To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

kyuden · Feb 16, 2017

Briefvoice said:
Well, it won't be my vote that gives! I'm Ambassador #1.

I think we all know you are the Ambassadors number 1 fan by now.

I think the issue is, assuming war with Cardassia is inevitable (I personally believe it is), what prepares up for the war better. In my opinion:
1) Minimising the ability of the Syndicate to interrupt our operations, to free up future pp income (through reducing cost, which will accelerate the ability to achieve 2 & 3) and reduce the potential for Syndicate sabotage during wartime.
2) Logistics equipment and facilities required to support combat (and research/exploration) operations in the CBZ and GBZ.
3) Future ship classes.

So whilst I like the Ambassador, and I want the Ambassador I think the time to deploy is too long for the conflict on the horizon.

Vehrec · Feb 16, 2017

I think that our deal this session shouldn't be 'what can the factions do for us' but 'what can we do for the factions'. We need to kiss as much ass as possible to claw back some PP to buy a few colonies, or maybe even get some extra Influence to trade for Impact or Resilience. If that means detailed promises for future placement of Starbases to the hawks, or an assurance to the Development faction that we'll let them lay down a Superfreighter somewhere, then I'm all in favor of that kind of deal.

Nervos Belli · Feb 16, 2017

pheonix89 said:
There's also an excelsior refit coming up, which should probably be max priority the instant we can get it because we've got a LOT of work tied up in the Excelsior class.

Forward defense has a tech that appears to mitigate that.

Also I have a sneaking suspicion that mechanic is due for some tweaking. RIght now, RAW, the Apatia and Indorians joining INCREASES the pp cost of an Indoria starbase despite those membership placing people on the council with extremely strong interests in having an Indoria starbase.

Neither of those techs do anything about rising costs for multiple Starbases. One removes the penalty for building in Border Zones, which is good for the first Starbase, and the other gives a blanket 25% discount which partially alleviates the cost, but still the cost increases for every new starbase.

Personally, I like the rules as they are. If we're able to just build as many Starbases as we want, it defeats the point of having to balance our garrison requirements and carefully assign ships, which is something I like. And as to your example, that makes sense to me. Sure the couple of Indorian counselors may want a Starbase, (I say may because some may not want to have to support and maintain such a structure), but the rest of the Council will look at the Apinae sector as a whole and say, "There's a Starbase there already, and you've got outposts all over the place, and there's a fleet besides." So yes, it makes sense to me that the Caitian or Vulcan or Betazoid councillors would hesitate to invest in another major construction project in that sector.

Iron Wolf · Feb 16, 2017

For those worried about the KBZ and RBZ in Anon's plan, there's always the option to pull ships back from core sectors if we need to cover them. Other than that, looking ahead, here's our next batch of ships [restricting it to 2314]:

Currently Under Construction:

1 Excelsior-class (NCC-2014) @ San Francisco Fleet Yards (ETC 2314.Q1 - Crews deduct 2313.Q1)
2 Centaur-A-class (NCC-2124,2125) @ San Francisco Fleet Yards Berth 1,2 (ETC 2314.Q2 - Crews deduct 2313.Q2)
1 Constitution-B @ Ana Font Shipyard Berth 1 (ETC 2314.Q1 - Crews deduct 2313.Q1)
1 Renaissance (Prototype) @ Utopia Planitia Berth 3 (ETC 2314.Q1 - Crews deduct 2313.Q1)

I think we can use those two Centaurs to either go directly to the RBZ, or free the Miranda pair up to return [I'd rather they go for refits]. That, or use the Q1 Excelsior and Q1 Connie-B to move some GBZ ships back to core systems and put a few more ships into RBZ/KBZ. In any case, aside from changing the GBZ deployment pattern later down the line, we're probably looking at two-ship RBZ and KBZ for 'only' a year.

pheonix89 · Feb 16, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
Neither of those techs do anything about rising costs for multiple Starbases. One removes the penalty for building in Border Zones, which is good for the first Starbase, and the other gives a blanket 25% discount which partially alleviates the cost, but still the cost increases for every new starbase.

Personally, I like the rules as they are. If we're able to just build as many Starbases as we want, it defeats the point of having to balance our garrison requirements and carefully assign ships, which is something I like. And as to your example, that makes sense to me. Sure the couple of Indorian counselors may want a Starbase, (I say may because some may not want to have to support and maintain such a structure), but the rest of the Council will look at the Apinae sector as a whole and say, "There's a Starbase there already, and you've got outposts all over the place, and there's a fleet besides." So yes, it makes sense to me that the Caitian or Vulcan or Betazoid councillors would hesitate to invest in another major construction project in that sector.

OK, if you're right that's basically an empty node because the CBZ never had an increased price, and the RBZ had it's price dropped before we built it.

The thing is, the way the mechanics are, the Apatia ratification INCREASES the cost, and the Indoria one doesn't decrease it. Somehow adding one group to the council with an extremely strong interest in making Indoria a harder nut to crack boosts it, and adding a second doesn't lower it. That really makes very little sense IC.

And remember when the Vega Starbase got shunted to the new SBZ? That magically lowered the cost of a Betazed Starbase.

Of course, looking at which member species came with starbases (all the industrial/military/expansionist types) and the strategic situation I have a sneaking suspicion at some point we'll see "Build Indoria Starbase" pop up in the MWCO, so the example may be moot. They are engineering/industrial heavy.

pheonix89 · Feb 16, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
For those worried about the KBZ and RBZ in Anon's plan, there's always the option to pull ships back from core sectors if we need to cover them. Other than that, looking ahead, here's our next batch of ships [restricting it to 2314]:

I think we can use those two Centaurs to either go directly to the RBZ, or free the Miranda pair up to return [I'd rather they go for refits]. That, or use the Q1 Excelsior and Q1 Connie-B to move some GBZ ships back to core systems and put a few more ships into RBZ/KBZ. In any case, aside from changing the GBZ deployment pattern later down the line, we're probably looking at two-ship RBZ and KBZ for 'only' a year.

That Excelsior is EC. Which admittedly probably puts in onto team "Give Cardassia a bad time" in the GBZ, what with either T'Rinta commanding it and putting it a leg up on Lorgots (C is equalized, up a point of Shields and Hull) or Demora Sulu running around going trolololol I have +1 everything on intel work.

Nervos Belli · Feb 16, 2017

pheonix89 said:
OK, if you're right that's basically an empty node because the CBZ never had an increased price, and the RBZ had it's price dropped before we built it.

The thing is, the way the mechanics are, the Apatia ratification INCREASES the cost, and the Indoria one doesn't decrease it. Somehow adding one group to the council with an extremely strong interest in making Indoria a harder nut to crack boosts it, and adding a second doesn't lower it. That really makes very little sense IC.

And remember when the Vega Starbase got shunted to the new SBZ? That magically lowered the cost of a Betazed Starbase.

Of course, looking at which member species came with starbases (all the industrial/military/expansionist types) and the strategic situation I have a sneaking suspicion at some point we'll see "Build Indoria Starbase" pop up in the MWCO, so the example may be moot. They are engineering/industrial heavy.

I suspect in this particular case, Oneiros may give a discount for an Indorian Starbase because of the increased risk of war on that front. The Federation Council isn't entirely inflexible, and they can certainly recognize when a system might desperately need the extra protection. But in general, yes it makes sense for the Council to be hesitant to spend resources, personnel, and cargo capacity on yet another Starbase.

Iron Wolf · Feb 16, 2017

pheonix89 said:
That Excelsior is EC. Which admittedly probably puts in onto team "Give Cardassia a bad time" in the GBZ, what with either T'Rinta commanding it and putting it a leg up on Lorgots (C is equalized, up a point of Shields and Hull) or Demora Sulu running around going trolololol I have +1 everything on intel work.

I thought it might be EC earmarked but worth mentioning in any case.

I personally will be hoping Chad gets that one so he can start training up.

AKuz · Feb 16, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
I thought it might be EC earmarked but worth mentioning in any case.

I personally will be hoping Chad gets that one so he can start training up.

GAINS!

Briefvoice · Feb 16, 2017

[X] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

Okay, sure, why not.....

Briefvoice · Feb 16, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
For those worried about the KBZ and RBZ in Anon's plan, there's always the option to pull ships back from core sectors if we need to cover them. Other than that, looking ahead, here's our next batch of ships [restricting it to 2314]:

I think we can use those two Centaurs to either go directly to the RBZ, or free the Miranda pair up to return [I'd rather they go for refits]. That, or use the Q1 Excelsior and Q1 Connie-B to move some GBZ ships back to core systems and put a few more ships into RBZ/KBZ. In any case, aside from changing the GBZ deployment pattern later down the line, we're probably looking at two-ship RBZ and KBZ for 'only' a year.

This is actually missing the three Miranda-As we voted to start, which are ETC Q3.

AlphaDelta · Feb 16, 2017

Iron Wolf said:
I thought it might be EC earmarked but worth mentioning in any case.

I personally will be hoping Chad gets that one so he can start training up.

Here are the EC ships.

OneirosTheWriter said:
- USS Enterprise, Excelsior-class, Elite, C10 S9 H7 L8 P10 D6
-- Captain: Samhaya Mrr'shan (+1 C, +1 P) 2311-2316
- USS Courageous, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S7 H5 L6 P7 D6
-- Captain: Rosalee McAdams (gain re-roll for Combat Rolls) 2310-2315
- USS Sarek, Excelsior-class, Veteran, C8 S8 H7 L7 P8 D6
-- Captain: Straak, re-roll Surprise Encounter events 2311-2316
-- T'Pirit, 50% chance of voiding 1st casualty in a turn
- USS Miracht, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S7 H5 L6 P8 D6
-- Captain: Langa Mbeki, re-roll non-First Contact Diplomacy, +1 P, 2311-2316
- USS S'harien, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S7 H5 L6 P7 D6
-- Captain: Saavik, +1 to Hard DC events 2309-2314
- USS Odyssey, Excelsior-class, Green, C6 S6 H4 L5 P6 D6
-- Captain: Langa Mbeki, +1 P, re-roll non-First Contact Diplomacy, re-roll Surprise Encounters, 2313-2318

With this in mind, I would like to assign Chad to the new Excelsior, to train the crew, T'Rinta can go to Sarek, to start a tradition of high-precision Photorp strikes, and Sulu can go to either S'harien or Courageous. Leaniss should get the Enterprise, unless we want to keep Mrr'shan. Personally, I would like to promote Mrr'shan to a GBZ TF commander, and then shift her to EC Operations or Tactical.

Zhang will return 2315Q1, and will join the panel then.

So, our roster will look like this.

@2314:
NCC-2014, Green
+ Captain: Vol Chad
@2315:
USS S'harien, Blooded
+ Captain: Sulu or Zhang or new panel member
@2316:
USS Courageous, Blooded
+ Captain: Sulu or Zhang or new panel member
@2317:
USS Enterprise, Elite
+ Captain: Mrr'shan or Leaniss
USS Sarek, Veteran
+ Captain: T'Rinta
@2319:
USS Odyssey, Blooded?
+ Captain: Leaniss or new panel member

Vehrec · Feb 16, 2017

[X] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

I guess we can go all in.

Goat · Feb 16, 2017

Might as well follow the band wagon.

Vote change. More cruisers!

[X] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

Void Stalker · Feb 16, 2017

AlphaDelta said:
Here are the EC ships.

With this in mind, I would like to assign Chad to the new Excelsior, to train the crew, T'Rinta can go to Sarek, to start a tradition of high-precision Photorp strikes, and Sulu can go to either S'harien or Courageous. Leaniss should get the Enterprise, unless we want to keep Mrr'shan. Personally, I would like to promote Mrr'shan to a GBZ TF commander, and then shift her to EC Operations or Tactical.

Zhang will return 2315Q1, and will join the panel then.

So, our roster will look like this.

@2314:
NCC-2014, Green
+ Captain: Vol Chad
@2315:
USS S'harien, Blooded
+ Captain: Sulu or Zhang or new panel member
@2316:
USS Courageous, Blooded
+ Captain: Sulu or Zhang or new panel member
@2317:
USS Enterprise, Elite
+ Captain: Mrr'shan or Leaniss
USS Sarek, Veteran
+ Captain: T'Rinta
@2319:
USS Odyssey, Blooded?
+ Captain: Leaniss or new panel member

I think we will have another 2 explorer corps excelsiors in there, possibly one of the four finishing 2315.

kyuden said:
On the impacts of the treaty and the next snakepit.

With Syndicate resilience halved for as long as the Cardassians think it is valuable to uphold the treaty I think the next Snakepit should focus on doubling down on kicking (the Syndicate). We can't be sure how long we will have this window of opportunity.

On the Gabriel Expanse, it's a first come first served deal. Starbases, outposts and colonies as fast as we can build them. So the next Snakepit should focus on churning out as many as we can.

But there is still the Ambassador project. Which has been planned for such a long time.

And all this to buy with next to no pp and a political crisis, yay.

Something is going to have to give, and I suspect that it is likely to be pushback on the Ambassador.

Ambassador needs to be this year as we need the RP gains from it to keep all tech teams active, also the sooner we start the project the sooner we hit our goal which will give us some PP. That and each year it is delayed is another year before we can start making more of them.

CircleTheSkies · Feb 16, 2017

A question - which races, exactly, count as "Cardassian clients"? Are they specifically named, or is there a clause of "if a government has made a formal declaration of allegiance to us" or the like? And what happens if, say, a client decides to break away and dissolve their ties to Cardassia? Is there a process for new 'clients' to be added to the list?

But yeah, pointing out to the Dawiar how Cardassia is effectively restricting whom their clients speak with, combined with an emphasis on how the Federation is quite happy with races expanding and exploring as they see fit might bear some quite reasonable fruit (see "break away", above

).

Meanwhile, for the Yrillians, the Sydraxians being unable to raid in Federation space suggests that if they were to join the Federation as an affiliate, their shipping too would be secured by that agreement.

Thors_Alumni · Feb 16, 2017

[X] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

Void Stalker · Feb 16, 2017

CircleTheSkies said:
A question - which races, exactly, count as "Cardassian clients"? Are they specifically named, or is there a clause of "if a government has made a formal declaration of allegiance to us" or the like? And what happens if, say, a client decides to break away and dissolve their ties to Cardassia? Is there a process for new 'clients' to be added to the list?

But yeah, pointing out to the Dawiar how Cardassia is effectively restricting whom their clients speak with, combined with an emphasis on how the Federation is quite happy with races expanding and exploring as they see fit might bear some quite reasonable fruit (see "break away", above ).

Meanwhile, for the Yrillians, the Sydraxians being unable to raid in Federation space suggests that if they were to join the Federation as an affiliate, their shipping too would be secured by that agreement.

Yeah an exact definition for us, is it any that are considered in game term clients of theirs? Or is it only for their current clients?

Also tally:
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 1197 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6

[19] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel
[9] Plan Gabriel Warzone

Plan: ◈Gabriel Warzone
aeqnai
Ato
Chaos Blade
Derek58
HearthBorn
JesseJ
Nix
NullVoid
UberJJK

[1] Ask the Vulcans for one of their Soyuz's.

10ebbor10

Total No. of Voters: 29

AlphaDelta · Feb 16, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Yeah an exact definition for us, is it any that are considered in game term clients of theirs? Or is it only for their current clients?

Also tally:
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 1197 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6

[19] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

Plan: ◈Heavy Investment in Gabriel
AKuz
AlphaDelta
anon_user
Briefvoice
Gingganz
Goat
Iron Wolf
Joshrand1982
Kaze
Kyushiro
Leila Hann
Muer'ci
Nervos Belli
pheonix89
Random Member
Shard
UbeOne
Vehrec
Void Stalker

[9] Plan Gabriel Warzone

Plan: ◈Gabriel Warzone
aeqnai
Ato
Chaos Blade
Derek58
HearthBorn
JesseJ
Nix
NullVoid
UberJJK

[1] Ask the Vulcans for one of their Soyuz's.

10ebbor10

Total No. of Voters: 29

That swung fast.

pheonix89 · Feb 16, 2017

Speaking of ways to creatively endrun that clause: Take a look at the relative positions of various systems. It would actually be substantially harder to keep the Dawair from picking up federation subspace broadcast media than it would to be to expose them to it. We can media blitz them and deflect any complaints with "I'm sorry, there's no clause in there mandating that we modify intrafederation broadcast infrastructure".

Jrin · Feb 16, 2017

[X] Plan Heavy Investment in Gabriel

We should add one Starbase in the middle of GBZ as early as possible it would be very useful as an high defence repair and supply base considering how big Gabriel Expanse is.
We can't keep having our ships travelling back such long distance due to low ammo, damages and fuel.

Having that Starbase at the start would negate the time wasted travelling back and forth since the Cardassians can still reoccupy the system we vacated after kicking them out, not to mention possible ambushes on the way back which is easy due to damaged ships with low ammo and fuel.
I guess I want a more stronger bite and hold strategy for the first couple months.

Forgothrax · Feb 16, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
If we have enough pp to push anyone this year, it should be the Yrillians. They seem to be on the brink of civil war, likely on the grounds of a pro-Cardassia pro-Federation split. Given how much of the Yrillian fleet strength is tied up in individual captains, the more Yrillians there are that think favorably of the Federation, the more ships will be on the side we are inclined to support.

To be perfectly honest, I am pretty sure that the Yrillian Civil War is what will kick off an all-out war between the Federation and Cardassia. The Cardassians will back a side, and will send them support through the Gabriel Expanse. And unless we want to have our entire coreward border dominated by Cardassian clients, we will need to support a faction as well. So I think there is a very good chance of that igniting the war, and as such want as many Yrillians on our side beforehand as possible.

Do you have an Oneiros quote that says specifically that pushing the Yrillians will have an effect? Because the last time we had a blocked species...

Forgothrax said:
Hey boss, while you're here... Is there any point to diolopushing the Bajorans right now? Is the "obstruction" something to do with not having enough diplomacy points, or will it require narrative resolution?

OneirosTheWriter said:
You'll still get the points, but there is a "no" block in the way. Would require a narrative resolution, but at the moment, the Cardassians and Cardassian aligned blocs within Bajor simply won't allow the change in affiliations.

I would also add that the FDS, as much as we hate on them, isn't stupid. Neither is the Council. The Yrillians will be rationally viewed as a tipping point and I would expect that resources will be bent their way. The Dawiar as well, most likely (given the FDS's comment).

If we had to push somebody, I'd either target the Graetarians or the LED Paddah. The former because the Cardassians have basically guaranteed that we can't turn the Sydraxians into a neutral party if war breaks out, and reducing their access to raw materials is probably going to reduce the number of ships they can field against us. The KP because if the Cardassians decided to be daring and sent them envoys (despite the long trip), it would be easy to turn them against us.

Can't wait for 2315... 2310s Diplomacy finishes that year and then we get a free non-Affiliate roll every year.

Thors_Alumni · Feb 16, 2017

Next excelsior that gets commissioned and needs captain not already assigned should have Captain Straak assigned to it and have him sent to the GBZ.

kyuden · Feb 16, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Ambassador needs to be this year as we need the RP gains from it to keep all tech teams active, also the sooner we start the project the sooner we hit our goal which will give us some PP. That and each year it is delayed is another year before we can start making more of them.

Don't get me wrong I like the Ambassador, I want the Ambassador.

But put together a timeline starting from today and heading out to when the first Ambassador is done, then decide when you think war with the Cardassians will happen.

If you think war will happen before we get the Ambassadors into production then it is logical to delay the Ambassador for options that will more directly impact the expected war. If you think war can be delayed then the Ambassador becomes a better choice.

I also don't think there is anything inherently wrong with deactivating a couple of tech teams, sure we'd prefer to keep them all active and just keep on adding more of them. But sometimes we can't, so we prioritise the tech teams we need and shutter a couple that we don't.

Briefvoice · Feb 16, 2017

Jrin said:
We should add one Starbase in the middle of GBZ as early as possible it would be very useful as an high defence repair and supply base considering how big Gabriel Expanse is.
We can't keep having our ships travelling back such long distance due to low ammo, damages and fuel.

We might want to wait until things settle out and we know a good site to put it. Preferable next to a colony of some sort. So I think this year is too early to start one.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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