[X][AMARKI] Fleet Workhorse - +1 S, +1 P, +1 D, 30br/20sr (Final figure C4 S3 H3 L4 P4 D4 - 100br/100sr)
[X][HONIANI] Deny
[X][ANDOR] Deny
[X][RIGEL] As heavy combat forces, using their Megatortoises and Turtleships in pitched battle.
 
Quick question about the Ambassador class. If we go with the Honian option and put the Ambassador class on hold for a year. How many slips would be ready to go when that happens. I mean not building any more ships and keeping the building slips on standbye until the time is right to build them.

Personally, starting the Ambassador will be priority #1 for me in the Snakepit. It's not about putting the Ambassador class on hold for a year. It's about putting Orion legislation on hold for a year. If we only have 38 pp to spend, I'm spending it on the Ambassador.

That said, I'm a little unsure how many years of research the Ambassador will even take. I had been planning on 2 and keeping the SF 3m t berth open for it. The one the Atuin is going to come out of.
 
[X][HONIANI] Jennifer Zhang
[X][ANDOR] Deny
[X][AMARKI] Fleet Strike Force - +1 C, +1 L, +1 D, 30br/20sr (Final figure C5 S2 H3 L5 P3 D4 - 100br/100sr)
(retconned to 70sr)
[X][RIGEL] As heavy combat forces, using their Megatortoises and Turtleships in pitched battle.
 
Why are you prioritizing starting the Ambassador this year?

1. Because we specifically arranged our research schedule and which teams would be free in order to be able to start it this year. There was a specific Research turn vote on it where people understood that an Ambassador start date was what they were voting on.
2. Because starting the Ambassador prototype is the ten year goal that Starfleet set for itself, and achieving it early may well pay for itself in political goodwill, the earlier the more reward.
3. Because I think it's one of the most worthwhile things we can do. We see that our allies, enemies, and threatening neutrals are all pushing new ship designs. We need to stay ahead of the game, and the technology is there.
 
@ Iron Wolf

Yaaay they rescued her! Also, I admired the little touches in the omake. like Apiata pronouns and of course... "Bro." :D

As for why he's in the field, one half ~Classic Trope~, the other is given how the President will throw him into the nearest sun if it goes wrong, he wants to be directly supervising. :V
Knowing how Oyana performs when she's mad, I'm not entirely sure she'd bother with a spaceship to do the toss, either. :D

===============================

Guys, giving away a Constellation is a terrible idea! We are stretched tight with the Gabriel Expanse and Apinae sector and you want to give away a ship? They aren't even giving us any pp for it, just a smattering of resources. It's an insulting offer. Why punch a hole in the heart of our fleet distribution? We could literally scrap the ship any time we wanted and get pretty much the same result.
To be fair, Briefvoice, this is much more advantageous than scrapping the ship because it's still in service in a worst-case scenario. We've called up an Andorian Constellation before, during the Biophage Crisis, remember?

I'm on the fence about the idea, myself.

Other comments in general:

I voted "Workhorse" for Amarkia because if they're going to have a bunch of new colonies in the Gabriel Expanse, they could use some good support ships. And frankly, I like to push them away from martial and and to something a little more peaceful in their ship design. You know what they say, if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
The flip side of that is that the Federation at large could really use a good hammer. Because when you don't have a hammer, you tend to chase yourself around in circles coming up with tortured explanations for why the pointy bit in metal in front of you isn't really a nail.

So honestly, keeping the Amarki hammery feels to me less like encouraging them to be unbalanced and more to encourage them to stick to their comparative advantage. Besides, in the Gabriel Expanse they'd be working with the Apiata, who have pretty good science vessels of their own, remember?

True.

But...this is a culture we know so little about. Its just so sad if we have to pass up on this opportunity because of this endless fucking grind with the Syndicate.
You're totally right. I hope we get another chance to do something like this. Frankly I don't understnd why the exchange program is so politically expensive in the first place, but... [sigh]

Holy crap, Honiani have a C7 S5 D5 explorer and the Seyek have C9 S6 D5 explorer! Qloathi, despite having an penchant for exploration, have explorers about as slow as the Rigellian Megatortoise.
Which is why we discovered them, not the other way around. They're not in a hurry to get places, the journey is, like, half the point of getting there, man... :D

Apiata a genuine tier 2 power as expected. And holy hell, they have more engineering ships (38) than all of Federation combined (31), leading to a ludicrous amount of spc! What the heck are the bees up to?
Apiata engineering ships may be hella-small (WORKER BEES!), or they may be counting as engineering ships a lot of stuff that we'd count as civilian ships?

I don't really see why they wouldn't just switch over to Renaissances, so this should just be refits. I guess keeping them too combat-focused might just blow up on our face, and since the Strike Force update wouldn't be as good as a Rennie, Workhorse it is.
One thing we're trying to do with the MWCO is prevent an outcome where all the member races start building identical ships and we don't get the benefits of diversity and specialization. Letting the Amarki refit their cruisers into something that has combat performance midway between a Constitution-B and a Renaissance preserves their specialization. Having them keep said cruisers at a level where a Jaldun probably still outperforms them in combat seems like a bad idea to me.

That Seyek ship has got to be a typo. No one has a Combat 9 ship right now.
The Lorgots hit Combat 7 on a 1.8-megaton chassis, and modern Federation ships can manage Combat 5 on what is otherwise a fairly well-balanced one-megaton chassis. I wouldn't be surprised if you could fit Combat 9 on 2.3 to 2.5-megaton platform, if you were designing a "battleship" and not an "explorer."

So I've been looking at the spreadsheet screenshot, seeing if anything jumps out about Member World priorities. Things I've noticed:

1. The Apiaita and Indorians have no hospital ships for some reason. Should we suggest they design one, or build a Federation design once we've completed that?
Probably the latter, but right now they are very, VERY busy building urgently needed warships, so I don't imagine they'd be interested in building our big dedicated hospital ships in the short term.

2. The Apiata seem to use their engineering ships as replacements for freighters, which is why they have so many of them. Is there a reason they do that? Should we suggest a freighter design?
Maybe- but, again, it may well be that the Apiata honestly think that a good cargo ship should have some heavy machine tooling and construction capability of its own. Given that they're trying to expand rapidly, that seems only fair.

Is there any idea what year we might start building the Kepler prototype in? Approximately? I'd like to keep an eye out towards when we might need to reserve the resources and berth space.
Probably not for several years? I'm pretty sure we aren't being coerced into starting the project by 2316 on account of people swarming for that idea on the tactical vote.

Quick question about the Ambassador class. If we go with the Honian option and put the Ambassador class on hold for a year. How many slips would be ready to go when that happens. I mean not building any more ships and keeping the building slips on standbye until the time is right to build them.
...Why would we do that?

We have to research a tech, then build a prototype, and the prototype will take like six years to finish. Many of our berths could complete one or two whole Excelsiors, maybe even three, in the time it will take before we can start mass-producing Ambassadors. Moreover, we'll know six years in advance the exact date we can begin Ambassador mass production, just like we knew 4.5 years in advance the exact date we were going to be able to start Renaissance mass production (2314Q2).
 
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[X][HONIANI] Pick any Commander - Officer will spend 2 years with Honiani, will become an Explorer Panel Captain upon return, gain +25 with Honiani, Costs 10pp (Jennifer Zhang)

Btw, does anyone else find it odd that we're getting the Honiani in the NWCO, but not the Seyek? They've seemed relatively quiet for someone right next to the Cardassian/Bajorian border. I have to wonder if the Cardassians are chatting them up to try to pull them away from us as well, just much quieter than the Celos issue now going on.
 
As for the vote...

1) I've been sticking up for the Constellations for a long time, so pensioning them off isn't something I should vote for.

2) The Amarki fleet has a role and is pretty good at it- as fighting ships. I'd rather double down on that, all things considered, among other things because they need the combat upgrade to be reliably capable of matching the performance of a current generation Jaldun.

3) I'm kind of torn on this one. However, going by the statlines in the opening post of the Ship Design Board thread, I'm pretty sure that the talk about the "speed of their escorts" is the result of the Rigellians discovering some kind of exotic mushroom. I kind of wish there were an option for "using their Megatortoises and Turtleships as generalist powerhouses," one that didn't emphasize turning them into battlewagons.

4) The Honiani thing is just really harsh, man, with us having to spend 10pp for a modest relations boost and a narrative bonus. It's exactly the sort of thing we want to do, but the pp cost under present circumstances is so steep that it flips what would be a no-brainer in peacetime one way into a no-brainer the other way. I can't bring myself to vote against it, but I'm afraid to vote for it either. :cry:

----------------------

[X][ANDOR] Deny

[X][AMARKI] Fleet Strike Force - +1 C, +1 L, +1 D, 30br/20sr (Final figure C5 S2 H3 L5 P3 D4 - 100br/100sr)

[X][RIGEL] As heavy combat forces, using their Megatortoises and Turtleships in pitched battle.

[][HONIANI] Pick any Commander - Officer will spend 2 years with Honiani, will become an Explorer Panel Captain upon return, gain +25 with Honiani, Costs 10pp (Jennifer Zhang)

Btw, does anyone else find it odd that we're getting the Honiani in the NWCO, but not the Seyek? They've seemed relatively quiet for someone right next to the Cardassian/Bajorian border. I have to wonder if the Cardassians are chatting them up to try to pull them away from us as well, just much quieter than the Celos issue now going on.
That... is a distinct and alarming possibility... o_O

EDIT: Now, presumably the "relations number" we have with the Seyek indicates some degree of ongoing knowledge of the state of our relations with them, presumably the Federation Diplomatic Service DOES have regular contact with them, and that 222/500 number suggests that the Seyek would be unlikely to attack us. Plus, Seyek space is close to Lapycorias and the heart of our CBZ deployments, so we'd probably see actual Seyek activity if things changed significantly. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Seyek went neutral on us, something they might have one anyway.
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if you could fit Combat 9 on 2.3 to 2.5-megaton platform, if you were designing a "battleship" and not an "explorer."
That can easily be accomplished. It was before the switch to frames but at one point I had an Ambassador prototype with C13 and lots of Militarization. There was also my hilarious unrealistic "Flying Gun" with:
Flying Gun [400kt]
C6 S0 H1 L1 P0 D4
Cost[40br,45sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-1, T-1], Militarization 13​
so if you are willing to make the sacrifices, in with size or Science/Presence, it can be done.
 
1. Because we specifically arranged our research schedule and which teams would be free in order to be able to start it this year. There was a specific Research turn vote on it where people understood that an Ambassador start date was what they were voting on.
2. Because starting the Ambassador prototype is the ten year goal that Starfleet set for itself, and achieving it early may well pay for itself in political goodwill, the earlier the more reward.
3. Because I think it's one of the most worthwhile things we can do. We see that our allies, enemies, and threatening neutrals are all pushing new ship designs. We need to stay ahead of the game, and the technology is there.
I can understand #1 being the biggest reason for doing it now, but #2 and #3 are not going to be significantly affected by starting a year later. I guess in terms of potential PP payoff, but there's a chance Jennifer might bring in some PP as well. And with the Cardassians agressively moving on minor powers, I think it's a good idea to use Jennifer to try and get more positive relations with the Honiani, since I suspect she'll be a +Diplomacy asset throughout her term in addition to the +25.

That being said I understand your desire to strike while the political iron is hot, so to speak.


@ Iron Wolf
Yaaay they rescued her! Also, I admired the little touches in the omake. like Apiata pronouns and of course... "Bro." :D
Thanks! To be clear, I am not sure all Apiata use gender-neutral pronouns (in fact the opposite, I think), Sharizz does.

Sometimes I slip though and accidentally use feminine terms, I am not sure why.

Sidebar, I've been digging through past posts regarding the Syndicate campaign. There's a few posts along the general lines as this one from Leila (not to single you out) and in context of the Celos situation are kinda funny:
Even if we fail to destroy them completely (which we probably will, this is a criminal organization older than the Federation itself), we can inflict sufficient losses to convince them [the Syndicate] that working with the Cardassians isn't worth it.
It's a tense negotiation on Celos between Cardassians, the Syndicate-backed Cleosian government, and Starfleet. Everyone's gesturing wildly. There's screaming, shouting, Stesk has pulled out a metal folding chair and is brandishing it agressively.

*Record Scratch*
*Free-frame*

A Cardassian turns to the camera, "Yup, that's me. You're probably wondering how I ended up in this situation."
 
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I can understand #1 being the biggest reason for doing it now, but #2 and #3 are not going to be significantly affected by starting a year later. I guess in terms of potential PP payoff, but there's a chance Jennifer might bring in some PP as well. And with the Cardassians agressively moving on minor powers, I think it's a good idea to use Jennifer to try and get more positive relations with the Honiani, since I suspect she'll be a +Diplomacy asset throughout her term in addition to the +25.

That being said I understand your desire to strike while the political iron is hot, so to speak.

I don't know why you keep talking about the Honiani. If people want to do the Honiani thing as well, that's fine. My position is that we can do that and the Ambassador and it'll be something else that gets the chopping block. Probably buying extra influence before reopening the anti-Syndicate legislation.
 
That can easily be accomplished. It was before the switch to frames but at one point I had an Ambassador prototype with C13 and lots of Militarization. There was also my hilarious unrealistic "Flying Gun" with:
Flying Gun [400kt]
C6 S0 H1 L1 P0 D4
Cost[40br,45sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-1, T-1], Militarization 13​
so if you are willing to make the sacrifices, in with size or Science/Presence, it can be done.
You're right, and in addition to being right...

What I'm getting at is that a 'modern explorer' design of, say, 2.5 million tons would almost certainly have Combat 7 as like the minimum. If your priority is to design a heavy battleship that happens to have some Science/Presence, as opposed to building the Federation's rather luxurious idea of what constitutes a "balanced design..."

Combat 9 is not that much of a stretch.
 
As for the vote...

1) I've been sticking up for the Constellations for a long time, so pensioning them off isn't something I should vote for.

2) The Amarki fleet has a role and is pretty good at it- as fighting ships. I'd rather double down on that, all things considered, among other things because they need the combat upgrade to be reliably capable of matching the performance of a current generation Jaldun.

3) I'm kind of torn on this one. However, going by the statlines in the opening post of the Ship Design Board thread, I'm pretty sure that the talk about the "speed of their escorts" is the result of the Rigellians discovering some kind of exotic mushroom. I kind of wish there were an option for "using their Megatortoises and Turtleships as generalist powerhouses," one that didn't emphasize turning them into battlewagons.

4) The Honiani thing is just really harsh, man, with us having to spend 10pp for a modest relations boost and a narrative bonus. It's exactly the sort of thing we want to do, but the pp cost under present circumstances is so steep that it flips what would be a no-brainer in peacetime one way into a no-brainer the other way. I can't bring myself to vote against it, but I'm afraid to vote for it either. :cry:

----------------------

[X][ANDOR] Deny

[X][AMARKI] Fleet Strike Force - +1 C, +1 L, +1 D, 30br/20sr (Final figure C5 S2 H3 L5 P3 D4 - 100br/100sr)

[X][RIGEL] As heavy combat forces, using their Megatortoises and Turtleships in pitched battle.

That... is a distinct and alarming possibility... o_O

EDIT: Now, presumably the "relations number" we have with the Seyek indicates some degree of ongoing knowledge of the state of our relations with them, presumably the Federation Diplomatic Service DOES have regular contact with them, and that 222/500 number suggests that the Seyek would be unlikely to attack us. Plus, Seyek space is close to Lapycorias and the heart of our CBZ deployments, so we'd probably see actual Seyek activity if things changed significantly. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Seyek went neutral on us, something they might have one anyway.

The Seyek may also just be less exploration minded. Plus, they are hosting the Bajoran government in exile, so there's at least some indication that they don't like the Cardassian Occupation.
 
I don't know why you keep talking about the Honiani. If people want to do the Honiani thing as well, that's fine. My position is that we can do that and the Ambassador and it'll be something else that gets the chopping block. Probably buying extra influence before reopening the anti-Syndicate legislation.
Oh, fair enough. I misunderstood. It's that voters seem to be voting against the Honiani on the assumption we won't be able to start an Ambassador next year, I unfairly lumped you in with them.
 
What are the pro's and con's of dropping the anti-Syndicate legislation. I ask this because this is literally the only other choice we have and I think having the Foreign exchange is just as important if not more so due to the Cardassians doing what they are doing. Unless you can find a PP point somewhere we are going to have to dump one of them and the Anti-Syndicate Legislation is it if we want to keep the Ambassador on schedule.
 
Yeah, I'm voting against the Honiani on the assumption it means we'll pass less-effective anti-Syndicate legislation!
What do you mean by Less effective?
... which we could still do by delaying the Ambassador.
I don't think delaying the Ambassador is a good Idea. ]

Anyway I had another question about the Honiani. instead of refusing them why don't we tell them that we cant do it this year but if they ask again next year we can definitely do it.
 
The Seyek may also just be less exploration minded.
That was kind of what I was getting at. If, to them, the proper use of a two million ton ship is "it's a battleship," then they would accordingly build a battleship. It's a perfectly reasonable decision.

The Federation idea of a 'balanced statline' is based on a very pacifist-exploratory concept of what large starships are supposed to do.

What are the pro's and con's of dropping the anti-Syndicate legislation. I ask this because this is literally the only other choice we have and I think having the Foreign exchange is just as important if not more so due to the Cardassians doing what they are doing. Unless you can find a PP point somewhere we are going to have to dump one of them and the Anti-Syndicate Legislation is it if we want to keep the Ambassador on schedule.
The advantage of anti-Syndicate legislation is that it lets us do stuff that inflicts greater harm on the Syndicate, defeating it faster. Given that the Syndicate campaign is a massive black hole devouring Starfleet's political support for doing anything else, getting this horrible mess over with as soon as possible might be a good idea.

The disadvantage is, well, it costs 30pp.

That said, the problem is that the pacifists have a lien on 15pp, the legislation costs 30, and the Ambassador costs... enough. Neither of those last two is something we want to give up on. We can probably manage (assuming we find even 1pp between now and then), but not if we spend the extra 10pp.

Remember that "outreach to the Honiani" is not the same as "all Federation diplomacy everywhere gets a boost." Even if "all Federation diplomacy gets a boost" would be worth a lot of political points total, this specific program of outreach to the Honiani may not be worth the (quite high) attached price.

It's like, my car is more important to me than my computer. But that doesn't mean I should be willing to spend $1000 on some kind of fancy upgrade for the car, at the price of not replacing a broken computer.

Diplomatic outreach is important to the Federation, but that doesn't mean literally every political price related to diplomatic outreach should be paid, especially before we start spending political capital on other things.

What do you mean by Less effective?
We already have some legislation against the Syndicate in place; we'd have more if we get the legislation amendedd this year, giving us more options and resources. So without the amendment... "less effective."

Alternatively, if we spent like ALL the pp on it, we could buy extra Influence and have more to spend on the amendment, which would make it even MORE effective than a 'merely normal' amendment.

Anyway I had another question about the Honiani. instead of refusing them why don't we tell them that we cant do it this year but if they ask again next year we can definitely do it.
I'd love to do that, but realistically that would require a special write-in vote that has almost no chance of winning at this time. Also, it's generally not a great idea to try and turn every single vote into a 'best of both words' situation, because it leads to fragmentation and bickering over wording.
 
What do you mean by Less effective?

I don't think delaying the Ambassador is a good Idea. ]

Anyway I had another question about the Honiani. instead of refusing them why don't we tell them that we cant do it this year but if they ask again next year we can definitely do it.

Amending the legislation is two part. One for getting the council session to pass the amendment, and the other for accumulating influence to direct the changes. We purchased some influence last turn, but if possible we would like to both get more influence and do the amendment this turn. It's 30 pp for the amendment, and 20pp for the influence. So if we take the Honiani and are dedicated to starting the Ambassador, it's unlikely we'll be able to afford 20 pp to spend on more influence.
 
Honestly, it's unlikely we could have afforded the extra influence and the legislation and the Ambassador project in the same turn anyway.

EDIT: The Honiani thing is cheaper than any one of those three things- but if we pay for it, we're going to struggle to manage even two out of the three things, and all three is pretty much out of the question.
 
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You know, we still have to have a vote on who will captain the Odyssey. I wonder if Oneiros will torment us more by having that vote before he reveals the outcome of the Enterprise mission and the Celos negotiations.
 
I can design a C9 H5 all 8s explorer, sure. It just costs 7/9/6 in crew and 300br/240sr. And it's 3100kt. Not surprised someone else has one.
 
Sidebar on the Seyek 'battleship' - I am p. sure it also has a respectable S score, so it's more like an offence oriented Explorer than a true battleship.
 
Well arguably, but having a decent science score is kind of necessary for a Trek warship, because you need good sensors and (in the general case but not the Seyek case) counter-cloaking.

The only stat a warship can really afford to treat as a true 'dump stat' is Presence.
 
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