Yeah there could totally be civilian priorities for member merchant marine that isn't relevant to Starfleet at all. I have doubts Oneiros is modeling the economic effects that far, but I can easily see logistics strain incurring some sort of political cost (or war support cost).
I don't recall any such plans, not even if the E-As were dropped. SWB did have a plan to start double Rennie builds in both Betazed and 40 Eridani in the 2317 though.
I'm actually wondering if Starfleet's reliance on member fleet auxiliaries was an intentional state of affairs established in 2300 or so, as continuing fallout from the Rogers admiralty or maybe even before that. From an in-game perspective (and not the "logistics mechanics not exposed yet" Doylist reasoning), it's hard to reconcile the apparent fact that Starfleet wasn't building any new auxiliary ships for nearly a decade and a half, unless there was some implicit agreement about their dependency on member fleets. We know, for example, that member fleets have been continuing to build up hospital ships and all other sorts of auxiliaries while Starfleet auxiliary ship production stalled.
Whatever agreement was in place then became further and further strained as the decade wore on as:
a) the Federation kept expanding
b) Starfleet itself kept building more mining colonies on the spinward side while most production facilities were in the tailward side:
That would make sense, also if Starfleet maintained a higher percentage of hospital and engineering ships. Hospital ships since they would be deployed quickly to whatever member world or colony that needed it and engineering ships to get stuff built. Maybe the science ships as well. But the logistics ships would be more amongst the member fleets to give them a check on Starfleet.
My personal canon is that the idea of "Starfleet Shipyards" is relatively new, taking shape in the final couple of decades of the 2200s. Starfleet didn't used to have its own shipyards. Instead it would negotiate with member worlds to have time in their berths and Starfleet construction would just be another type of construction they'd schedule.
The Excelsiors would be what changed that, with them being so much bigger than any other ship that a whole new Shipyard had to be commissioned solely for their production, as none of the member worlds needed a berth that big. That gradually led to the idea that Starfleet should just have its own full-time shipyards and only be able to construct in those, but it's a new thing that took a lot of getting used to. You know how we're building some auxiliary ships in member yards right now? That used to be how it was done all the time.
My personal canon is that the idea of "Starfleet Shipyards" is relatively new, taking shape in the final couple of decades of the 2200s. Starfleet didn't used to have its own shipyards. Instead it would negotiate with member worlds to have time in their berths and Starfleet construction would just be another type of construction they'd schedule.
The Excelsiors would be what changed that, with them being so much bigger than any other ship that a whole new Shipyard had to be commissioned solely for their production, as none of the member worlds needed a berth that big. That gradually led to the idea that Starfleet should just have its own full-time shipyards and only be able to construct in those, but it's a new thing that took a lot of getting used to. You know how we're building some auxiliary ships in member yards right now? That used to be how it was done all the time.
That fits pretty well with the idea that initially the boundaries between Starfleet and UESPA were a lot blurrier, with ships in Kirk's era alternating between being Federation ships or Earth ships. San Francisco shipyard could have been a UESPA shipyard that was the first to be transferred to Starfleet control.
That fits pretty well with the idea that initially the boundaries between Starfleet and UESPA were a lot blurrier, with ships in Kirk's era alternating between being Federation ships or Earth ships. San Francisco shipyard could have been a UESPA shipyard that was the first to be transferred to Starfleet control.
Huh, memory alpha states that the intertwining of Starfleet and UESPA could've lasted until the 2290s:
Article:
With the formation of the Federation in 2161, as per the Federation Charter, United Earth Starfleet, MACO and the deep space and defensive services of the other member worlds were folded into the authority of the Federation. (DS9: "Inquisition"; ENT: "Detained", "Divergence"; Star Trek Beyond)
UESPA was mentioned early in the Original Series, before producers finally settled upon "Starfleet" and the UFP as the Enterprise crew's operating authorities. It was found in background details in Star Trek: Enterprise and on the dedication plaque of the USS Enterprise-B in Star Trek Generations. UESPA was found on the United Earth Starfleet seal seen in "Demons", implying that the UE Starfleet was a division of UESPA or vice versa. It was never mentioned in Star Trek: The Next Generation--although it was mentioned in Star Trek: Voyager. The nature of the relationship between UESPA and the Federation Starfleet was never established.
It is unclear why the fledgling Federation would utilize so many of Earth's space agencies as major contributors to its own Starfleet, especially considering both Vulcan's and Andoria's superior space operations. One theory is paranoia. By placing the fledgling Starfleet in the hands of what was arguably the lesser technologically advanced species, a balance remained amongst the remaining three powers, with none of the four having a significant advantage over the other three. Another explanation might be that, early on, planetary authorities operated inside of yet simultaneously independent of Starfleet, as is the case with the relationship between the European Space Agency and its national members. Whatever the reason, it is clear that – by the 23rd century – Earth could be considered the of Starfleet. Even though less technologically advanced than other members, United Earth was nonetheless a major player in the Federation (for example, acting as its capital) and no doubt had much influence, for example the construction of many Federation ships in the Sol system would have probably used UESPA and Starfleet facilities.
It would also help explain why the Human member fleet is relatively small despite their industrial prowess, as shown in the MWCO income reports and Starfleet's income from them.
There's little benefit to leaving 1mt berths open for repairs. We have member berths for frigate repairs bursting out of our pockets and it's a State of Emergency.
On UESPA, what gets me is how their income is rather more than everyone else's bar our new powerhouses, yet their forces don't quite reflect that. This tells me that perhaps some of their ships were transferred (or expended in war) without affecting their budget. Perhaps the full split with Starfleet was fairly recent, within the current generation of ships.
On UESPA, what gets me is how their income is rather more than everyone else's bar our new powerhouses, yet their forces don't quite reflect that. This tells me that perhaps some of their ships were transferred (or expended in war) without affecting their budget. Perhaps the full split with Starfleet was fairly recent, within the current generation of ships.
Well in that case, it's more like how much damn industry does humanity have, because they're still the biggest contributor to Starfleet out of literally everyone in our Federation. They give double our new members and about 150% of our other old members.
Fleet:
Current – 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase I (5) = 9D
2314.Q4 – 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase I (5) = 6D
Apinae Sector Apinae
- Provides: 50br, 25sr, 10rp, 5pp, 0.0 Officer, 2 Enlisted, 1.5 Tech
- Requires: D12
- Installations: High Comb Station [Starbase I], Grand Hive of the Apiata@Apinae(1 x 2.5mt berth, 4 x 600kt berth)
- Local Currently: 1 Queenship, 5 Little Queenships, 25 Escorts (Stingers/Foragers)
Indoria
- Provides: 25br, 15sr, 5rp, 5pp, 0.5 Officer, 1 Enlisted, 0.5 Tech
- Requires: -
- Installations: Indoria Station [Outpost I], Indoria Drive Yard@Indoria(1 x 2.5mt berth, 1 x 1500kt berth)
- Local Currently: 4 Cruisers, 11 Escorts
Fleet:
Current - 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel], Starbase I (5) [Grand Hive of Apinae], Extra Outposts [5] = 14D
2314.Q4 – 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], Starbase I (5) [Grand Hive of Apinae], Extra Outposts [5] = 13D
Amarkia and Ferasa should be next in terms of starting new yards. One thing that does help a bit is that Apiata just finished their queenship and I think they can keep that berth free for repairs.
By the way, the vote is still open. Would anyone consider switching their vote to "Make Vulcans Repair Everything" like I did?
It delays a couple of refits by 2 quarters, and in return it gives more flexibility for repairs in the second half of 2315 (just when we expect the war to be at its hottest). For me it's less about not taking Mirandas out of service to refit them. I don't care about that. It's about having those berths free and being able to shuffle around where we start the refits in 2315. I kind of like the proposal floating around to do a massive 4-Renaissance parallel build in the Vulcan shipyard berths.
I'd rather get those refits going. I don't think we need quite that much flexibility in repairs. Member berths will be freeing up after the Lora repairs at around that time.
We definitely don't have the crew for a Rennie 4-build and then sustain construction after. That's even more E-intensive than the 2 E-A 2 Rennie plan.
The point is we can have that debate later. It is entirely possible that we'll have two damaged explorers and several cruisers and frigates needing heavy repair work by 2315Q2 and Q3. We may run into political problems if we're relying so heavily on member worlds due to having not taken basic precautions like clearing some of our own yards to help take up the slack. I know if I were on the Council and Starfleet were asking my homeworld fleet to hand over berth space because they couldn't be bothered to delay a Miranda refit, I'd be a bit cranky.
As to whether or not we can or should do this or that thing with the yard at Vulcan starting in 2316... we can have that argument next year, when we know how many ships we've lost in the war and what our crew situation is like after the war's casualties. Maybe we should just refit the last three Mirandas and an Excelsior in that yard next year. Maybe that'll be all we can afford. We don't know yet, so why not avoid pre-committing?
I think it's not so much repairs as it is the crew crunch. We can't keep building ships as fast as our industry allows us to do in theory. We've already come damn close to having ships commission without enough people aboard to fly them. We actually HAVE more physical berth space, space that was never allocated under any of the existing plans, just to avoid 'bottoming out' our budget and to make sure there's room to start the Ambassador prototype on time.
The Apiata are still building up their overall fleet very vigorously, and they can't do that
I believe you're the one who wrote the original "refit Mirandas" plan, so if you've switched over...
Cool.
The point is we can have that debate later. It is entirely possible that we'll have two damaged explorers and several cruisers and frigates needing heavy repair work by 2315Q2 and Q3. We may run into political problems if we're relying so heavily on member worlds due to having not taken basic precautions like clearing some of our own yards to help take up the slack. I know if I were on the Council and Starfleet were asking my homeworld fleet to hand over berth space because they couldn't be bothered to delay a Miranda refit, I'd be a bit cranky.
As to whether or not we can or should do this or that thing with the yard at Vulcan starting in 2316... we can have that argument next year, when we know how many ships we've lost in the war and what our crew situation is like after the war's casualties. Maybe we should just refit the last three Mirandas and an Excelsior in that yard next year. Maybe that'll be all we can afford. We don't know yet, so why not avoid pre-committing?
I think it's not so much repairs as it is the crew crunch. We can't keep building ships as fast as our industry allows us to do in theory. We've already come damn close to having ships commission without enough people aboard to fly them. We actually HAVE more physical berth space, space that was never allocated under any of the existing plans, just to avoid 'bottoming out' our budget and to make sure there's room to start the Ambassador prototype on time.
Well in that case, it's more like how much damn industry does humanity have, because they're still the biggest contributor to Starfleet out of literally everyone in our Federation. They give double our new members and about 150% of our other old members.
Yet it will not be easy. Even without sworn foes, space is always as full of dangers as it is wonders. And it is ever full of wonders. Exploration is never to be taken lightly. But Starfleet's core mission is exploration, especially with the new peace. An organisation dedicated to seek out new life and new civilisations. I am eager for the task, and finding out what I can bring to Starfleet. Because of my heritage as a...
[X] ... Human, I am familiar with Earth and her awesome industrial power. We are a people who work selflessly to a common good.
One of the very first things we learned, literally key to the very first vote, is that Earth is an "awesome industrial power". Not Tellar Prime. Earth.
Hell yes humans have a lot of industry. An insane amount.
