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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Isn't this an opportunity to have one of our member worlds build some freighters, to further reduce the logistics issues we're starting to run into?
So something like:
[X][PRIORITY] Betazed - Short Term - Freighter Expansion

[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][AUX] Start 1 Hospital Ship, 1 Engineering Ship, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Back the Excelsior build (-10pp, Hawks pleased, Development displeased)
 
Briefvoice said:
I'm not sure I agree with that. Just as an example, right now we only have two Colony ships and two Prospector ships in the GBZ. If they can send one of each, that would increase our rate of resource colony development by 50%. And while they can't send a large force, a couple of extra frigates would be more than welcome.
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problem with this is that they would be sending the ships but relying on somebody else to pull escort duty, namely starfleet, if anything happens to those ships we would have to respond with pp, at the very least, loose face and might trigger internal issues.

On any case, this would mean our escort detachment will have more requirements put onto them.

It is a risk, but we've already had to fend of a cloak attack, if against an Excelsior under tow, and while this doesn't mean the enemy cloaks won't be let loose on our civilian shipping... I'd rather wait and see if we can do some damage to the carides before having more ships to protect in the GBZ or after we can add in a few more ships to the GBZ fleet
 
Plan: Catian Cargo and Excelsior, Betazed Starbase and Rennie, Colony Ship, amd Indorian tour
[X][PRIORITY] Change Caitian Short Term Priority to "Build Cargo Ships"
[X][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Back the Excelsior build (-10pp, Hawks pleased, Development displeased)
 
[X][PRIORITY] Vulcan should change their Mid-Term priority to increasing their BR and SR income
[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Decline

I was originally for the caitian Excelsior, but some of the arguments above were valid and sensible.

What I've been considering, is changing the Vulcan mid-term priority of increasing defense. They're an interior sector that only borders romulan space and we're negotiating a non aggression pact with them. We could possibly change that priority to increasing the intake of br/sr which would indirectly help us. Or something. I'm not so well versed in our financials that I can truly comment here.

Also, I'd like to note that the MWCO is apparently taking some small issue with the fact that Amarkia isn't swapping toward the Rennie. I don't really have any issues with this, but I'm wondering about the reasoning.
 
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[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]
[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Decline
 
Briefvoice said:
Like the Sydraxians are doing to prepare for us right now. ~:(
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Yeah. I suspect if we draw the conflict out for a few more years then the Sydraxian economy may explode under the stress. Doubly so if we can keep them separated from the Cardassians. Unfortunately, that tactic is likely to lead to a lot of civilian suffering.
 
AlphaDelta said:
Plan: Catian Cargo and Excelsior, Betazed Starbase and Rennie, Colony Ship, amd Indorian tour
[X][PRIORITY] Change Caitian Short Term Priority to "Build Cargo Ships"
[...]
[X][CATS] Back the Excelsior build (-10pp, Hawks pleased, Development displeased)
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Are you going out of your way to wreck their economy? Replacing the Economic Recovery priority and also intervening in their internal politics to keep them from diverting resources to civilian use? If you want them to build more shipping you should put it in as mid-term priority, along with declining to intervene to secure a second Excelsior.
 
Briefvoice said:
Like the Sydraxians are doing to prepare for us right now. ~:(
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So if they loose the Gabriel expanse, their economy is liable to collapse, resulting in the population starving and public unrest, with the end result being their relations with Cardassia resetting to 0?
Nervos Belli said:
Yeah. I suspect if we draw the conflict out for a few more years then the Sydraxian economy may explode under the stress. Doubly so if we can keep them separated from the Cardassians. Unfortunately, that tactic is likely to lead to a lot of civilian suffering.
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and? To enact change, oftentimes civilian suffering is a side effect. What is important is that they are better off afterwards than they were before.
 
Nervos Belli said:
Yeah. I suspect if we draw the conflict out for a few more years then the Sydraxian economy may explode under the stress. Doubly so if we can keep them separated from the Cardassians. Unfortunately, that tactic is likely to lead to a lot of civilian suffering.
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Needs must be. Sadly, you can't win everything at the table or even in combat. Economic wars are just part of it. We can send civilian aid, though, when/if the time comes.
 
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Nix said:
Are you going out of your way to wreck their economy? Replacing the Economic Recovery priority and also intervening in their internal politics to keep them from diverting resources to civilian use? If you want them to build more shipping you should put it in as mid-term priority, along with declining to intervene to secure a second Excelsior.
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lbmaian said:
WTF Rigel

Increase your damn budget to use that huge crew surplus
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Good point.

I'm switching it over to Rigel: Resource gathering and budget increase

Plan: Rigel budget, Betazed Starbase and Rennie, Colony Ship, and Indorian tour
[X][PRIORITY] Change: Rigel, Short Term: Resource gathering and Budget increase
[X][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Decline
 
Nervos Belli said:
Yeah. I suspect if we draw the conflict out for a few more years then the Sydraxian economy may explode under the stress. Doubly so if we can keep them separated from the Cardassians. Unfortunately, that tactic is likely to lead to a lot of civilian suffering.
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They'll build up quite a large fleet before their economy explodes, though. We know they've laid down more shipyards and they're at something very near a war-footing. When 10 cruisers and 20 frigates come flying out at us, it's going to be a bad day.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
So if they loose the Gabriel expanse, their economy is liable to collapse, resulting in the population starving and public unrest, with the end result being their relations with Cardassia resetting to 0?

and? To enact change, oftentimes civilian suffering is a side effect. What is important is that they are better off afterwards than they were before.
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That's debatable. It could lead to even more Federation anger if they blame us for the economic downturn, and if the Cardassians can get supplies through they may become more dependent on them.

In general the Federation frowns on people suffering, even if it may lead to better results. The Sydraxian economy collapsing might end the war for a time, but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
Briefvoice said:
Like the Sydraxians are doing to prepare for us right now. ~:(
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Yeah, well, that's all their idea, and we're like eight times bigger than them so it probably won't work. Hopefully they'll learn.

Nix said:
Are you going out of your way to wreck their economy? Replacing the Economic Recovery priority and also intervening in their internal politics to keep them from diverting resources to civilian use? If you want them to build more shipping you should put it in as mid-term priority, along with declining to intervene to secure a second Excelsior.
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The problem is that their mid-term priority is "build a ship we're already building." That's a sunk cost.

@AlphaDelta copied my priority change for the Caitians, which was specifically about advising their fleet to build cargo ships in order to aid in economic recovery. As you point out, it greatly subverts the intentions of that change (renders it downright nonsensical) to try and pressure the Caitians into building a second Excelsior. Which I, for one, did not do.

I think I'm going to go back and write in "add 'build cargo ships' as a priority." The idea isn't to tell them to stop trying to rebuild their economy, it's an attempt to advise their member fleet to relax a little and act in ways more compatible with the welfare of their civilian economy.
 
lbmaian said:
WTF Rigel

Increase your damn budget to use that huge crew surplus

edit: I'm not even going to vote to change their priorities, if they can't figure it out to do it themselves.
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What is wrong with running at a surplus? Better than running at a deficit like what we are heading towards. A nice rainy day supply of material is good for when there is a possibility of losses.
 
EDIT: I have rewritten my PRIORITY vote as:

[][PRIORITY] Add "Build Cargo Ships" to Caitian Priorities, IN ORDER TO aid in Economic Recovery

Nervos Belli said:
That's debatable. It could lead to even more Federation anger if they blame us for the economic downturn, and if the Cardassians can get supplies through they may become more dependent on them.

In general the Federation frowns on people suffering, even if it may lead to better results. The Sydraxian economy collapsing might end the war for a time, but it isn't necessarily a good thing.
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Put this way. If you're right to analyze the problem this way, we're screwed no matter what. If we let the Sydraxians beat us, they're encouraged to keep trying. If we beat them, they'll puff up their war mobilization so big their economy explodes. If we talk to them they get mad, if we don't talk to them they stay mad.

I do not accept that.

It's not even worth discussing the effects of our actions on the Sydraxians, unless we start from the premise that at least some of our possible courses of action are desirable ones. We can't naysay all possible courses of action.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's kind of hilarious that the Humans want in on the GBZ. I'm not going to complain, I guess Humans really do get everywhere, that's practically a racial trait in Star Trek. But they're so far away...
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I think the idea is to help keep the Sydraxians tamped down. Winning the majority of the GBZ is fairly important to all of the sectors that surround the Sydraxians.
 
I'm against helping the Catians with their second Excelsior. We need the Developmentalists on our side more than a ship which might join the GBZ in four years.

Second as someone who lives in New Jersey, the pothole state, I'm more inclined to help the Catian Developmentalists get their house in order.
 
[X][PRIORITY] Add "Build Cargo Ships" to Caitian Priorities, IN ORDER TO aid in Economic Recovery
[X][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[X][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[X][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[X][BETA1] Go for it
[X][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[X][CATS] Decline.
 
Simon_Jester said:
EDIT: I have rewritten my PRIORITY vote as:

[][PRIORITY] Add "Build Cargo Ships" to Caitian Priorities, IN ORDER TO aid in Economic Recovery

Put this way. If you're right to analyze the problem this way, we're screwed no matter what. If we let the Sydraxians beat us, they're encouraged to keep trying. If we beat them, they'll puff up their war mobilization so big their economy explodes. If we talk to them they get mad, if we don't talk to them they stay mad.

I do not accept that.

It's not even worth discussing the effects of our actions on the Sydraxians, unless we start from the premise that at least some of our possible courses of action are desirable ones. We can't naysay all possible courses of action.
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I don't disagree with you. I wasn't saying it's a guaranteed bad outcome, just that the combination of economic downturn and an external enemy can lead to irrationally aggressive behavior. You could also argue that the hawks are already in power, and that the moderates are waiting to take over. We don't have a great picture of Sydraxian internal politics, so it's hard to say. Personally I'm hoping if they lose a few more decisive battles they'll become more amenable to peace.

My fundamental point is that the Federation is a body which values life and sapient welfare highly, so that should be reflected in our strategy. I just want us to keep looking for ways that don't involve high civilian casualties first.
 
[ ][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]
[ ][AUX] Start 1 Colony Ship, 1 Prospector, 2 Cargo Ships
[ ][ANDOR] Swap 55br for 30sr
[ ][INDORIA] Accept - Indorians will be able to produce Renaissances, but 25% chance of a 2Qtr delay
[ ][BETA1] Go for it
[ ][BETA2] Agree - 20% discount on Starbase purchase for Betazed
[ ][CATS] Decline.

Edit: Vote changed.
 
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