[X][OPS] Reorganise Starfleet Operations (10pp)

I like most of the deployment idea except stripping the KBZ and RBZ. We've seen that both sides will try shenanigans unless someone is there and watching them. What if we ask the Andorians to send 2-3 ships to the RBZ and the Caitians to send 2-3 ships to the KBZ as their contributions.
 
We already knew the Kaldar's stats. The Kadak-Tor was just a kaldar with an added cloaking device.

They also have 5D to the Jaldun's 4, which means a higher dodge chance as well as more guns. Overall, its probably on par with the Kalindrax, but with a focus on firepower instead of shields.
On the other hand, they're also bigger as I recall. Massing 1.5 megatons instead of 1.2 would tend to cancel out the advantage of Defense 5 over Defense 4.

@OneirosTheWriter it makes some sense that the Apiata didn't benefit from our tactical analyisis bonuses (using a very different doctrine means that they can't fight the Cardassians quite the same way Starfleet would), but why did they get neither comms bonus nor the bonus to shield regen?
Given how recent the shield regeneration bonus is, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a delay for the member world fleets in adapting it to their own ships. That's a slight obstacle even for people who use Starfleet designs, but the Apiata almost certainly don't, and their shield generators probably don't even have component compatibility with ours.

Galen Toor will likely be reprimanded by his own government for shitty strategy. They are Amarki. They don't like shitty strategy. However, I will repeat that we can not use this as leverage. Edit: As @Briefvoice pointed out, he's also a national hero. At best, they might actually just tell him he had a bad idea.
They're Amarki, they like glory. That doesn't mean they're stupid glory hounds, but it does mean that if a badass national hero makes a decision that is arguably beneficial to his fleet, arguably necessary to his fleet, and if nothing bad happens... He's not going to be reprimanded. Maybe gently criticized a little bit kinda sorta, but that's not even in the same league as 'reprimand.'

Toor seems rather attached to the idea of a properly composed combined arms fleet. Damn rule abiders :V

Something to note about the upcoming war with the Licori. We need to think about objectives. In the GBZ, it's a territory game and an excuse to eliminate power by wrecking fleets, but in the case of the AE our basic objective is to get them to stop using mentats to conduct dangerous experiments. Since we are doing this by way of a war, the strategic objective is to put ourselves into a position where we can dictate terms to mentat users.

I wonder, therefore, if Rachel Ainsworth is more suited to that war than the GBZ. Once it goes hot for Starfleet, transferring her there would not be seen as a demotion, and Sousa might even be able to spin it as "good work, but here's an even more pressing emergency". Then we can fix our diplo issue without ruffling feathers or kicking Ainsworth out despite her crushing victories. And it's also somewhere where we need a very high pace of operations; the initial plans Tactical had were referred to as a blitz.
The problem is that we're going to be working with the Ked Paddah (who have little or no prior relations with us), and the Gaeni (who we have lots of prior relations with, but many of them are infuriating; they're not easy to workwith). An undiplomatic officer could cost us very heavily there.

Now, if we could put someone else in charge of the liaison duties (say, Nash, who's really good at liaising, and not just in the double entendre sense), and put AInsworth in charge of the battle fleet... that might actually work.

And I think that waiting till something bad happens till we remplacement her would be a mistake (and honestly doesn't seem link that smart of argument to me). We have had several instances where her low people skills coupled with her highly aggressive course led to highly dangerous situations/robbed us of potential support in key moments. If the Cards had appeared with a bigger fleet (for example by getting one of their allies to join in) this one event could have easily undone all of our previous success.
Put this way, so far she's been responsible for three major battles or multi-part battles, and a host of minor ones. She's decisively won two of the three battles, with the third being a draw or possibly a short-term tactical reverse. The minor decisions have mostly worked out pretty well.

We're never going to find a commander who wins literally all the battles. Everyone has a weakness, everyone can lose sometimes or in some way. If we're going to replace Ainsworth, we need to do it in a way that indicates we're rewarding her for good service, not firing her because we're afraid she'll do a worse job than someone else who might take the same spot. Because frankly, such fears are ill-founded. It's hard to think of anyone we could have picked for the Gabriel Expanse commander who would have done a better job.
 
[X][OPS] Reorganise Starfleet Operations (10pp)

I think I'd like the Enterprise over there. If some mad scientists have to be stopped from unleashing galaxy-destroying superweapons in the last possible second it's a job for the Enterprise.
 
Send the Enterprise over to the Licori war to serve as the flagship, with Nash being the flag officer in charge of the force!
 
On the other hand, they're also bigger as I recall. Massing 1.5 megatons instead of 1.2 would tend to cancel out the advantage of Defense 5 over Defense 4.

Given how recent the shield regeneration bonus is, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a delay for the member world fleets in adapting it to their own ships. That's a slight obstacle even for people who use Starfleet designs, but the Apiata almost certainly don't, and their shield generators probably don't even have component compatibility with ours.

They're Amarki, they like glory. That doesn't mean they're stupid glory hounds, but it does mean that if a badass national hero makes a decision that is arguably beneficial to his fleet, arguably necessary to his fleet, and if nothing bad happens... He's not going to be reprimanded. Maybe gently criticized a little bit kinda sorta, but that's not even in the same league as 'reprimand.'

The problem is that we're going to be working with the Ked Paddah (who have little or no prior relations with us), and the Gaeni (who we have lots of prior relations with, but many of them are infuriating; they're not easy to workwith). An undiplomatic officer could cost us very heavily there.

Now, if we could put someone else in charge of the liaison duties (say, Nash, who's really good at liaising, and not just in the double entendre sense), and put AInsworth in charge of the battle fleet... that might actually work.

Put this way, so far she's been responsible for three major battles or multi-part battles, and a host of minor ones. She's decisively won two of the three battles, with the third being a draw or possibly a short-term tactical reverse. The minor decisions have mostly worked out pretty well.

We're never going to find a commander who wins literally all the battles. Everyone has a weakness, everyone can lose sometimes or in some way. If we're going to replace Ainsworth, we need to do it in a way that indicates we're rewarding her for good service, not firing her because we're afraid she'll do a worse job than someone else who might take the same spot. Because frankly, such fears are ill-founded. It's hard to think of anyone we could have picked for the Gabriel Expanse commander who would have done a better job.

Oh I agree I think she did a beautiful job so far (though her low people skill resulted in us losing out in some opportunities) and was indeed the perfect choice for commander but I think the strategic situation has changed to a significant degree, especially if we get heavily involved in the Licori campaign. A aggressive campaign like that is a great idea if you have a big enough reserve to deal with any unexpected loss and deal with an unorganised enemy but less so if you deal with somebody prepared and can ill afford to replace losses.

And yeah promoting her/reassigning her during the reorganisation likemail some here suggested seems like a perfect way to do it.
 
Last edited:
What we need for this is a high Diplo commander, given there are going to be three separate fleets against the Licori plus however many member fleets we call on. Coordination with the Gaeni and Ked Paddah is key.

Eaton, I think. Heck, we can essentially transfer the ASTF command straight into this. The commanders are essentially what we're looking for. Aggressive, with a great deal of Nerve, but more importantly, high Politics and Diplo.
 
Some thoughts on our objectives and strategy here. We have three options for offensive operations-commerce raiding, colony attacks, and decapitation strike, in order of ascending force requirements and descending speed of decision. If we can muster enough force to decisively decapitate the empire by seizing the orbitals of Morshadd and humiliating the Emperor and all his houses the war will be over 'by Christmas' to use the old chestnut. This may have a deleterious effect in future relations however, as such a humiliating blow can be difficult to swallow. Conversely, commerce raiding is unlikely to force a rapid decisive loss upon the Licori. It's slow, it requires dispersion of forces, convoys will be formed, our raiders lack cloaking devices and are vulnerable to interception, and if we can't destroy or capture merchantmen fast enough, it will merely have a cooling effect on war industry instead of bringing the war to an end. Even if we are wildly successful, this plan takes at least a year or more to stop their war industry, and then however longer they can stand to lick gall and lie on kindling for the sake of vengeance. Seizing a colony world with an outpost and a shipyard would be a middle-ground in terms of both force required and speed of the decision that would result.

A decapitation strike is only practical if we can form a combined command with the Gaenii and the Ked Padesh, and even then will likely require some preliminary victory to pave the way by thinning our opposition forces out. We should assume that as long as the enemy has any explorers still in the field, we should field N+3 explorers to attack any system with a starbase where N is the number of explorers still in their fleet. On the other hand, Starfleet+member fleet volunteer forces, provided they are unified under a central command structure rather than the volunteer structure currently in force in the Gabriel border zone, may be able to take and hold Ixira or Gesseria or even Gammon. For commerce raiding operations, Starfleet will likely need no direct assistance, though raider squadrons from the Member fleets can form up at their preference. Commerce raiders will probably play some role in any plan, but will require rules of engagement-should we allow crews time to get into escape pods before simply destroying them, or attempt to capture ships for our own logistics network? This will require significant additional effort, requiring either to tow the cargo ships back to friendly territory, or to form them into a large convoy that can be escorted back instead.
 
[X][OPS] Reorganise Starfleet Operations (10pp)

// For the Licori war - do we have enough fast reaction forces to timely stop a science cruiser playing with a sun?
 
This is good, but I'd also like to send the A'Tuin or another nearby 5YM ship. Our fleet to counter their fleet, and our wacky protagonist hijinks to counter their mentat superweapons.

With regards to tactics, I'd also stress the importance of multiple attack vectors. We don't want to clump our fleet together in one spot where a superweapon can take it all out.

I want to call in the Explorer Corps. All of it. We really cannot afford half-measures here. I'd also request a State of Emergency since the justification seems to be "Mentats are an existential threat to sapient life" and we'll need directed anti-Mentat research and focused diplomacy on the Ked Paddah.
 
Dear Romulans and Klingons,

I hear that you both like war and can agree that there's already enough crazy in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants without these mentats mucking things up. So do either of you want in on this?

Sincerely,

The United Federation of Planets
 
Hrm, there are good arguments for a SOE, since that lets us call on as many ships as we need. Question is, is a SOE overkill for this particular situation?
 
Hrm, there are good arguments for a SOE, since that lets us call on as many ships as we need. Question is, is a SOE overkill for this particular situation?
While unlike the last emergency where we had one scary foe rather than several less scary ones, I have to agree with Brief's thoughts from earlier:

Bah. If the Council declared it was a true wartime SOE rather than just a play-war, we could easily peel enough ships off garrison duty to seriously fight the Licori in conjunction with the Gaeni. The problem only comes if the Council wants us to:
1. Fight a war of choice in Gabriel with member fleets helping only if they feel like it.
2. Fight a war of choice with the Licori with member fleets helping only if they feel like it.
3. Maintain peacetime garrison levels like nothing exciting is happening.

We can do two of the three, but all three is too much, and I hope Sousa can explain that to the President.

If they want Starfleet to make a meaningful contribution, they should declare SoE, otherwise we'll probably have nothing but token forces and whatever EC ships we're willing to risk.
 
Look at the damage dealt numbers. Stingers and the Apiata doctrine of putting them first is insane. I'll have to chew the battle log but I do suspect they don't have the endurance for longer fights. Also @OneirosTheWriter maybe you still need up tweak the numbers for Apiata doctrine, the Queenships are about 1/4 of damage dealt, shots, and damage taken, which is perhaps too much. 1/2 would be perfectly acceptable.
The Apiata doctrine seems to be designed around the idea that attritional losses to Stingers is acceptable as long as they do enough harm to the enemy to compensate, which in this case they did.

The serious problem with the Stinger design and the overall concept is that the Shield:Hull ratio is so high that even a few burnthrough shots can cause serious damage. The Queenships staying out of battle may be hampering them a little, but it also means that even when they're in danger of losing a battle, they usually won't suffer significant damage to their hard-to-repair Queenships. They have plenty of berths to build and repair more Stingers, after all.

Tweaking the odds on Queenship engagement levels wouldn't hurt, but really, the Apiata doctrine will work fine, given the Apiata willingness to expend a few small ships for the sake of the fleet as a whole, once they refit or upgrade to a Hull 2 Shields X stinger design.

This is good, but I'd also like to send the A'Tuin or another nearby 5YM ship. Our fleet to counter their fleet, and our wacky protagonist hijinks to counter their mentat superweapons.
I'd like to send more than one. Especially if the one we send is A'Tuin, whose crew is inexperienced. They'd be fine for normal Explorer Corps operations, but it's entirely possible that they're going to be in "top ten weirdest days of Eddie Leslie's life" territory here.

We didn't send the Explorer Corps into the Gabriel Expanse precisely because numbers and firepower mattered more than the art of dealing with the weird over there. In Licori space, we're going to need the weird.

As I said before - I don't think that we have so far established that a) the Mentat was actually under the control of the Licori government and not a rogue agent b) I don't think the Licori have had the intention to hurt us/attack us.
Remember the part where it doesn't matter anymore because the politicians in question have made up their minds...

That said... this is really awful timing. Ideally, I'd want to sit this one out entirely, and let the KP+Gaeni fight it out. Alternatively, I'd look at a map, and then discreetly pass word to the Romulan Ambassador that the Licori would probably be best off as a Romulan client, where their dangerous tendencies can be kept in check via the use of measures which we ourselves are reluctant to take.
Alternatively, this results in the Romulans getting their hands on supernova bombs. That is not going to end well. Nor can we sit out the war, because even if the Gaeni and Ked Peddah have equal firepower and put together outgun the Licori 2:1...

A victory at 2:1 odds can be slow but sure, or fast and risky. Fast and risky is bad for us in this context, but slow and sure is a recipe for disaster because it buys the Licori too much time. The Council has already decided that we HAVE to push the Licori because even when we didn't push them they triggered two astronomical disasters within our space during about a year or so of time. And we weren't even fighting them at all back then, indeed we were on better terms with them than with the Ked Peddah!

That being said, if the Federation has decided it wants this to be a war, the Federation had better take it seriously. If we are planning to defeat the Licori and prevent them from doing those things that scare us, we need to go in expecting an existential threat, because they have already demonstrated that they have that kind of capability. Against any argumentation on that point, have Astrometrics compile a list of aging stars in the area, and the blast radius should any of them be induced to go supernova via application of already-demonstrated Licori capabilities. Given that level of threat, I would insist that a state of war between the Federation and the Licori constitutes a State of Emergency, and that if we do not take the appropriate precautions (including the full mobilization and support of the Federation's scientific establishments in countering Licori superweapons), we can expect wildly disproportionate losses.
I think a state of emergency might well be an appropriate response, or at least a localized one including Sol, Rigel, and Vulcan sectors, which are most directly threatened by (literal) fallout from the conflict.

Oh I agree I think she did a beautiful job so far (though her low people skill resulted in us losing out in some opportunities) and was indeed the perfect choice for commander but I think the strategic situation has changed to a significant degree, especially if we get heavily involved in the Licori campaign. A aggressive campaign like that is a great idea if you have a big enough reserve to deal with any unexpected loss and deal with an unorganised enemy but less so if you deal with somebody prepared and can ill afford to replace losses.
I see no evidence that Ainsworth doesn't know how to scale back her operational tempo when she knows we can't reinforce her. Furthermore, if you're worried about her doing something stupid right this minute you're probably out of luck, because finding a new slot for her and moving her to it will take time anyway.

You make personnel decisions like this to manage time-averaged risk, not to manage short-term 'spikes' of risk brought on by sudden developments.
 
on the apiata, thing is that the stinger crews are drones, right? so... how much impact drone casualty has on their society at large?
 
Rachel Ainsworth freezes as still as a gargoyle, motionless for long heartbeats. Finally her head begins to come around with dreadful slowness.

"What, pray tell, Lieutenant, do you mean, 'the Amarkians will be late'?"

The pasty-faced junior officer blanches and stammers, his Andorian antenna twitching wildly. "W-well, Admiral, you see, they returned to Bean's Star and began post-battle diagnostics and maintenance. They aren't ready to deploy."

For several seconds Ainsworth says nothing, just quivering with a rising pitch. Finally she raises her hands in and bursts out with, "Galen Toor! You idiot!"

"He..." begins the Lieutenant again, before he pauses to gulp. "He also asked how many pounds of flesh you want from his command, as he would be going into battle with no cruiser support..."

"Inform the good Admiral...," begins Ainsworth in a poisonous tone before she stops and composes herself. "I'll send a message myself. Meanwhile, inform Admiral Nerzizza that she will need to slow the Cardassian advance until we can move into support of the outpost."

so honest question here, was this incompetence where he put his fleet out of commission for maintenance whiteout thinking about the likely follow up strike, or is this deliberate malice where he acted to not be there when the cardasiasn showed up? Because if it wasn't for the amazingly well done holding actions we could have just found ourselves pushed out of the expanse because toor either fucked up or threw a snit fit.
 
so honest question here, was this incompetence where he put his fleet out of commission for maintenance whiteout thinking about the likely follow up strike, or is this deliberate malice where he acted to not be there when the cardasiasn showed up? Because if it wasn't for the amazingly well done holding actions we could have just found ourselves pushed out of the expanse because toor either fucked up or threw a snit fit.

Looks like the low diplomacy has caused the Amarkian fleet command to throw a shit fit.
 
on the apiata, thing is that the stinger crews are drones, right? so... how much impact drone casualty has on their society at large?
Pretty sure they're workers, and moreover the Apiata don't really value workers and drones as highly as their precious queens. They'll probably be over it far quicker than our citizens with our own casualties.
 
Wish we were a bit friendlier with the Ked Paddah so they we could coordinate more effectively against the Licori.

That would've been nice but people wanted to make nice with the Apiata's evil cousins...

What we need most of all is to get Starfleet, the Member Fleets, the Gaeni, Ked Paddah, and if possible the Romulans all on the same page and working together.

The Federation Diplomatic Service is our most important asset and the President/Council must be convinced of this before we go forward.

I'll go catch up on the entire past 8 hours.
 
Looks like the low diplomacy has caused the Amarkian fleet command to throw a shit fit.

While Oneiros has mentioned poor diplo, both the chain of events and the wording makes me wonder... It is possible the Armaki admiral thought Starfleet was using his fleet as cannon fodder, but failed to properly address the matter in a timely manner.
Think, for a WWII analogy, This is analogous (or a little less damning) to Halsey's screw up in Samar

Pretty sure they're workers, and moreover the Apiata don't really value workers and drones as highly as their precious queens. They'll probably be over it far quicker than our citizens with our own casualties.

Right, workers, unfertile females, drones are sometimes what the male wasps are called, iirc, and the apiata are more bee-like, but that is my point, since they are more expendable than queens and their society might find their deaths less unacceptable than most sentients would.
On an ugly thought imagine a species based off spider wasps...
 
While Oneiros has mentioned poor diplo, both the chain of events and the wording makes me wonder... It is possible the Armaki admiral thought Starfleet was using his fleet as cannon fodder, but failed to properly address the matter in a timely manner.
Think, for a WWII analogy, This is analogous (or a little less damning) to Halsey's screw up in Samar

that might actually be what happened. It's the kind of fear that someone willing to risk and sacrifice ships might instill if they were not properly diplomatic. Hell there might even be a nugget of truth to it, from a cold calculus of war standpoint the Armaki can better replace lost crew and repair damaged ships right now, that might show up at least a little on the strategic level.
 
on the apiata, thing is that the stinger crews are drones, right? so... how much impact drone casualty has on their society at large?
Workers, not drones- drones are breeders and 'mother' the offspring, while workers are basically asexual.

And to answer your real question... Worker casualties seem to have very little effect on Apiata society at large. When an Apiata colony ship is endangered, Apiata workers will riot, not to get themselves positions on evacuation transports, but to get their queens on the transports.

so honest question here, was this incompetence where he put his fleet out of commission for maintenance whiteout thinking about the likely follow up strike, or is this deliberate malice where he acted to not be there when the cardasiasn showed up? Because if it wasn't for the amazingly well done holding actions we could have just found ourselves pushed out of the expanse because toor either fucked up or threw a snit fit.
This is almost certainly not malice on the part of the Amarki.
 
that might actually be what happened. It's the kind of fear that someone willing to risk and sacrifice ships might instill if they were not properly diplomatic. Hell there might even be a nugget of truth to it, from a cold calculus of war standpoint the Armaki can better replace lost crew and repair damaged ships right now, that might show up at least a little on the strategic level.

indeed, and it makes this whole thing puzzling, how did the Armaki admiral got the idea that Ainsworth was going to use his force as cannon fodder? (this goes against Starfleet at the core, and he should know that by now). we do need to study and find if something Ainsowrth said or did gave him that idea and make inroads to avoid this repeating, ever again.
So, we do need some sort of coordination office even for Greenlighted fleets, some framework, as minimalist as possible, perhaps with exchange officers in each other's staff? some sort of barebones coordination nexus?

Workers, not drones- drones are breeders and 'mother' the offspring, while workers are basically asexual.

And to answer your real question... Worker casualties seem to have very little effect on Apiata society at large. When an Apiata colony ship is endangered, Apiata workers will riot, not to get themselves positions on evacuation transports, but to get their queens on the transports.

Yeah I realized my naming mistake in an earlier post. on any case, it is my point, Random, Apiata Psychology and, in particular, regarding Workers, explains why they use the ships they use. they can afford to loose those crews. we can probably create a joint battlefield study bureau? to offer recommendation on the member forces that opt to keep non-standard fleets (composed mostly by Starfleet members from those species... I am guessing Caitians, Apiatas, maybe armakians and add some Vulcan as mediator/leader. note, this would be recommendations ONLY (would also serve as a good place for our ship designers to spend a season or two, exposing them to other design philosophies)

This is almost certainly not malice on the part of the Amarki.

Most likely, we do need to do a review on the event, though. there might have been other reasons and, regardless of malice, miscommunication or accident, I think we can all agree we need to avoid a repeat in the future, specially if more things are at the stake
 
Back
Top