningly effective- thermonuclear torpedoes. If the enemy wanted to board Chekov's ship, at least they had minutes, not seconds, before the Excelsior was mortally threatened. Minutes they could use. But how? Rivers felt her jaw twitch slightly, as she pondered the display. How to make the advantage Chekov had bought her count? Could they exploit that, hard enough to turn the tide of the battle, and bail the other Excelsior out of its disastrous troubles?



USS Endurance
Main Bridge
Moments Earlier


Pavel Chekov sucked in a deep breath as the Sydraxians milled about in the middle of their battle against the rest of Task Force One.

They'd brutally beaten his ship with massed fire. Endurance lolled in space, attitude thrusters stuttering in short sharp bursts to counteract plumes of boiling coolant from hull breaches. Entire sections were offline, though he desperately hoped that was damage to internal communications and not outright destruction of vast tracts of the hull. But he still had torpedoes, most of his phasers, some of his propulsion systems... The shield generators would be back on line soon enough. If the rest of the fleet could keep the Sydraxians from finishing the job-

ch'Vohrer cried from the backup tactical console, "Sir, their cruisers are lowering shields-" even as frinc Cheg at the main controls laid in a barrage of phaser strikes. On battery power and with some of the control lines cut, the Excelsior's fire lacked its usual ferocity, doing little more than skitter across the cruisers' armored hulls, leaving long burn scars but little damage.

"Picking up spikes of transporter energy!"

And within a heartbeat of those words, an armored soldier began to appear in a blue shimmer before Chekov's very eyes- only to double over, agonized. Ensign Melethdra had leapt from the helm console in that moment, drawn her smallsword, and leaned into the mass of sparkling motes. When the Sydraxian fully emerged from the transporter's unreality, he did so with a length of steel as long as his forearm already buried in- commingled with- his heart.

The Amarki drew her phaser and died, another Sydraxian's carefully aimed flechette gun raising a spray of blue-green blood from her chest and neck. Time seemed to stretch as Melethdra fell, and Chekov shouted an agonized curse. He'd had his phaser out and trained and firing, but the stunning beam shimmered harmlessly against the commando's heavy armor. The Sydraxian's flexible neck flicked around quickly and their eyes met. Then a second weapon warbled its song, Commander frinc Cheg adding the weight of his own stun-beam.

The commando's knees buckled from what fraction of the effect had leaked through armor plate, buying moments. Chekov's fingers might tremble now and then, but he knew exactly where to place them from half a century of practice as he set his phaser to kill. It was the old model, souped up in a few ways that had never made it into the books, and the captain's next shot left a blinding red-purple outline of disintegration where the Sydraxian used to stand.

Chekov hissed and nearly dropped the weapon; he'd forgotten how much heat the little old thing could generate at maximum power. He knelt, half expecting to have to pick the phaser up off the floor, but it didn't slip through his fingers after all. His decision took only an instant as his bridge crew traded energy beams against scattergun blasts at point blank range. We'll never be able to hold here, or control the ship even if we do. Sooner or later there'd be a second wave.

He flipped the hidden latch off a cover plate, made one adjustment- screamed again, as ricocheting flechettes chewed into and through his left leg, sending him sprawling to the deck. Scrabbling, the old man recovered the weapon. Removed a certain interlock dowel, made another adjustment, a third. Over his head, his bridge crew fought and died. Frinc Cheg screamed horribly, and it wouldn't stop- The main door slid open and a security team charged through, phasers at the ready. Soon the firing stopped.

Chekov dropped his gun and stopped gritting his teeth against the pain. This he must do. "Computer! Transfer control to Auxiliary Bridge! Bridge crew, evacuate!" The Starfleet officers around him heard the shout, and the computer's faint, calm "Acknowledged." A few moved as if to argue, but when they saw that he was wounded they changed their minds. Two security troopers moved to drape his arms over their shoulders and led him off the bridge.

Numbly, he allowed it- his eyes, though, dwelt on the wrack and ruin of officers and equipment.



USS Endurance
Deck Five Corridors


As he led his people to sickbay, Pavel Chekov had scraped together the bridge crew, the bridge module computer techs, and two medical orderlies. Even so, They had barely enough people- even counting walking wounded- to keep watch against the fireteams of roving enemy commandos, keep moving, and assist those unable to move themselves.

Especially not after the Sydraxian claymore mine went off, killing the security team's point man and wounding two other officers.

Ch'Vohrer limped along on his own feet now, refusing help and sweeping for more boobytraps. The Andorian was so mauled from his attempt to grapple with a Sydraxian commando that Chekov was amazed the lieutenant could stand, let alone operate a tricorder. But he couldn't afford to tell him to stop, as they trudged and staggered through corridors that were starting to fill with the smells of smoke and blood.

He could hear Commander T'Mela's crisp voice over the intercom; either the Sydraxians didn't know where Battle Bridge was, or they hadn't been able to get commandos into it. Grimly, he repeated the long-familiar process of thanking his stars for a Vulcan's implacable nerve in a crisis.

For a moment he longed for his old leaders, his old companions- then thought better of it. Perhaps it was best that it be him. The hapless young Russian. Not so young now- but in his bones and in his heritage, Pavel Chekov knew how to endure through red-handed chaos. McCoy, Sulu, Spock, the rest- they deserved better than to have to suffer this. They'd have done marvelously, that he knew... but this wasn't their kind of fight, not any of them.

And the new breed of officers, the ones who'd killed the Biophage and manned the frontier against the Cardassians? They had their virtues, too. Lieutenant Commander Chatsworth had, without a word, with seemingly total unconcern, quickened her pace to replace the team's point man. Holding her phaser in a posture straight out of a textbook, she fell into step with the security team.

Presumably, the communications officer had spotted the arm sticking out around the corner a split second fast. But only a split second- Ensign Zwicky shouted "DOWN! GRENADE!" even as the hissing whine of Chatsworth's sidearm split the air, and ended in an eerie silence. No explosion. For in that moment, grenade, arm, and hand had all vanished in a red flash of disintegration, annihilating the chemical explosives before they could detonate.

The silence was broken by armored commandos charging around the corner. Chatsworth took the first, her beam stepped back down to high heat, tracking out to sweep up and through his long, twisting neck. Two security men fired within moments, the net of deadly energies such that the next commando was disintegrated before he could fall. They turned their fire on the third and last- who was already writhing, his armored visor smoking from another burst from Chatsworth.

Chekov could not help but be surprised, even though he'd known this on some level, known since the counter-intrusion drills he'd ordered run just after the Cardassians hit Bajor.

He'd known this. He'd known. He just hadn't... grasped it when he came aboard.

The most capable pistolera on his ship was his communications officer. Not Security. Not Tactical, as often proved the case despite the difference between war in space and on the ground. No, it had been communications, of all things. The quiet, asocial, electronics wizard. The standoffish officer with the clipped, severe voice, the one he couldn't help but imagine shushing library patrons. Sometimes he half expected her ears to sprout points- but in all honesty, most of the Vulcans he'd known were friendlier, once you got to know them.

And she might just have saved all their lives.

Gritting his teeth, Chekov gasped, "KEEP... GOING!" Sickbay was defensible- at least, so far as any place could be defended against this.



Chekov rounded the corner they'd just fought their way around, bolstered by a barrel-chested Vulcan. The computer technician gripped his shoulder with casual strength, like a machine press trying to be gentle, supporting his captain even as he carried Commander frinc Cheg slung under his other shoulder like a parcel.

All the Vulcans among their motley band were helping wounded, now, whatever they'd been doing before, whatever their specialization. Anyone could fire a phaser or scan for explosive boobytraps. Only a Vulcan could handle two or three wounded men with no more trouble than a human would have with one.

Looking at the alien, Chekov couldn't decide if the first commando, the one with the grenade, had been lucky or not. The disintegration blast had only taken the Sydraxian's arm. Chekov watched, realizing that the seeming twitches of the commando's right hand were not purposeless, but truly were reaching for some device- but even as he took breath to shout an alarm, the commando vanished in a shower of blue swirling sparks. Beamed up, beamed away to some Sydraxian ship that must be hovering like a vulture outside his own.

It hadn't only been the descent on the bridge, then. The Sydraxians must be using their transporters for more than just a round of boarding attacks.

Unbidden, his mind threw images of the enemy commandos appearing out of nowhere, vanishing as his security teams reached them. The attack on the bridge might have been a fight to the death, but the Hierarchy's ground troops weren't stupid. They would know an Excelsior's crew had the advantage of numbers, and better knowledge of the ship. But with Endurance's shields still firmly down, the Hierarchy troops could move about the ship and concentrate their forces at will, whittling away his people one attack at a time and vanishing whenever they met more resistance than their objective was worth.

The blood of his crew, draining from a hundred cuts...

Smoke and burnt flesh were stronger smells, now; distant explosions and the sounds of weapons fire echoed along the corridors through the glare of emergency lights.

His mind was wandering. Focus! He wracked his brains, trying to recollect things that could be done to defeat a teleporting enemy, things within the skills of the people he had left...
 
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The following are the only remaining 2314 snakepit options that can get us more 3mt berths:
  • Request Excelsior berth at a shipyard, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth) [+5 for every extra 3mt berth present at shipyard past the first]
  • Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
  • Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
  • Request new Shipyard at Ferasa, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)
  • Request new Shipyard at Rigel, 22pp, (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth)

Ferasa is close to the Bajor/Seyek border, one of the likely key areas in a conflict, along with bordering Dawiar, but it also takes 3 years to build a shipyard there, meaning a ETC of 2318Q2.

Rigel is trailward albeit close to Sydraxia, but it would take a full 3 years to build a shipyard there, meaning an ETC 2318Q2.

Utopia Planitia is overall closer to Cardassian territory and clients than Rigel, and an expansion there is both cost efficient and quick, an ETC 2316Q2.

Amarkia is a pretty good shipyard location, near enough yet also well protected, and decent at cost efficiency, but like Ferasa and Rigel, has an ETC 2318Q2.

Apinae is the closest to Cardassia space and key to GBZ contention. However, the shipyard at Apinae is scheduled to complete in 2317Q2, so the soonest we could build get a 3mt expansion there is 2318Q4, which is even worse than the Ferasa option, never mind it being expensive.

The only shipyard ready for expansion that is closer to Cardassia space than Utopia Planitia is Andor's LOCF Tellar's Ana Font, but it's barely any closer and the 3mt expansion is still expensive.

So, no great options here. Hoping repair yard/berth options turn up next snakepit.

edit: In case it wasn't obvious, all the ETCs listed above are assuming we take such snakepit options in the coming 2315 snakepit.
 
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[Expansions at Utopia Planitia are good, but specifically for repairs Utopia Planitia has drawbacks. While it's always possible for something to blow up on the trailward frontier, we're more likely to need repair capability close to Cardassian space. The sheer distance ships have to travel to undergo repairs at Utopia Planitia is a disadvantage]

However that cuts both ways. Being far away adds maybe an extra quarter to repair time. Being close renders the shipyard vulnerable to raids meant to destroy ships under repair. Imagine a strike at Apinae meant to get in just long enough to lob photon torpedoes into ships under repair, then retreat back again.
 
Using existing evasion formulas I was estimating around a 22.5% evasion rate for the Centaur-A and a 24.5% evasion rate for the Miranda-A, assuming 800kt frame for Centaur-A, 450kt+150kt frame+module for the Miranda-A, and comparable impulse engines. That's only a ~2% difference. You don't need +1 S to do much to evasion rate to tip the scales in favor of the Centaur-A, and I don't think anyone thought it would be a massive change.

That's an estimate: It gets worse if you try to module the Miranda-A as actually around 650kt according to the listed tonnage, which requires a 600kt+150kt frame+module since there's no T-1 500kt or so frame, resulting in around 23% evasion rate. Or if the Centaur-A has significantly more impulse engine power than the Miranda-A to help reach D3 - double impulse engine worth of reaction stat amounts to about an extra 0.5% evasion rate at this scale. Worse case, the Centaur-A and Miranda-A already have about the same evasion rate.

So knowing about the "(defending S - attacking S) / 100" modifier, the Centaur-A essentially has a 2% advantage over the Miranda-A in this modifier. If that modifier acts as a multiplier, then that's about a 0.5% evasion rate increase for the Centaur-A relative to the Miranda-A. If it's acting as an addition, then that's a straight 2% evasion rate increase instead. So if it's the latter interpretation, the Centaur-A does edge out the Miranda-A in raw combat.
I was using estimates from old designs which, by my memory, estimated 20.5 to 22% for the C-A and 24.5 to 27.5% (yes, that existed once) for the Miranda. But let's accept the 2% difference. That's not what I was trying to argue on anyway.

To make the difference between 60/45 1/2/1 and 80/70 1/2/2 more cost efficient in combat (which was the argument being made), we'd be talking about a 55% increase in combat effectiveness for SR and a 20% increase for crew totals, all thanks to +1S.

I was rightly saying that expecting the C-A to compete in cost efficiency was ridiculous.

Now that we know it, the actual effect of +1S as +1% damage hit rate and +1% evasion, we can estimate the C3.03 H2.02 L3.03 C-A as being worth 61 BR 46 SR and 5.05 crew, and that's discounting it's evasion disadvantage entirely. So no, the improvement does not make the C-A cost effective for its combat stats. Naturally it still has its advantages in garrison.

e: This science to evasion thing is probably one of the items a tech-ship doctrine modifies.
 
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His mind was wandering. Focus! He wracked his brains, trying to recollect things that could be done to defeat a teleporting enemy, things within the skills of the people he had left...

If only he could get the shields up and running again... Then again, the combat logs indicated that the moment shields regened a bit, Endurance received another barrage of fire from 2 Kalindrax and 2 Hasques, and then some 3 further parting shots before the Sydraxian fleet retreated.

Or a decade ago: "Activate EPS Venting Protocols!" :V

In the meantime, their Hasques are taking a pounding.

edit: Combat logs do indicate that the Endurance was pretty much out of the fight at this point (around turn 350)...until the very end when it scored the last two hits a killed a Hasque as her final revenge (around turn 400).

I was rightly saying that expecting the C-A to compete in cost efficiency was ridiculous.

No one was saying that Centaur-As should be more cost efficient than Miranda-As (edit: in combat), merely that it's now feasible for a Centaur-A to beat a Miranda-A >50% of the time, and that the overall utility of the Centaur-A has been brought up a notch relative to the Miranda-A.
 
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I wonder if it's worth trying to bump the Academy Commandant to Vice Admiral. Might get us some bonuses to recruitment, or let us replace Certann with someone with a more valuable bonus right now.
 
Anyway, Happy Easter everyone ;)

In light of recent comments and in the spirit of this holiday...

[X][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, Make the Vulcans Repair Everything
[X][NAME1] Easter
[X][NAME2] Wester
 
Okay, updated my vote. After consideration, I see the benefits in putting off the refits while we see how the war shakes out. We can always start them 2316.Q1, losing only 2 quarters.

[X][NAME1] Pathfinder
[X][NAME2] Sojourner

[X][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, Make the Vulcans Repair Everything

EDIT: Updated my vote. Putting refits off for a couple of quarters to see how the war shakes out makes good sense to me.

[][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, 2 Miranda-A refits

  • SF Berth A (3mt) – Leave empty after Kumari completes repairs (ETC 2316.Q2) and do not resume NCC-1665 Miranda-A build. Advise berth to prepare for Ambassador prototype in 2316
  • SF Berth 1 (1mt) – Occupied with Miranda-A build as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q1)
  • SF Berth 2 (1mt) - Occupied with Miranda-A build as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q1)
  • 40 Eridani Berth A (3mt) – Leave empty after Courageous refit completes (with rush, ETC 2315.Q2)
  • 40 Eridani Berth B (3mt) – Leave empty.
  • 40 Eridani Berth 1 (1mt) – After Intrepid completes refit as Miranda-A in 2315.Q3, switch out with Dryad in Sol sector and begin refit of Dryad in 2315.Q3 (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • 40 Eridani Berth 2 (1mt) - After Eketha completes refit as Miranda-A in 2315.Q3, switch out with Calypso in Licori Border zone and begin refit of Calypso in 2315.Q3 (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • Ana Font Berth A (2.5mt) - Occupied with Excelsior build (ETC 2317.Q1)
  • Ana Font Berth 1 (1mt) - Occupied with Renaissance build (ETC 2317.Q2)
  • LOCF Berth A (2.5mt) – Leave empty.
  • LOCF Berth 1 (1mt) – Begin Renaissance build in 2315.Q2 (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth A (3mt) – After Excelsior completes in 2315.Q2, begin Excelsior-A in 2315.Q2 as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth B (3mt) - Occupied with Excelsior build (ETC 2317.Q1)
  • UP Berth C (3mt) - After Excelsior completes in 2315.Q2, begin Excelsior-A in 2315.Q2 as double build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2318.Q2)
  • UP Berth 1 (1mt) – Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • UP Berth 2 (1mt) - Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)
  • UP Berth 3 (1mt) - Occupied with Renaissance under construction as triple build using Chen's bonus (ETC 2316.Q3)

This keep berths open for repair during the coming war and is the maximally effective build for us over the long term, as building more explorers helps get more combat power under our combat cap due to the benefits of Lone Ranger.
 
However that cuts both ways. Being far away adds maybe an extra quarter to repair time. Being close renders the shipyard vulnerable to raids meant to destroy ships under repair. Imagine a strike at Apinae meant to get in just long enough to lob photon torpedoes into ships under repair, then retreat back again.
Given that Apinae is a major fleet base, and a homeworld, if we can't stop the Cardassians from doing drive-by nukings of major facilities in that star system, we have a lot of problems besides just vulnerability of our repair yards.

This is, however, why I suggested the idea of adding dedicated repair berths to the auxiliary yards at Amarkia. Amarkia's far enough from the front to be reasonably secure. But significantly closer than Sol or Vulcan, which are currently the home roughly 75% of our existing warship berths- 60% if we build the Betazed and Apinae yards and don't expand Utopia Planitia, about 66% if we do buy the expansion.

If only he could get the shields up and running again... Then again, the combat logs indicated that the moment shields regened a bit, Endurance received another barrage of fire from 2 Kalindrax and 2 Hasques, and then some 3 further parting shots before the Sydraxian fleet retreated.
Chekov has a different plan.

Actually, Chekov has multiple different plans, though one of them is not fully formed yet.

Or a decade ago: "Activate EPS Venting Protocols!" :V
No. Just no. :p

Although Commander T'Mela has some counter-boarding ideas she plans to implement. They are in keeping with the very finest Starfleet traditions.

edit: Combat logs do indicate that the Endurance was pretty much out of the fight at this point (around turn 350)...until the very end when it scored the last two hits a killed a Hasque as her final revenge (around turn 400).
I have plans for that too.
 
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Given that Apinae is a major fleet base, and a homeworld, if we can't stop the Cardassians from doing drive-by nukings of major facilities in that star system, we have a lot of problems besides just vulnerability of our repair yards.

I think that getting past patrols is a non-trivial problem, but in principle a base strike that lasts only long enough to target shipyards is a very real possibility. It's the sort of tactic I expect both sides to try in an extended war. A Starbase provides a lot less protection when you're not looking to disable it entirely, only take a pounding from it long enough to hit one particular target and then retreat. In fact we may try that exact strategy on some Licori worlds during the upcoming war.

The question will be if the damage you do to the shipyards and any ships under construction/repair is worth the damage your own fleet takes fighting their way in and then out again.
 
It's not that I'm disputing that this is a thing that can happen.

It's that finishing off ships in a repair yard at Apinae is going to be much easier said than done. It's entirely possible that a raiding squadron will get intercepted and mobbed by Stingers short of the target and never even get within firing range of any installations of note. I agree that we should 'honor the threat' and prepare against it, but I don't want to dwell on it so much that it starts dominating our strategic calculations more than it should.
_____________________

That being said, because we DO need to honor the threat...

I'd still favor ALSO building up repair yard facilities at Amarkia, farther from the front- or Orion, once they join up. I'd prefer to have these yards performing longer-term repairs, for two reasons:

1) A ship undergoing short-term repairs is more likely to be able to fire up the engines and defend itself in an emergency on twelve hours' notice of approaching Cardassian raiders. Therefore, ships undergoing short-term repairs are less of a risk when placed at a 'shallow' repair yard close to the front.

2) When the time requirement of a repair is only three months, a few weeks' extra transit time is significant. When the repair is going to take a year, not so much.

Thus, 'deep' repairs can more reasonably be assigned to shipyards deep in our territory, where the ships are better protected and where the extra transit time doesn't matter so much.
 
Amarkia and Ferasa should be next in terms of starting new yards. One thing that does help a bit is that Apiata just finished their queenship and I think they can keep that berth free for repairs. Against the Licori we have the infrastructure to repair ships.

Also we have a repair yard underway in the GBZ which will help again.
 
We really should try and get the Starbase repair techs though. Tier 2 lets Starbases repair 2 ships up to cruiser size of any damage, and Outposts repair any escort. Would practically double our available yards.
 
Yes. We really could use a second aux yard.

Been saying that for a while.
 
Yes. We really could use a second aux yard.

Been saying that for a while.

*EDIT*

You've been saying it and the option keeps not appearing, so evidently an auxiliary yard is a difficult sell for some reason. Personally, I've been kind of glad because it lets us spend points on things I find more interesting and gratifying than a second auxiliary yard with a clear conscience.

"I supposed technically we could use another auxiliary yard," (expression of resigned pain and lack of enthusiasm) "but the option isn't there so I suppose we have *no choice* but to buy this far cooler stuff!" (huge grin of happiness)

Just out of curiosity, if you had to go back to the last couple of Snakepit votes and say "this ~40 points of political will should have been spent on a second auxiliary yard rather than THIS", what would THIS have been? That is, what things do you think we've bought that should have been sacrificed in favor of a second auxiliary yard, had the option been available? (Which to be fair, it wasn't.)
 
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From the earlier post where the QM actually laid out who owns the transports and how many they need, there is actually enough shipping in the Federation for the current demands.

What there isn't, is Star Fleet owned transports - we are 'borrowing' a lot of shipping from our members.

They have enough excess that it isn't too strenuous (yet), but the fact that we have been long term borrowing their hulls is annoying to the members, hence the Aux yard that we now have.
The short fall isn't enough to drive a demand for a second Aux yard at this time - if the Federation grows massively (again) or we take some serious transport losses, then that may change.

If I remember correctly, the bulk of the Aux yard is producing non-transport shipping as it is, so the dicesion makers of what goes in there obviously feel that the transport issue isn't that severe.
 
Well, we are expecting a second massive expansion once the Moratorium expires. So maybe we should anticipate that by getting the yard in place beforehand. That would prevent future political crises, which I am not keen about, and may in fact prevent a second moratorium.
 
Well, we are expecting a second massive expansion once the Moratorium expires. So maybe we should anticipate that by getting the yard in place beforehand. That would prevent future political crises, which I am not keen about, and may in fact prevent a second moratorium.

Yeah since were looking at 6 or so additional members in the 3 years following the moratorium ending this is a good idea. I think we should request an expansion option for the aux yard at Amarkia to be available. Instead of creating a new one just add more berths to the current. That way we can get additional freighters into service.
 
Well, we are expecting a second massive expansion once the Moratorium expires. So maybe we should anticipate that by getting the yard in place beforehand. That would prevent future political crises, which I am not keen about, and may in fact prevent a second moratorium.

It feels like you ignored what he just said, though. The Member Worlds have enough excess shipping capacity that devoting some of their ships to supplying Starfleet isn't actually a big deal. It's an annoyance, but they don't begrudge it all that much. A second massive expansion due to new members would just result in the status quo, as those new members would also have excess shipping capacity they could avoid to devote to the cause. In other words, it's not actually as big a deal as we're making it out to be.

The fact that it gets brought up regularly isn't so much a sign of serious unrest as it is a way for member worlds to occasionally yank on Starfleet's chain and remind us we can't operate without them. In a way I think some of them may enjoy having it to complain about and hold over our head.
 
By the way, the vote is still open. Would anyone consider switching their vote to "Make Vulcans Repair Everything" like I did?

It delays a couple of refits by 2 quarters, and in return it gives more flexibility for repairs in the second half of 2315 (just when we expect the war to be at its hottest). For me it's less about not taking Mirandas out of service to refit them. I don't care about that. It's about having those berths free and being able to shuffle around where we start the refits in 2315. I kind of like the proposal floating around to do a massive 4-Renaissance parallel build in the Vulcan shipyard berths.
 
The fact that it gets brought up regularly isn't so much a sign of serious unrest as it is a way for member worlds to occasionally yank on Starfleet's chain and remind us we can't operate without them. In a way I think some of them may enjoy having it to complain about and hold over our head.

Great.

However, we are Starfleet. We don't like that. And we already know we need them for anything like, say, a full-scale war. (Of which we expect one in the near future.) I'm sure that as much as they enjoy being able to occasionally berate us for growing beyond our means, they would be much happier if we acted competently to address the problem.
 
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It feels like you ignored what he just said, though. The Member Worlds have enough excess shipping capacity that devoting some of their ships to supplying Starfleet isn't actually a big deal. It's an annoyance, but they don't begrudge it all that much. A second massive expansion due to new members would just result in the status quo, as those new members would also have excess shipping capacity they could avoid to devote to the cause. In other words, it's not actually as big a deal as we're making it out to be.

The fact that it gets brought up regularly isn't so much a sign of serious unrest as it is a way for member worlds to occasionally yank on Starfleet's chain and remind us we can't operate without them. In a way I think some of them may enjoy having it to complain about and hold over our head.

So? We should fix it.

By the way, the vote is still open. Would anyone consider switching their vote to "Make Vulcans Repair Everything" like I did?

It delays a couple of refits by 2 quarters, and in return it gives more flexibility for repairs in the second half of 2315 (just when we expect the war to be at its hottest). For me it's less about not taking Mirandas out of service to refit them. I don't care about that. It's about having those berths free and being able to shuffle around where we start the refits in 2315. I kind of like the proposal floating around to do a massive 4-Renaissance parallel build in the Vulcan shipyard berths.

I'd rather get those refits going. I don't think we need quite that much flexibility in repairs. Member berths will be freeing up after the Lora repairs at around that time.

We definitely don't have the crew for a Rennie 4-build and then sustain construction after. That's even more E-intensive than the 2 E-A 2 Rennie plan.
 
I'm actually wondering if Starfleet's reliance on member fleet auxiliaries was an intentional state of affairs established in 2300 or so, as continuing fallout from the Rogers admiralty or maybe even before that. From an in-game perspective (and not the "logistics mechanics not exposed yet" Doylist reasoning), it's hard to reconcile the apparent fact that Starfleet wasn't building any new auxiliary ships for nearly a decade and a half, unless there was some implicit agreement about their dependency on member fleets. We know, for example, that member fleets have been continuing to build up hospital ships and all other sorts of auxiliaries while Starfleet auxiliary ship production stalled.

Whatever agreement was in place then became further and further strained as the decade wore on as:
a) the Federation kept expanding
b) Starfleet itself kept building more mining colonies on the spinward side while most production facilities were in the tailward side:
The development faction has their eye on something that Starfleet's past decade has been causing behind the scenes that is annoying the member world Councillors. Something to do with a natural consequence of having a whole slew of resource producing colonies on the far spinward frontier of the Federation while your industry is in the far tailward side.

That all said, I find it very interesting that each member fleet's threshold for "logistics strain" is 50% capacity.

Each new colony or space engineering project generally requires a set amount of auxiliaries (both for initial construction and eventual upkeep), so the fact that this is a percentage rather than some more absolute threshold indicates that Federation members are each expanding/developing at a rate that scales with their current auxiliary count (and implied economic scale).

Furthermore, the fact that it's a percentage as "low" as 50% despite that resulting in a large amount of "free" auxiliary ships for larger member fleets (e.g. Amarki's free "3 Super Freighter, 7 Freighter, 4 Cargo Ships", although that cargo ship count is concerning) can in part indicate that they are expecting Starfleet to depend on member fleet auxiliary slack.

OTOH, the 50% threshold is clearly a simplifying abstraction and it might not be binding to any gameplay impact. Well, I could see it being used to estimate political costs of Federation expansion or Starfleet federalization of them, or that the guide member fleet priorities (though the fact that MWCO priority distinctions are made between "Increase Shipping" and "Freighter Expansion" throw this into doubt).
 
It may also be that 50% is the amount they expect to dedicate to space-related projects and materials. That above that 50% they're shipping other things that are less critical but nice to have, and things like exotic fruit that are only grown on Rigel take a backseat if there's "strain".
 
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